Tap & Die Set

[rdagger]

Someone please recommend a good tap & die set.
Is HSS the way to go?

 

[REFLEXX]

Yes, HSS is your best bet. DO NOT buy Chinese! You'll regret it the first time you snap off a tap in a hole.

It's American, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, East Europe, China. In order from best to worst.

Try www.use-enco.com Download thier monthly fliers (PDF) and see what they have on sale.

 

[kartracer55]

The ONLY HSS metric tap AND die set I could find was craftsman. There is a mis-listing in the MSC catalog. It shows a hanson/Irwin set of metric being HSS but its not, as they told me when I went to order.

For standard threads, there are a few HSS USA made sets available. The craftsman set is excellent for rethreading and chasing holes. The craftsman professional taps are catalog only and are decent enough for automotive use. Not quite high end taps, but your not going to get them in a set anyway. They are better than my friends northern tool mega-set.

HSS taps are ground from a solid "round" whereas carbon steel taps are "made" (dont know how exactly) then heat treated so some will argue that they dont hold as tight of a tolerance as a good HSS tap will. Carbon steel taps are fine for chasing threads and the occasional tapping. One advantage they have is that you can remove broken ones MUCH easier than an HSS tap, which if you have ever had to do, you know its a pain.

Jim

 

[rdagger]

This Sears HSS SAE Set for $289 look good, but this Enco Set is on sale and only $40 more and includes metric.

 

[REFLEXX]

Find a good local "industrial supply" or "tool company" and just buy the individual pieces. I've got every tap and die there is and don't recall spending $300 total.

there's also www.use-enco.com for sets or individual. Just make sure you find out where they are made.

 

[rockwithjason]

Irwin makes a pretty good set for the home guy. I like em.

 

[Blacknwhitepit]

These are not HSS, but some may find this interesting.

I recently bought a 117 piece set for general automotive work. So before I traded up from my smaller "offshore brand" set; I did a little research on popular Tap and Die sets.

Here is something to ponder.

Snap on 117 pieces set $473
MAC 117 piece set $365
Matco 117 piece set $320
Irwin 117 piece set $243

Now check out the photos. Top left - Snap on, Top right - MAC, MATCO and Irwin. Spot the similarities?

My Snap on guy told me that Irwin Hanson made the Snap on brand. The kicker is that Snap on guarantees them. (Not bad if you use them often). But the idea is not to break the tap in the hole and be back where you started (or even in a worse predicament). But, experience has taught me that proper preparation, patience and lots of oil will keep you from busting a tap.

I believe MAC and Matco are both made by Irwin Hanson.

I don't know if MAC or Matco will guarantee theirs.

Finally, I got on Ebay and bought the Snap on set for $200. Has worked great.

-BWP

 

[Rickster]

What you do see are identical plastic cases. What you don't see - and this may or may not be the case - are the specifications for the quality of steel used and the tolerences of the acceptable finished product for each brand. Just seems odd that if the SnapOn's are warranted why aren't the other manufactureres willing to stand behind the same product.

 

[l_bilyk]

My Snap on guy told me that Irwin Hanson made the Snap on brand. The kicker is that Snap on guarantees them. (Not bad if you use them often). But the idea is not to break the tap in the hole and be back where you started (or even in a worse predicament). But, experience has taught me that proper preparation, patience and lots of oil will keep you from busting a tap.

You are correct. I asked around and most people said IRWIN taps are pretty good for automotive use. Obviously not for a machinist, but more so for chasing threads and tapping the occasional oil pan

 

[rdagger]

Snap on 117 pieces set $473
MAC 117 piece set $365
Matco 117 piece set $320
Irwin 117 piece set $243

One thing about those 117 piece sets is that they are not really 117 tap and dies because they include a 36 piece drill bit set, so you are really buying an 81 piece set. The Enco set is truly 110 pieces and the Sears set (only SAE) is truly 58 pieces. It may only be a few bits difference, but some of the missing ones, I need.

Just seems odd that if the SnapOn's are warranted why aren't the other manufactureres willing to stand behind the same product.

Maybe Snap-On can afford to stand behind their product, because they are charging almost twice as much as Irwin.

 

[Rickster]

Maybe Snap-On can afford to stand behind their product, because they are charging almost twice as much as Irwin.

No, I thought about that. SnapOn is sold to mechanics and the set would expect to get much use and coupled with readily available tool guy to handle returns they would need a high quality tool. As compared to say an Irwin that would be ordered off some obscure tool web site and used occasionally by a backyard mechanic who would probably never take the time and money to mail out and return a broken tap.

 

[kartracer55]

Im thinking that because the Snap on is TWICE as much as the irwin set (foudn it for <220$) a mechanic could break everything in that set once and snap on would still be making money. Think about it, Retailers selling the Irwin set for 1/2 as much still turn a profit. I have never seen a die stock or tap handle break, so that means more $$ for replacement taps and dies... still makin a profit.

Jim

 

[Blacknwhitepit]

Im thinking that because the Snap on is TWICE as much as the irwin set (foudn it for <220$) a mechanic could break everything in that set once and snap on would still be making money. Think about it, Retailers selling the Irwin set for 1/2 as much still turn a profit. I have never seen a die stock or tap handle break, so that means more $$ for replacement taps and dies... still makin a profit.

Jim

I am in agreement. When the bean counters at Snap on look at this and formulate a profit based upon statistical returns of broken taps, dies, handles etc... they come up with what they should charge based upon probable returns based upon units sold.

As for Snap on being better quality than standard Irwin, (or MAC or Matco; which I still believe is made by Irwin) I would doubt it.

Considering since it is not HSS and that manufacturing companies usually like to order large bulks of steel stock in one type simply to keep costs down, I believe it would cost them more in the long run to run different types of steel through the manufacturing process for each different brand of Tap or Die.

Since propriety information is usually closely guarded, perhaps we will never know.

But, the replacement policy is the reason why I chose the Snap on.

-BWP

 

[DIGGER_DAVE]

I have been following this thread for a couple of days and decided to throw in my .25 cents.
I was in the industrial tool business for a number of years and there are a couple of statements above that need either correction or some further explanation.

First: The BEST taps and dies are made of HHS. (High Speed Steel)
At one time the BEST taps and dies were made in the UK. One company was/is "BAY STATE"; who manufactures high quality production machine tooling.
I purchased a set of 1/4 to 1/2 inch which has a "taper", "plug" and "bottoming" tap for each size. The set includes UNF thread taps as well as UNC. And a set of dies for each size.
AND .. I haven't broken a single one yet! I bought the set when I was an apprentice machinist 45 YEARS AGO!

The secret is two fold.

1. ALWAYS clean your taps and dies, and put a thin film of oil on them before storing them after use. For cleaning; I use an old tooth brush. (stiff)

2. USE A GUIDE BLOCK! A guide block doesn't need to be fancy, (mine's a scrap of 1" thick aluminum about 4" x 6") with holes that match the diam. of the tap(s) that you hold against the surface; "poke" the tip of the tap through the guide block hole; align with the hole to be threaded, and firmly hold (or clamp) the guide block to align the tap as it starts into the workpiece. Keeps the tap square to the surface and supports the tap as it starts. Most tap breakage is caused by exerting side loads on them.

CLEANING EXISTING THREADS

A VERY BIG No, No - using regular taps and dies (or ANY other variety - like carbon) to "Chase Threads!"
Don't do it!
You are destroying the strength of the thread!! As well as the "fit."

Once a thread has been "cut" and a fastener has been used in/on the thread (and loaded/torqued) the "peaks" of the original thread "roll over."
IF a regular tap or die is used to clean this hole/bolt again; it starts to "cut" the thread AGAIN; only now the thread has become oversized. (in it's axial direction) Try it on an old nut and bolt (put them back together again) and you will see what I mean!

The ONLY way to "chase" existing threads is to use "THREAD CHASER TAPS and DIES!"
The engine builders (pro's) use the thread "chasers" to clean out any leftover thread sealant. (or dirt and grease) Or clean damaged threads on the ends of bolts.
Inexpensive tread chaser tap and die sets are available from Sears, Snap-On, Mac, etc.

If your going to do a LOT of thread chasing, (and in deep holes) ARP makes sets. (or you can buy them individually)
A word of warning about ARP Thread Chaser Taps is; they LOOK like regular taps and can be easily mixed up with your regular taps. I put a short piece of shrink tubing on the ends so they stand out; and made a special holder for them.

 

[Cebby]

Digger Dave - outstanding post! I'm copy/pasting for posterity.

 

[l_bilyk]

The ONLY way to "chase" existing threads is to use "THREAD CHASER TAPS and DIES!"
The engine builders (pro's) use the thread "chasers" to clean out any leftover thread sealant. (or dirt and grease) Or clean damaged threads on the ends of bolts.

Yeah i know it destroys the threads.. i've never done it on anything important.. never had to really

Last time I had to do it was on a mazda where some dolt cross-threaded 3 (of 6) valve cover bolts. I wasn't in the mood to helicoil it so I gently ran a tap through. Sloppy fit afterwards, but enough to provide the 7 ft-lbs the gasket called for. It's a hack way of doing it, but... 10+ year old beater.. who cares right

 

[l_bilyk]

PS: dave, what oil do you use? just anything to keep them from rusting?

 

[kartracer55]

Dave, Good post.

I use threaded tap "blocks" I have a few small pieces of aluminum, maybe 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 X 1/8 that I have for these holes. I came across that on a machinest board a while back and It is a great idea, works very well. Similar things can be done with a thick piece of steel for drilling out and broken bolts when you have to use a hand drill... but I dont have to tell you that lol. Excellent read with some good info! I know I could go for some more posts from you concerning this kind of information, There is ALOT I dont know but sure would like too



Jim

 

[DIGGER_DAVE]

PS: dave, what oil do you use? just anything to keep them from rusting?

Although many machinists use a "squirt" of WD40 after cleaning their taps and dies, I found many years ago that the WD40 would "drain off."

Now that needs some explanation. ALL my taps are stored vertically in wood blocks. (holes in the block to accept the handle end of the tap) I group the taps by "taper", (for starting) "plug" (when tapping blind holes that don't need thread all the way to the bottom of the hole) and "bottoming" (for tapping to the bottom of blind holes) PLUS a hole beside the three taps for the TAP DRILL for that size. (for example the UNF taps)

Then the same is done for the same sizes in UNC. (actually use pieces of 2x4 for each group; then I can take the whole set out in preparation for tapping)

Because they are stored vertically, the WD40 would "dry out" after a long period of storage; (hey, when was the last time you used your 3/4" UNF tap!)
I started many years ago using a product called, "JIG-A-LOO"
It comes in spray cans and is a rust preventative, lubricant, doesn't stain AND it doesn't drain off!

If you want more information about it, check here ...

http://www.jigaloo.com

I use the "Original" type.

Although the "Jig-A-Loo" does have lubricating qualities, a GOOD tapping lubricating oil should be used when tapping. One that I highly recommend (and USE!) is called "A9". (made by Relton)

The 6 oz. squeeze bottle of "A9" I have is still going strong after 10 years! (you only need a couple of drops)

 

[DIGGER_DAVE]

kartracer, just checking on something ...

I use threaded tap "blocks" ...

If your "tap blocks" are THREADED; you COULD be damaging the threads at the start of the hole your tapping. The guide blocks I use don't have any thread(s) in them. The holes are drilled to allow the tap to "slide through" and start themselves with gentle down force.

The idea of the "tap blocks" is to START the tap SQUARE to the surface, and give the tap body support while starting the threading operation. Once the tap is well started in the hole; the guide block can be removed.
BUT, use a "T" handle and use BOTH hands to turn the tap!!
I'll hazzard a guess that 99% of tap breakage is on account of ONE hand turning!!

I have a few small pieces of aluminum, maybe 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 X 1/8 that I have for these holes.

Jim

If the 1/8th inch is the depth; it might be TOO shallow! I find the thicker the guide block, (up to the top end of the tap threaded portion) the BETTER the support. (and lessens the chance of tap breakage)

Now ... if your tapping threads like #4 - 40, this might not be as important.

 

[kartracer55]

Dave, thanks for the reply. I use the tap-blocks for sizes up to 1/4. I freehand and use a t square to check them on sizes larger than that. I can usually eyeball the tap pretty well and taper taps make it easy to correct it before I start threading, but I will definetly look into using thicker blocks. I have plenty of 3/8? steel bar stock laying around so I might drill a few holes then.

Thanks!

Jim