Tamper Proof / Resistant outlets in 2009.

[TallW]

I found out today that for new construction in 09 the NEC 08 rules say you need to use tamper resistant outlet receptacles, the ones with the little door over the plug blade holes.

One bummer is the nice 20A receptacles are $2 or less, the 20A receptacles with the tamper doors on them are $7 or $8 (individually) at HD. They did not have a contractor pack.

This means I will have a nice bucket of never used 20A receptacles along with a few handfuls of 15A and 20A GFIs... (opened boxes, some already installed).

TallW

 

[rsanter]

please elaborate...
in the garage?
in the house?
outside?

bob

 

[Marcusr13]

I purchased TR outlets 15 amp ones for $.99 and GFCI TR for $8

 

[TallW]

More Details:

[I posted this out here so hopefully somebody else doesnt end up with $150 worth of non-complying GFIs and receptacle parts.]

For Minnesota anyway: http://www.electricity.state.mn.us/pdf/rei_inspection_checklist.pdf

Page 2: "03 NEC 406.11 All 1 25-volt, 15- and 20- amp receptacles installed in
dwelling units shall be listed tamper-resistant. This includes receptacles
installed outdoors, in basements and in garages."

My inspector asked if I knew this. He said for new construction this is the new rule. I asked him "so that means basically everything they sell at the store is useless?". He said you can replace an existing outlet with the old style, but any "new" construction needs the new tamper resistant style. [If the little doors dont hold up in my case I will have a bucket of old style 20A receptacles to swap back in if needed].

Talking to a guy who just built his own house recently, he said electricians are able to use up their inventory of old receptacles. That does not apply to my case since I am not hiring it done.

Reading through the 9 page doc I linked to above was kind of interesting. Of course it does not answer all questions, and the answer to some questions sort of depends on which expert you ask.

TallW

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

...but how many jurisdictions adopt and enforce the *latest* NEC edition...and how many of those invoke the whole NEC? Although Mark Early of the NFPA will quickly tell you that the NEC is invoked in all 50 states and the US territories, he fails to tell you that if one county in a state invokes the NEC, that he includes that in his tally......and that most jurisdictions adopt parts of the NEC, and many older editions. To determine if this latest requirement re: receptacles is applicable to you - you need to learn what edition of the NEC your jurisdiction invokes, and then -- what parts!

 

[TallW]

Yes. Check your local rules first.

 

[nate379]

Not a requirement here yet.

 

[judgethis]

Yah, my builder informed me of this, will be putting them in my garage also. He said once its been inspected I could change them out though if I didnt like it. Oh well if thats what I need to get 'er done thats what I'll do.

 

[Fast Orange]

If you don't like the TP /WP recepticals,you're really going to hate the changes regarding arc-fault and gfi breakers.Basically,almost every single pole breaker in your home/garage panel will be either a combination arc-fault or a gfi breaker.In short-every 120V circuit breaker in your panel is going to cost about 10 times as much under the 2008 code,if that portion of the code is adopted in your area.For a typical 200A service,you're talking about $1000 MORE. EVERY receptical in your garage,basement,kitchen and bathroom will have to be GFCI.Every breaker in the living space will have to be arc fault.According to the breaker manufacturers,there will be no problems with nuisance trips-yeah,right.

 

[Tscott]

You would think that millions of folks were being killed every day by these dangerous electrical outlets. I can kind of understand GFCI outlets needed for wet areas to protect stupid people from themselves, but how far are they gonna go? The next step will be a locking cover for all outlets. I think they are solving a problem that does not really exist.

Tom

 

[Torque1st]

The next step will be nothing but 12VDC at 50mA available at any point in the home. We will all be required to buy new energy insufficient appliances to comply with the EnerSafeNazi rules.

 

[PAToyota]

Personally, I have a problem with trying to save people from every possible mistake they can make. Life isn't perfectly safe and as you pass legislation to keep people safe they end up thinking less and less and are liable to do themselves in anyway.

 

[Torque1st]

Someone in China will make a fortune manufacturing el-cheapo plastic safety covers with breakaway covers.

 

[tfi racing]

I think they are solving a problem that does not really exist.

Tom

Precisely.Millions of engineers world wide are sitting idle with nothing to do.Better dream up a potential hazard so they can get back to work,we can't have them solving REAL problems now,can we?Better off to have the so-called brains toiling on useless solutions to implausible hazards,after all its for the safety of the dimwitted,they must be preserved at all costs!Call now,operators are standing by!

 

[Tscott]

Well, I am glad I'm not the only one. I feel like society is being designed around the lowest common denominator, and it is killing us. What ever happened to survival of the fittest. Leave it up to the smartest species to break the laws of nature and degrade into a lower life form.

Tom

Oh and I just saw the movie idiocracy, and I am offically scared. In a few decades they might not be too far from the truth.

 

[StealthM8]

It's a statistical fact that half the people in the world are below average intelligence.

Which side of the mean are you on? Remember there's someone else on the other side.

 

[gatewaysysop]

It's a statistical fact that half the people in the world are below average intelligence.

That's true, not because half the people in the world are idiots (although sometimes I'd almost believe that), but because of how the normal distribution (the so-called bell curve) is characterized. No matter what the average IQ is, 50% of the distribution will always be below the mean, by construction.

There's a blurb in one of Sagan's books about how ... Reagan, I believe, was once shocked to find out that half the people in the U.S. had below average intelligence.

Good stuff.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

It's a statistical fact that half the people in the world are below average intelligence.

Which side of the mean are you on? Remember there's someone else on the other side.

"It's a statistical fact that half the people in the world are below average intelligence."

This is as good a Berra-ism as they come

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

I for one am glad that they continually make things safer and require safer construction technologies to be used.

I'm on the plus side of that bell curve in about any room you can put me in this side of a Mensa convention, but that doesn't mean I can't become the ground leg of a circuit given the wrong circumstances. Worse yet, the same thing could happen to my kids. As far as annoying outlets...try living in a house where your wife has decided that she has to put in one of those plastic child protective outlet guards in EVERY SINGLE FRICKEN outlet in the house that doesn't have something plugged into it. It's a PITA!

I just picture all of the men in 1880 sitting around the saloon, telling each other it was B.S. that people wouldn't let them make chimneys out of wood anymore. Or the cats in the 30's complaining they were going to get stuck with all kinds of knobs and tubes because romex had been invented. Or my Dad bitching about smoke alarms.

I mean based on the conventional logic of this thread, what was wrong with fuse boxes? Why can't we use them anymore? Bunch of mamby pamby government interventionalists? No...they just invented a better way and decided that should be used for new construction.

It's called progress and is not evil in its own right.

Phil

 

[Marcusr13]

I agree with some of the points. What's wrong with sharing neutrals? It has worked for several years. Will it work with AFCI and GFCI breakers, NO! As far as natural selection is concerned, that's why there are natural disasters.

However, I am in the middle of rewiring my house, thanks to aluminum wiring and the old folks who split up the circuits, but I have an 8 month old son. My wife has put those stupid covers on every outlet. This keeps my boy safe, but I have to whip out the Gerber to get those things off. As I am prying those things off, I realize, if I slip it is my @$$ that will get the beauty of 120 volts. I have since bought those TP outlets. They are the same quality, only 3 times the price. But it is well worth it not to pry those covers off and risk a good slip.

The funny thing is, working in the electrical retail business, 3 different counties enforce 3 different NEC's. As far as I'm concerned, NEC2005 covered just about everything.

 

[PAToyota]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

[snip]

It's called progress and is not evil in its own right.

I'll agree with what you are saying up to a point. I agree with the GFCI outlets in wet locations because even a reasonably intelligent person can slip up and make a mistake.

My problem is when things get to the point where people have to think less and less. And I realize that can be entirely subjective - what may be obvious to one person may not be so obvious to the next one. However, I've seen a few studies that actually show people taking greater risks with "safer" equipment because they are lulled into a false sense of security.

It can be a difficult question as to how far things should go.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

I'll agree with what you are saying up to a point. I agree with the GFCI outlets in wet locations because even a reasonably intelligent person can slip up and make a mistake.

My problem is when things get to the point where people have to think less and less. And I realize that can be entirely subjective - what may be obvious to one person may not be so obvious to the next one. However, I've seen a few studies that actually show people taking greater risks with "safer" equipment because they are lulled into a false sense of security.

It can be a difficult question as to how far things should go.

I can readily support safety improvements to reduce risk to uninformed individuals - for instance, children. However, many of these *features* result from committee laden with heavy manufacturer representation and marketing agendas - despite ANSI policy and procedures for openness, balance, due process, etc. Look who sits on the CMP for NFPA70 and you will find them disproportionally heavy with manufacturers/producers, while those asserting the "General* category are often paid consultants to the manufacturers. The regulatory body folks are frequently there for a road trip and the doughnuts, and often get wined and dined by the manufacturers. GFCIs is an example of a casualty-based response - while AFCIs are not (besides, they still don;t work correctly or reliably) and although on its face the tamper-resistant receptacles appear to address a potential risk scenario, I'm not convinced that such a measure results from good statistical data - rather - more likely the consequence of a manufacturer looking for a marketing edge.

 

[KMR Construction]

Don't buy tamper proof recepticals at HD. My local electrical supplier sells them for like $.80 vs. %.50 for the old ones

On a side note I have them in my house and its really not that big of a deal. Now the Arc fault breakers are rediculous

 

[tdkkart]

Personally, I have a problem with trying to save people from every possible mistake they can make. Life isn't perfectly safe and as you pass legislation to keep people safe they end up thinking less and less and are liable to do themselves in anyway.

This pretty much sums up the problem. We are breeding a society full of idiots that have no common sense and cannot figure out anything for themselves. Our educational system concentrates on making everyone CEO's which we all know everyone cannot be, yet they have no other skill sets.

As far as children goes, whatever happened to watching your children and warning them off of dangerous situations??

Back in the 80's I worked in an equipment rental shop.
A woman came in and rented a rototiller from us, later in the day as she was returning the tiller she had her 2-ish year old kid with her. The kid had one hand all wrapped up in gauze, which the mother pointed out to me and said,
"you people should put guards on the mufflers on your equipment so that children dont get hurt."

I looked right at her and explained that parents should watch their children, and shouldn't have them anywhere near power equipment.

That said, our daughter nearly lost the tip of a finger when she was a toddler.
She was playing with the foot rest on a recliner as she had done numerous times, only this time she got her finger in the mechanism, nearly pinched her finger off. Totally my fault.

People need to take ownership for their own actions..........

 

[PAToyota]

People need to take ownership for their own actions..........

Exactly. I've certainly done some stupid things through the years - childhood as well as adulthood. For the most part it has taught me some valuable lessons without doing too much permanent damage.

But if you never learn to respect electricity, moving parts, hot things, or whatever other danger I can almost guarantee that you will eventually face a situation where having learned some respect earlier on would have served you well.

Don't even get me started about the whole education system where you can't let Johnny fail because it might hurt his self esteem. Hogwash! Much better that he learns to put forth some effort or he will fail when all that is at risk is his self esteem and some arbitrary grade scores than wait until he is an adult and his failure means he can't keep a job, support himself, or his decision affects those that depended upon him being able to do his job.

 

[rickairmedic]

I have 5 kids and between them they dont have the common sense god gave a rock. What scares me about all the safety **** is that someday my children and others like them will be running things . I agree the school system as well as organised sports are setting these kids up for failure when they grow up ( 2 of the 5 are over 20 ) and have no clue about the realities of life. The same thing has also happened in the Plumbing industry with the crappy new water heaters desighned for idiots who like to store gasoline and paint next to an open flame. I say the herd needs to be thinned .

Rick

 

[PAToyota]

I just heard another story at church today that gave me the shivers...

Friend was telling about another friend whose daughter had gone in for her written (well, computer these days) driver's license test. She's taken it over twelve times. When she goes to take it, the examiner reviews the information and then asks the parent if the child is ADD. Parent answers in the affirmative but is a bit hesitant about it. The examiner exclaims "Oh, if we had known that - we put them in a separate room all to themselves with some background music playing. Removes all distractions." Child passes the test with flying colors...

I was appalled! I exclaimed "AND THIS IS SOMEONE THEY WANT TO GIVE A DRIVER'S LICENSE TO?"

Hell, if you can't pay enough attention to look at a computer screen and answer two dozen questions should you really be behind the wheel of a two ton piece of metal (and plastic) hurtling down the road at 60+ miles an hour?