Banjorear
Well-known member
Gotcha. There is a digital one that pokes outside of the front cover. I'll fool with it and see what happens. Thanks for the tip.
Tankless hot water heater
- Thread starter hosedragger622
- Start date
Gotcha. There is a digital one that pokes outside of the front cover. I'll fool with it and see what happens. Thanks for the tip.
bpj71
Well-known member
CNGsaves....
Unit is http://www.sears.com/ge-geospring-5...p-04232200000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1
Use 220 volts @ 30 amps I think all fittings are standard. Installation requirements;
1) Condensation line and back up need to flow into a drain. The amount of water drained depends on humidity where unit is installed.
2) At least 7 inches of clearance around unit and at least 700 cubic ft of air space in which the area it's installed
3) At least 6 inches of clearance on the top.
4) installation is straight forward and shouldn't cost much more than standard install
When in heat pump mode...it moves a lot if air. My basement only gets moist on humid days and in spring time...haven't had the unit through those seasons yet. So far my basement hasn't dropped below 45 degrees, stays between 45 and 55 in winter.
Do some searching on YouTube...definitely some videos on there. Been installed a little over a month and so far it's been good.
Unit is http://www.sears.com/ge-geospring-5...p-04232200000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1
Use 220 volts @ 30 amps I think all fittings are standard. Installation requirements;
1) Condensation line and back up need to flow into a drain. The amount of water drained depends on humidity where unit is installed.
2) At least 7 inches of clearance around unit and at least 700 cubic ft of air space in which the area it's installed
3) At least 6 inches of clearance on the top.
4) installation is straight forward and shouldn't cost much more than standard install
When in heat pump mode...it moves a lot if air. My basement only gets moist on humid days and in spring time...haven't had the unit through those seasons yet. So far my basement hasn't dropped below 45 degrees, stays between 45 and 55 in winter.
Do some searching on YouTube...definitely some videos on there. Been installed a little over a month and so far it's been good.
Qualitytools
Well-known member
I installed my Tankless a Takagi unit in 2002, and we love it! It has reduced our NG bill by 1/2 and I did the entire install myself after relocating it outside since my old tank type was inside the house. Endless hot water 
Keep in mind that you need to look for one that will handle multiple fixtures running at the same time and make sure that your pipes for both natural gas and water are sized properly. Additionally, I had to call my Gas company and have them replace my old gas meter as it was not adequate for my Tankless addition. by the way it did not cost me anything to have the gas company come out and replace the meter. The gas company replaced my old tank which was running 3/4 gas line by a new meter with 1 1/2 inch line. Last but not least shop around and don't pay retail for the unit. I hope this helps you and others out.
Keep in mind that you need to look for one that will handle multiple fixtures running at the same time and make sure that your pipes for both natural gas and water are sized properly. Additionally, I had to call my Gas company and have them replace my old gas meter as it was not adequate for my Tankless addition. by the way it did not cost me anything to have the gas company come out and replace the meter. The gas company replaced my old tank which was running 3/4 gas line by a new meter with 1 1/2 inch line. Last but not least shop around and don't pay retail for the unit. I hope this helps you and others out.Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
I'm willing to bet that if you look at the stats, homes that burn down from electrical issues probably exceed those that burn from NG/LP/fuel oil.
Not sure how you figure that electric is cheaper than say NG in a cold climate. NG is quite cheap now, and it is EXPENSIVE to heat with straight electricity or even with a heat pump in very cold temps.
Charles
LS6 Tommy
Well-known member
Why would you want to heat hot water?
I was thinking the same thing.
That makes 3 of us...
Tommy
There is nothing cheap about heating anything with electricity :
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/heatcalc.xls
I pay .12 per kW delivered. Not crazy but not cheap, I would ever consider a Electric water heaterif NG is available. Propane can get expensive, last year it was $5 per gallon in my area. Electric starts to make sense and heat pump water heater over tankless.
On tankless still not a fan:
1. Waiting 4-5 minutes for the shower to warm up is not saving much. Actual time in a condo in Florida with electric on demand. Since the owners are rarely there the on demand sorta mkes some sense ??
2.High potential maintenance costs.
3.My NG bill in the summer is $30 with is hot water, dryer and cook top. Lets say I could save 30% ( which maybe a huge stretch) with $10 savings the payback never ever happens with tankless.
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/heatcalc.xls
I pay .12 per kW delivered. Not crazy but not cheap, I would ever consider a Electric water heaterif NG is available. Propane can get expensive, last year it was $5 per gallon in my area. Electric starts to make sense and heat pump water heater over tankless.
On tankless still not a fan:
1. Waiting 4-5 minutes for the shower to warm up is not saving much. Actual time in a condo in Florida with electric on demand. Since the owners are rarely there the on demand sorta mkes some sense ??
2.High potential maintenance costs.
3.My NG bill in the summer is $30 with is hot water, dryer and cook top. Lets say I could save 30% ( which maybe a huge stretch) with $10 savings the payback never ever happens with tankless.
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jives
Well-known member
We have a propane (no NG in our area) Baxi Luna unit that is dual function -- radiant floor and domestic hot water. Never a problem providing sufficient hot water for both, and we have a household of 8 people with 3 bathrooms and a washing machine that runs 24/7. The Baxi replaced a Quietside, which has now been bashed and recalled.
The unit can be a bit fickle, but if you have a knowledgable HVAC guy (or yourself), then you should be all right. We are on a well and have yet to have a problem with hard water buildup or deposits, even though we get colloidal clay in our water if we drain the well too far.
On problem with the on-demand system may be that it may cycle the well pump much more often than if we had a standard 60-80 gal water heater tank. We've been experiencing some glitches in our pump protector and I fear a premature wearing of the protector's circuits.
The unit can be a bit fickle, but if you have a knowledgable HVAC guy (or yourself), then you should be all right. We are on a well and have yet to have a problem with hard water buildup or deposits, even though we get colloidal clay in our water if we drain the well too far.
On problem with the on-demand system may be that it may cycle the well pump much more often than if we had a standard 60-80 gal water heater tank. We've been experiencing some glitches in our pump protector and I fear a premature wearing of the protector's circuits.
^ ^ Thanks for info. Those are pretty much plug & play for normal electric water heater. Price at $1200 is less than I was expecting. The hybrid shown in This Old House episode was different and think they said $2500 but it had stainless steel exchanger.
Friend has house that is all electric so Geospring hybrid might be the solution when old school heater bites the dust.
Here my NG is way to go as 40 gal HWH only $320 and NG is cheap.
bpj71
Well-known member
I actually only paid $550 for mine ...on sale $999...$400 CT instant rebate and 10% off friends and family discount
Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
I'm kinda lost by this statement. The well pump runs to replenish the well pressure tank, which sends water out to the faucets, washer, shower, water heater, etc. Unless you are simply using a bunch more water, possibly due to the unlimited supply of hot water (ie. super long showers), the heater itself cannot cause the well pump to cycle any more often. The well only cycles because water was consumed, you should not be consuming any more water due to the instant water heater.
What is a "pump protector" and how do you "wear the circuits"?
Charles
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mygarageone
Well-known member
+ 2. I don't understand it either ? The volume of flow is determined by the faucet .
kj_mustang
Well-known member
If the well pump is cycling more, than the first thing to check is the pressure tank and switch.
DonPowers
Well-known member
I would be checking the air pressure in the tank if the pump is cycling more.
Could also be a leaky foot valve or other leak in the system if its cycling when you are not running water.
Could also be a leaky foot valve or other leak in the system if its cycling when you are not running water.
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59 wagon man
Well-known member
Randy in Maine
Well-known member
That is about the same thing that runs my radiant floor heat and domestic hot water. It is a little fussy in that it needs to be hooked up EXACTLY as they tell you to. I am 100% pleased.
It takes care of all of our needs and works (on propane) for cheap money. I don't know of anyone that can afford or would even want electric heat in New England.
I represented Rinnai in my business for 20 yrs. Banjo, you are using your unit incorrectly. What model is it? With a tank water heater if you do not have enough hot water you go down and turn up the thermostat. Doing so with a tankless, regardless of manuf, is exactly the opposite of what you should do. Keep in mind that if you sit in a bathtub that is over 105* you are no longer bathing. You are parboiling. Your shower valves are set by code at a max of 112*. Setting your Rinnai at 135 reduces the hot water flow mix with cold water to arrive at your use temp. During the winter I run mine at 120 max. Last winter I ran it at 115 and had no problems. The 135 setting is going to have you on the edge of operation on any low flow fixture. Turn it down and it will work better. How far you can turn it down will depend upon the length of piping, heat loss during transmission, and insulation on the pipe.
Your technician said it was improper plumbing? Can you expand on that a bit? The previous owner threw it in to help sell the house. Whatever issues there were with the water piping show up now. In my contractor trainings I have always told the dealer to go ahead and bid the install where the existing water heater is, as it will likely be the lowest cost. I then ask them to walk around the house and see if there is a better location for the install that would put the unit closer to the point(s) of use. That is the right position for the tankless. In other words, down exacerbate the mistakes of the original low cost bidder. One thing I recommend is to run a dedicated 3/8 or 1/2" pex line direct from the bottom of the unit to the kitchen sink. Anyway, hating your Rinnai won't get you anywhere if there are system and operational issues. Describe your system a bit better and I'll try to finger it out with you.
To the OP, when I put in my first tankless with my wife and two teenage girls my gas bill dropped by half. It would have been greater, but once the girls figured out that they would never run out of hot water they kinda dropped anchor in there. This is quite common. Some don't get as great savings with tankless. I ask them to look at their water bills. Once they are comfortable in the shower they stay in there longer. We put up 18 kids in the house one weekend when they all came in for a wedding. People were sleeping all over the place. In the morning, all 18 showered. All 18 took as long a shower as they wanted. All 18 had hot water. Tankless are generally planned purchases. If you wait until you have water on the floor, you will end up with another tank. Any specific questions you have?
I am absolutely "Brand Biased" and must acknowledge that. That said, the only unit I would not buy is a Bosch.
Jehannum
Well-known member
I had a tankless Bosch unit installed in my last house, and will absolutely put another in the new house, when the water heater starts showing its age.
The savings was substantial for me - 30-40% per gas bill, but when I installed it, I was replacing a terrible 40 gallon Kenmore, so maybe if you've got a really nice tanked unit, it wouldn't matter as much.
The other big plus for me was unlimited hot water - with a family of four, that 40 gallons was gone awfully quick.
I'm not big on brand bias, and given the installation issues I had with the Bosch, I probably wouldn't go that route again. Maybe Rinnai this time - they seem to have one of the best reputations out there. The Bosch came with some kind of fault in the pressure regulator, the plumber had to get underneath it and blow into it to make it "pop", but only after Bosch tech support made us submit detailed installation plans (even after pulling the permits to install the thing...) before letting us know.
The savings was substantial for me - 30-40% per gas bill, but when I installed it, I was replacing a terrible 40 gallon Kenmore, so maybe if you've got a really nice tanked unit, it wouldn't matter as much.
The other big plus for me was unlimited hot water - with a family of four, that 40 gallons was gone awfully quick.
I'm not big on brand bias, and given the installation issues I had with the Bosch, I probably wouldn't go that route again. Maybe Rinnai this time - they seem to have one of the best reputations out there. The Bosch came with some kind of fault in the pressure regulator, the plumber had to get underneath it and blow into it to make it "pop", but only after Bosch tech support made us submit detailed installation plans (even after pulling the permits to install the thing...) before letting us know.
ChnZ
Member
I just bought a house a month ago with a Rheem natural gas water heater in it. The water heats up quick, and there's just no end to it. I absolutely love it. I'm sure my water bill is going to go up though, because with no end to the hot water, I just can't seem to get out of the shower in the mornings.
TangoFoxTrot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2009
- Messages
- 1,961
I would just add everything up with the new unit and installation and compare.
I would guesstimate my current hot water tank cost around $10-$15 per month on my gas bill. Even if it cut that part of my usage by a crazy number, you're looking at a long time to pay off.
I would guesstimate my current hot water tank cost around $10-$15 per month on my gas bill. Even if it cut that part of my usage by a crazy number, you're looking at a long time to pay off.
Randy in Maine
Well-known member
When I went from a leaking old electric water heater to an on demand propane unit, my propane went up about $10 a month and my electric bill dropped about $50 a month.
I could run a car wash on this thing.
I could run a car wash on this thing.
anthony666
Well-known member
i just read through this thread and i can't believe all the nay sayers !! the same guys that were bitching about fuel injection when it came out no doubt ... it's called resistance to change you old fogeys .. to use another automotive analogy, which has better fuel economy, an engine that idles all day until you need it, or one that you shut off when aren't driving ?? if i left my truck ticking over in the driveway all day you'd think i was mad .. why in the name of all that is holy would you do that in your home ?? common sense
there are absolutely no advantages to tank water heater as compared to a properly sized, properly installed tankless .. ZERO
where you get issues are from retrofits into hot water delivery systems that were built by the hour .. improper unit sizing .. bad installs .. general laziness .. do the work involved to find the best machine that is going to fit the bill .. you're gonna get what you pay for, so buy a good brand, ie rinnai, takagi, navian .. take the time to look inside a demo model, usually the less plastic inside the better .. stop trying to solve tankless problems with tanked solutions, understanding the operation of the unit and how it handles water differently than a tanked unit will go a long way to making you love your new appliance
do some math .. what are you gonna get from a tank unit in terms of time ?? a decent brand tankless, properly installed will easily last 25 years .. math it out fellas .. don't forget to account for the added value to you home <-- right there, that speaks volumes .. do you EVER hear of someone saying "i upgraded to an old school, 1920's technology, tank syle water heater from a POS modern, fuel efficient tankless ?" .. while you're at it why not move the bathroom back outside to a shed with a hole over a fly factory
there are absolutely no advantages to tank water heater as compared to a properly sized, properly installed tankless .. ZERO
where you get issues are from retrofits into hot water delivery systems that were built by the hour .. improper unit sizing .. bad installs .. general laziness .. do the work involved to find the best machine that is going to fit the bill .. you're gonna get what you pay for, so buy a good brand, ie rinnai, takagi, navian .. take the time to look inside a demo model, usually the less plastic inside the better .. stop trying to solve tankless problems with tanked solutions, understanding the operation of the unit and how it handles water differently than a tanked unit will go a long way to making you love your new appliance
do some math .. what are you gonna get from a tank unit in terms of time ?? a decent brand tankless, properly installed will easily last 25 years .. math it out fellas .. don't forget to account for the added value to you home <-- right there, that speaks volumes .. do you EVER hear of someone saying "i upgraded to an old school, 1920's technology, tank syle water heater from a POS modern, fuel efficient tankless ?" .. while you're at it why not move the bathroom back outside to a shed with a hole over a fly factory
Distance is certainly the cause for the delay......in warm water.
But it does not have to be a concern or problem:
The last two homes I have owned were ranch style with by nature had long hot water runs. (Still own the last home)
Both homes had gravity return lines from the distant fixtures. Shower and other taps have instant hot water available any time of the day.
The hot water return uses normal convection flow to allow the water to continuously circulate through insulated lines.
While this return system uses no pump, it obviously will make the heater cycle on a few more times per day. But my water heating cost are very affordable as stated earlier. One could also figure that running the water for a minute or two or three to get water to the end of the house has its cost too........ both for the tank dilution with cold water and filling the pipes.
The pipes losing the small amount of heat are also in a heated space so the heat is not really lost.
Instant warm water at any tap is a nice feature at a very low cost.
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Trey T
Well-known member
Once my 50 gal NG go out, I'm gonna get a tankless NG water heater. It's just a no-brainer!!!
paranoid56
Well-known member
yep, couldnt have said it better myself. once mine goes bad i am upgrading to a tankless
tymbo
Well-known member
While I generally agree with upgrading to new technology. I tried a tankless unit from Bosch, (I think). I had nothing but problems.
Regulating the flow of hot water was a constant battle- not enough flow and the unit won't fire. Turn the flow down too much- it shuts down. taking a shower was a balancing act with the shower valve to keep temp steady.
There are multiple flow/temp sensors that can fail. One failed on my unit and it proceeded to NOT shut down the burner. I ended up with exploded/melted plastic pipes with scalding hot water all over my utility room. Not sure what would have happened if I had copper pipes.
You can't beat the proven- reliable- simplicty of the tank design. After all, look how many people still buy harleys.
anthony666
Well-known member
After all, look how many people still buy harleys.
i had a shovelhead for decades, i called it the 'exxon valdez'
When I hear of the efficiency, less waste, greatly longer unit life I get excited. When I hear of plumbing lines being replaced, new gas lines run etc, I get discouraged.
My new house is a 60's house with galvanized pipe and an old tank water heater. I ahd to do an unexpected new water heater in my old house (now rented) so we're putting off a new one for a bit. I'd have to spend $1300 to install a new tank heater to code. Not sure on the tankless just yet but the tank will only last 6 to 8 years. I'd prefer a 15-25 year solution.
Still researching
My new house is a 60's house with galvanized pipe and an old tank water heater. I ahd to do an unexpected new water heater in my old house (now rented) so we're putting off a new one for a bit. I'd have to spend $1300 to install a new tank heater to code. Not sure on the tankless just yet but the tank will only last 6 to 8 years. I'd prefer a 15-25 year solution.
Still researching
I installed a Rheem in 2008, it was about $850 and I got the tax break. Love the unit but as stated before, location is important. Ours is near the master bath and laundry which is great in the shower. But the kitchen sink is on the other end so we waste some water on that end.
I am on a well running thru a softener and have not had any problems. When we i did the install I removed two small electrics and a small gas water heater and I have definitely seen my utility cost decrease.
Chuck
I am on a well running thru a softener and have not had any problems. When we i did the install I removed two small electrics and a small gas water heater and I have definitely seen my utility cost decrease.
Chuck
Why would you want to heat hot water?
You must be a plumber, I am and always catch people say the same thing.
If we had NG here we surely would have gone tankless. Since we don't I would have needed something like 3 30amp breakers to make it work. We have 200 amp service which is required but with electric stove, oven, dryer, air compressor, two heat pumps with strip heat, and everything else I figured it wasn't worth it. We went with a heat pump water heater. The tankless advantages still seem nice!
Burl
Well-known member
How does a demand water heater work with very cold water entering? The supplied water in my area about this time of year (Jan-Feb) can get into the lower 40s temp-wise. How hard is it to heat this water to 120 degrees in a very short distance under pressure?
The USGS pegs average ground water temps at about 55*. In MA my summer water temp was 55-60. Winter was 45-50. Here in dry CA ( we had .1" of rain in Jan) my water is 60-65 year round out of my well. If you check the specs on the tankless you are looking at see what the output is at, say 50*. My 180,000 BTU, .82 EF unit will make 4.3 gpm at a 70* rise, so from 50-120. At 40* it will make .4gpm less or 3.9gpm. I can still run two 2.5 gpm showers all day at that point.
Every water delivery system has a personality, but what I have seen in 15 yrs with these is that Depending upon how your water is supplied, you will "typically" see water temps depressed in the 3-4 coldest months. It takes time for frost to get into the ground and time for it to come out
The most common tankless today is the .95 EF 199,000BTU unit which will be in the 5.5-5.8 gpm range at a 70* rise.