Tankless water heaters?
- Thread starter jbbies
- Start date
t. jones
Well-known member
I've sort of been looking too. We stayed at an appartment in Germany that had one mounted on the wall beside the shower, it worked ok but was noisy. Local homestore used to have them on display but took them away? I know they are expensive.
Thanx Trevor
Thanx Trevor
tonydanzah
Well-known member
for what its worth. I recently asked my uncle who is an hvac/gas company guy about these. He said a big quick recovery tank was cheaper to buy and operate. Said sometimes before you can even use the tankless you need to have higher gas pressure at your house( something like an extra $15 per month). Then he mentioned even though the unit only runs when you want hot water it uses something like 2-3x more btus during that time. The big quick recovery unit also does not run all day, but it does a better job heating a storing the saved water.
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Stuart in MN
Well-known member
If you do a search, a number of previous discussions come up: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/search.php?searchid=2325617
HoosierBuddy
Well-known member
I have some anecdotal information on tankless gas water heaters.
I know of several people who have gotten them, and they all love the "never run out of hot water feature".
If your household uses a set amount of hot water per month, they are cheaper to operate than a tank style water heater. My fear would be that any savings would evaporate, because the "never run out of hot water feature" will encourage you to use more hot water...meaning you'll use more energy and more water.
I believe there are tax credits available to help defray the higher cost of these units and some utilities are also offering rebates to encourage the use of them. Most of these units are going to have an energy factor of higher than .62 and should be energy star rated.
I've heard rumors of people having problems with the ignition system on these. If true, than it would be tough to realize any savings, as one service call will eat up all potential energy $ savings for several years.
A whole house unit is rated at about 200,000 BTU/hour, which is about twice what a large furnace is rated at...so you will definitely want to contact your gas company and see if your meter is big enough. You may need to install larger piping into your house from the meter. I would DISCOURAGE WITH ALL MY SOUL anyone requesting the gas company to raise the pressure in order to run more gas through the existing piping. It would require individual regulators in front of every appliance in order to accomplish it. A 415 series meter on inches water column will handle the delivery quite nicely as long as the customer comes out of it with 1" or larger pipe (your run may vary.)
To me...a tankless water heater makes little sense for a retrofit unless the endless hot water is a big deal to you. And, as my kids have become teenagers, I've finally run into that "cold shower moment" and it's no fun at all! So I can see the appeal. Just don't sit there and think it's going to save you a ton of money...because it isn't. Most of the tankless water heater savings ads I have seen are deceptive. They'll say "our gas tankless water heater can save you 50% compared to your tank style electric water heater". Well, DUH...any gas water heater will save you half vs an electric water heater. The savings gas tankless vs gas tank style is much more modest....if you don't use more hot water through it.
The tankless units also do require a few seconds of water flow before they can kick on and start heating. This may be a drawback for some people too.
BTW...there is a new water heater player on the market now...a fully condensing gas tank style water heater. The price? I checked out one that was a bit over $3000. WOW!
Phil
I know of several people who have gotten them, and they all love the "never run out of hot water feature".
If your household uses a set amount of hot water per month, they are cheaper to operate than a tank style water heater. My fear would be that any savings would evaporate, because the "never run out of hot water feature" will encourage you to use more hot water...meaning you'll use more energy and more water.
I believe there are tax credits available to help defray the higher cost of these units and some utilities are also offering rebates to encourage the use of them. Most of these units are going to have an energy factor of higher than .62 and should be energy star rated.
I've heard rumors of people having problems with the ignition system on these. If true, than it would be tough to realize any savings, as one service call will eat up all potential energy $ savings for several years.
A whole house unit is rated at about 200,000 BTU/hour, which is about twice what a large furnace is rated at...so you will definitely want to contact your gas company and see if your meter is big enough. You may need to install larger piping into your house from the meter. I would DISCOURAGE WITH ALL MY SOUL anyone requesting the gas company to raise the pressure in order to run more gas through the existing piping. It would require individual regulators in front of every appliance in order to accomplish it. A 415 series meter on inches water column will handle the delivery quite nicely as long as the customer comes out of it with 1" or larger pipe (your run may vary.)
To me...a tankless water heater makes little sense for a retrofit unless the endless hot water is a big deal to you. And, as my kids have become teenagers, I've finally run into that "cold shower moment" and it's no fun at all! So I can see the appeal. Just don't sit there and think it's going to save you a ton of money...because it isn't. Most of the tankless water heater savings ads I have seen are deceptive. They'll say "our gas tankless water heater can save you 50% compared to your tank style electric water heater". Well, DUH...any gas water heater will save you half vs an electric water heater. The savings gas tankless vs gas tank style is much more modest....if you don't use more hot water through it.
The tankless units also do require a few seconds of water flow before they can kick on and start heating. This may be a drawback for some people too.
BTW...there is a new water heater player on the market now...a fully condensing gas tank style water heater. The price? I checked out one that was a bit over $3000. WOW!
Phil
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Falcon67
Well-known member
I've looked at those and I agree with a Consumer Reports article I read - no payback. Cost too much, savings too little if any.
malibu101
Well-known member
Where I work we have been installing quite a few Rinnai tankless water heater units. They ARE pricey to purchase. Don't know how long till you would see a payback.
I must say though, the oldest Rinna'si are about 4 years old and none has ever needed repair nor failed in any way. So far their service record has really impressed me.
We have a Bosch Aquastar 125 that is just over 10 years old. It takes 117kBTUs and has ? inch inlets\outlets. If I was doing it over, I would get the next size up with the ? inch inlet\outlet and ?175kBTU. We can run two showers with no problem or a shower and the dishwasher. However, when running the washing machine and a shower, you have to adjust the shower when the washer calls for hot water. The unit can supply it, but the drop has to be compensated for ? minor, but thought I would mention it. Tankless units work on a temp rise per gallon measurement. More flow, less temp rise. The unit is built great and I have the standing pilot light model. To date, I have rebuilt the water control valve ($50) and put two thermocouples ($11 each) in. The recommendation is to rebuild the control valve every 5 years due to mineral deposits, but mine was clean and an o-ring had just started leaking after 10 years. The unit is built to be serviced and I easily believe the claim that they last 20 + years. The endless hot water is great but I have no cost basis from a regular tank to do a comparison. In winter the incoming water is colder so the output is slightly reduced, but an ~ 10 degree drop at full output is not noticeable. I think the cost was $600 but we were given a grant for energy efficient home mods when we built so I am not sure of the exact cost. Take care
Dave
________
S platform
Dave
________
S platform
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tdkkart
Well-known member
Agreed, you not only have to consider the cost of the heater unit, but also the required adjustments to your plumbing since they don't fit in the same place as a tank type.
HoosierBuddy
Well-known member
Where I can see a potential savings is in new construction, if the space savings can be used effectively. If new construction costs $100/sf, and you could save a 3' X 3' area...that's $900 right there.
Phil
Teken
Well-known member
Great infor from all, many thanks. I appreciate the real world experience from those members who own one, opposed to those who don't.
Keep the feed-back coming! I will be keeping an eye on this thread for sure in the future.
Regards
EVIL Teken . . .
Keep the feed-back coming! I will be keeping an eye on this thread for sure in the future.
Regards
EVIL Teken . . .
nolatoolguy
Banned
well i have only heard negitives
from what i here there expensive to install and they can use some serious eltricity up
now if your in a apartment downtown or a rv or something like that i could see why in a home nope.
And also i think it would be easier if you have to repair a typical water heater then a tankless its to complicated as far as eltronics and parts compared to a regular tank style
but thats just me
from what i here there expensive to install and they can use some serious eltricity up
now if your in a apartment downtown or a rv or something like that i could see why in a home nope.
And also i think it would be easier if you have to repair a typical water heater then a tankless its to complicated as far as eltronics and parts compared to a regular tank style
but thats just me
garageking
Well-known member
i have a bosch tankless,ive had no problems what so ever.i love it and i have 2 bathrooms
Ezzie
Well-known member
I replaced my aging 60 gal. electric with a Bosch 2400 tankless unit (Natural Gas) a couple of years ago. My motivation was downsizing our water requirements - just the missus & I in the house now. I couldn't see the sense in keeping 60 gals. of water at temp. all the time when I am away working all day during the week and in the shop on the weekends.
It took a little getting used to at first as you have to change your method of getting hot water. By this I mean you need to crank the hot tap wide open for about 15-20 seconds first to get 'er rolling - then cut back to the proper flow and mixture with the cold tap. Then it just runs along forever at the same flow rate and temp. I simply love it. I did have to do a short run of 1" black pipe to it from where the gas enters the basement and insert a "T" into the line going to the furmace - but no big deal.
I have had no problems whatsoever with the unit so far.
It took a little getting used to at first as you have to change your method of getting hot water. By this I mean you need to crank the hot tap wide open for about 15-20 seconds first to get 'er rolling - then cut back to the proper flow and mixture with the cold tap. Then it just runs along forever at the same flow rate and temp. I simply love it. I did have to do a short run of 1" black pipe to it from where the gas enters the basement and insert a "T" into the line going to the furmace - but no big deal.
I have had no problems whatsoever with the unit so far.
Rosco
Well-known member
I thought about one for the bonus room in my shop (all electric). Once I figured the price of the unit, running two 40 amp circuits, and the associated hardware I have decided against it. I will just put in a tank, keep it flushed, and turn off the breaker when the room is not being utilized.
mustangmccance
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2009
- Messages
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I am considering one for my shop. I have a detatched garage that I am going to put in a bathroom this summer. I will only be using the hot water very rarely. I will put in a shower mostly for bathing the dogs and when I get really dirty, and for washing my hands. but not often so I think installing a tank water heater would be a waste. also the tank takes up space I don't want to lose. I have not decided for sure but I think one of these http://www.cpotanklesswaterheaters.com/electric_products/whole_house_tankless/ae125.html
might be perfect. small and wall mounted so I won't lose any space, and only used when I need it. and the price is not bad. 419 dollars for a reconditioned one. it seems like a good plan to me. what am I missing?
might be perfect. small and wall mounted so I won't lose any space, and only used when I need it. and the price is not bad. 419 dollars for a reconditioned one. it seems like a good plan to me. what am I missing?
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W_A_Watson_II
Well-known member
I have a small one under the sink in my shop and it's nice, but I didn't go big enough, the water just doesn't get hot enough. Was considering switching the house over, but after reading the comments here, I think I'll leave the tank alone. I still plan on installing one in the Cabin I'll build, as it will be overall cheaper to operate and not let freeze.
garageking
Well-known member
like ezzy says once you get used to how to start the hot water there great.they start by sensing water flow.i gave 900 dollars for my bosch and you have to use stainless piping to run out wall or roof,that was spendy,but i have no regrets once it was done
alexb2000
Well-known member
If anyone is considering the the tankless vs. tank decision for a shop, I recommend tankless. I have the cheapest no name brand electric tankless on my shop sink because it only gets used about two minutes a day for hand washing and then only when I am at my shop. I spent $100 on it 5 years ago and haven't had to do anything to it. It's only about 10"X6"x4" so it mounts under the sink no venting required. I know in this application it pays for itself vs. heating even 10gal of water everyday for 5 years and counting. Also, these are dead simple to install yourself so that can save a considerable amount vs. hiring a plumber.
Teken
Well-known member
Alexb2000,
Would you mind sharing the brand and model. That is what I wanted to do for those odd occasions when I wanted some hot water with out running into the kitchen with my dirty boots. That would be a great alternative for sure!
EVIL Teken . . .
alexb2000
Well-known member
Here is a link that looks just like mine:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bosch-PowerStar...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a04a70a80
I am not at my shop right now, but I would say this is a dead ringer for the one I have although mine doesn't say bosch on the case anywhere. I also wanted to point out that I had to turn up the temperature on mine since at first the water was only luke warm. Now it gets very, very, hot to the point you have to mix it to put your hands in it. I guess they send them from the factory turned down so that they don't burn anyone. One other point is that the heating element is water flow controlled so you have to turn it on more than a trickle to get the heater to kick-in.
For $129 with shipping and no tax I don't think you can go wrong.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bosch-PowerStar...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a04a70a80
I am not at my shop right now, but I would say this is a dead ringer for the one I have although mine doesn't say bosch on the case anywhere. I also wanted to point out that I had to turn up the temperature on mine since at first the water was only luke warm. Now it gets very, very, hot to the point you have to mix it to put your hands in it. I guess they send them from the factory turned down so that they don't burn anyone. One other point is that the heating element is water flow controlled so you have to turn it on more than a trickle to get the heater to kick-in.
For $129 with shipping and no tax I don't think you can go wrong.
For my shop, I bought a 2.5 gallon, 110V water heater. It is only used for washing hands. I bought it off eBay brand new for $100.
Best $100 I ever spent.
http://www.tanklesswaterheatersdirect.com/shop/tanklesswaterheaters/ariston/aristonindex.htm
Best $100 I ever spent.
http://www.tanklesswaterheatersdirect.com/shop/tanklesswaterheaters/ariston/aristonindex.htm
Teken
Well-known member
Another freaking ***** who won't ship to the 51st state!!!
:shoot5I have to ask to WHY in 2010 that there are countless idiots in this country that refuse to send items over to Canada??? 
Do these freaking morons even know who is their largest trading partner is?? It's Canada . . .
Do these people still think there is no mail service out here in the great white north???Canada Post / USPS, Fed-Ex, UPS, DHL, and all the other 9999999999 small couriers ship here for christ sakes !!!
Sorry to rant, but this just gets my blood boiling I swear to God.
Ezzie
Well-known member
I hear your pain bud. There are still many on-line sellers who just don't want to deal with the hassle of filling out the export docs. for an international shipment. Three solutions:
a) Tell them you refuse to deal with them until they do support shipments to Canadian customers.
b) Have them ship it to the nearest UPS depot to a border crossing closest to you then drive over and import it yourself.
c) Complete the export docs. yourself and email/fax them to the idiot so he can attach it to the parcel.
a) Tell them you refuse to deal with them until they do support shipments to Canadian customers.
b) Have them ship it to the nearest UPS depot to a border crossing closest to you then drive over and import it yourself.
c) Complete the export docs. yourself and email/fax them to the idiot so he can attach it to the parcel.
Teken
Well-known member
I actually have done (option B) that you have suggested. For something very small I am not going to drive 3 hours to pick up a $25.00 item. The cost for fuel would be insane to justify.
Sorry I made a thread here:
Don't want this thread to go OT and off topic . . .
Teken
Well-known member
KELLHAMMER
Well-known member
I have the largest Bosch unit Actually, it's a Takagi. Got it from HD about 5 years ago when my 40 gal elec WH quit. I installed myself so no labor cost. The unit was 1k. The biggest pluses are its's small and provides endless hot water. Something my 40 gal could not do. And I gained a whole closet worth of space in my finished basement. I mounted the suit case size unit on the wall in the mech closet. I bet it will outlast any tank type unit. Lastly, it does save on fuel since it only makes hot water when needed
6768rogues
Banned
Tankless water heaters are rated by heating a certain number of gallons of water a certain number of degrees. Colder incoming water means cooler outgoing water. If you use low flows of water it might work. Personally, I do not want one because I like the old fashioned water heater. Also, many codes prohibit placing fuel burning equipment like a tankless water heater in some locations within the dwelling unit. We don't use a lot of hot water so I have the temperature of my water heater set fairly low and we bought a dishwasher that will pause and heat its water if necessary.
W_A_Watson_II
Well-known member
Mine in my shop is an Eemax EX65TML-IL (standard range 100 to 140°F. Turn on .7 GPM, max 2 GPM). Wish I'd gone a little larger as I have to run almost 100% hot water in the winter to wash my hands.
Cameronl
Well-known member
...or lower water flow. Mine throttles back the flow rate until it delivers the proper temp. It just barely delivers enough water at the shower. The only hassle is that it takes VERY little cold to adjust the temp. Cold is barely on at all. I'm quite satisfied, but would have been happier if I was aware of this before hand. It also means we can't do two showers at once (second bath ends up with NO hot water.)
Definately worth it for the significantly lower electric bill and minuscule propane bill.