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"Tapered" Tap & Dies

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crguy

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Not sure exactly what you mean by "tapered"? Taps generally come in 3 types: taper (starter), plug, and bottom. Each has a certain amount of taper on the end.
 
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winlinmac

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Irwin Hanson seems to market their high-end taps and dies with the "self-aligning" trademark. I read somewhere it simply means tapered ends so that getting the wrench and tap / die begins with a straight-cut from the get-go. A feature which is suitable for beginners (Irwin Hanson's words)
 

jallyn

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Thanks, so how does the Performance Threading System Sets go for almost the double the price over the conventional Irwin Hanson Tap & Die Sets?

Looks like it is more expensive because of design improvements including ergonomics, quick change feature w/ hex dies vs. conventional set screw, added steel for strength, etc. Finish/cosmetics also seem to be improved.
 

MShaw

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Plug, taper and bottom are not fluff. It refers to the number of threads in the cutting taper at the start of the tap. The longest (taper) is easiest to start and run but leaves 7 - 10 unfinished threads at the bottom of a blind hole. The taper has fewer threads and is a compromise between ease of starting and the number of unfinished threads. The bottom tap has 1-2 threads in the cutting taper and is used to finish blind holes where there is very little clearance between the end of the fastener and the bottom of a blind hole.

See attached table.
 

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Fcvapor05

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Plug, taper and bottom are not fluff. It refers to the number of threads in the cutting taper at the start of the tap. The longest (taper) is easiest to start and run but leaves 7 - 10 unfinished threads at the bottom of a blind hole. The taper has fewer threads and is a compromise between ease of starting and the number of unfinished threads. The bottom tap has 1-2 threads in the cutting taper and is used to finish blind holes where there is very little clearance between the end of the fastener and the bottom of a blind hole.

See attached table.

Like I said- hand taps are all tapered. Irwin advertising their taps as 'tapered' and implying that tapered taps are special is a marketing gimmick.
 
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winlinmac

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Are all of Irwin's Tap and Die Sets, HSS (High Speed Steel)? Most of the fasteners I come across are Metric. Should I still consider a set which includes both metric and SAE?
 

PSYKO_Inc

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Fairfield, CA
For me (a DIY'er), I've only ever needed a tap a couple times, so I just run down to the hardware store and buy the size I need. For blind holes I'll get a taper tap to start and a bottom tap to finish the last couple threads. If you're a professional mechanic, I'd say go ahead and buy a set with the most common sizes of SAE and metric threads.
 
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d.mcfarland

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Are all of Irwin's Tap and Die Sets, HSS (High Speed Steel)? Most of the fasteners I come across are Metric. Should I still consider a set which includes both metric and SAE?

You seem to never work on anything so buying tools is more about what you want and less about if you'll come across SAE.
 

T45

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Tools are solutions to problems...without actual problems or the forsight to estimate actual problems, I agree discussing tools is just a parlour game of shiny baubles.

I have some irwin taps of the types described, and they are pretty much 'meh'. I'd much prefer some better, standard taps. But I got them for a pittance...m6,8,10 with spec-sized USA/ HSS drills all for under $10 at Home Depot.

Unless you are a pro tech, you really don't need more than a couple taps, m5/6-12 range.

Once you know what you are doing, you stilll will unlikely go outside that range, but what you will want is variations in coating, and taper profile, flute profile etc. Those variations relate to the means with wich you will drive the tap and the substrate of your target applications. Oh, and then thread pitch variations. But that gets into engineeing blueprints and the like. But its easy to suddenly "need" m8 taps in 3 shapes and 2 surface coatings and another couple of thread pitches, and maybe a flute variation or two (like a forming tap). None of this will come in a standard kit, most likely. And certainly not a craftsman or a sub $100 dollar special.

Its impossible to really give guidance on how to build a tapset like you might need without actual problems. At you local ACE for $50 you can buy enough single-shape USA taps to cover random shop tasks. and then whan you have a specific need, you can order something more specific. If you need an m3/4 or something its very low torque, and maybe $3 bucks to pick up as a one off. A larger tap is expensive and likely a serious problem, not likely fixed best with 'whatever you happen to have lying around' (IMHO).
 
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MShaw

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They may have changed but in my day (about 40 / 50 years ago) Ace taps were complete junk.

You are better off going to someone like McMaster Carr and buying good taps as you need them. They are much more expensive than the hardware store brand but I have some that are over 40 years old and still cut better than the old Ace taps did when new.
 

T45

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Fair enough, but our local ace stocks irwin/hanson and othder decent usa stuff (which was the subject of original inquiry). My earlier point being you can buy something serviceble without going into truck brands or special order catalogs. Again, this is in the context of somebody looking to solve a non-specific problem they might (ever) not have or be able to articute clearly. It might still make sense to get some pieces ahead of having a problem.

On the other hand, I agree that going to the good stuff ans skipping over HW store specials is actually a better plan in the general sense.
 
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383 240z

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DONT buy a tap or die from a tool truck!! If you want a GOOD tap or die, call a machinist supply shop, cheaper and better. ENCO, MSC, Travers. Just to name a few. Same goes for drills. The tool truck stuff is just rebranded stuff with a LARGE markup. Not that they are garbage, just overpriced. Your paying for the convenience of having it delivered with most supply houses and Amazon, you will have it 1-2 days anyway
 

pstemari

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Seattle
Yeah, Union-Butterfield and R&N both make good HSS taps. The Irwin taps you get at a hardware store are carbon steel and pretty much junk. Irwin does make HSS taps, but I've never laid hands on one.

I've had the best luck getting taps from Amazon (U-B) and KBC Tools (R&N)
 

PJNJ

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Iowa
OP - what are you doing that requires taps and dies? I rarely need a tap and have never used a die working on cars, motorcycles and homes over the decades. I bought a Cman set of metric a few years ago when I needed one (and naturally they didn't have the single I needed) and have some SAE kicking around but generally all I have ever really needed to use have been re-threaders/restorers. Unless you are drilling and tapping a lot of bolt holes, I don't see the necessity for a DIY'er to have a large set of metric and SAE taps and dies sitting around.

:beer:
 
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winlinmac

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Thank you for the advice PJNJ. I have the Craftsman Thread Restorer (48-Pc) which has served me well time to time in restoring / rejuvenating threads on automotive bolts. Equivalent to dies to some extent.

As per taps and dies, I don't have any urgent need for them, but I did spend a fair amount on a couple of tap and die drivers (Irwin and Gearwrench). I try not to buy tools I know that will not see immediate use.

I don't do a lot of metal working. In fact, weekend projects involve lots of wood and masonry (for creative purposes), automotive work (which revolves around ongoing repairs, provided my budget permits). Your words are absolutely correct, I'm a DIY / Weekend warrior, (my daily work doesn't involve trade). However, quality tools do matter to me as they become an integral part of your tool arsenal when the time comes.

I've always felt that having a tool on hand is better than running out to the hardware shop in full swing.

Though, I could definitely acquire a few different tap sizes (for metal, and some for wood). Instead of purchasing ready-made goods, I could experiment with constructing similar products myself (such as fittings for conduit, plumbing repair, home improvement renovations, and the like).

Edit: This might just be the right set to start off with, http://www.lowes.com/pd_576698-281-...?productId=50247097&Ns=p_product_price|0&pl=1

Will cost $49 after applying $10 off coupon :)
Better than spending almost $100 more for a complete Metric set. And if needed, I can purchase better quality taps and/or dies "when and if needed"

Hopefully, this should help me better assess the usefulness

OP - what are you doing that requires taps and dies? I rarely need a tap and have never used a die working on cars, motorcycles and homes over the decades. I bought a Cman set of metric a few years ago when I needed one (and naturally they didn't have the single I needed) and have some SAE kicking around but generally all I have ever really needed to use have been re-threaders/restorers. Unless you are drilling and tapping a lot of bolt holes, I don't see the necessity for a DIY'er to have a large set of metric and SAE taps and dies sitting around.

:beer:
 
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gungatim

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Jan 8, 2013
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west mich
I've said it once and I'll say it again- get a size chart, Plano box, and start filling it off of EBay with quality taps and dies (if you feel the need for dies)

i'll 2nd that. it's exactly what I did. if you keep your eyes open you can find odd sizes on clearance (bought a dozen small metrics for .33 ea at Menards), and bigger taps at yard sales (picked up several 5/8 and 3/4 taps for $1 ea just last week). the big box lets you organize multiples and see where the gaps are. much cheaper and more efficient than the big sets with dedicated cases...
 
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