MrMark
Well-known member
Wouldn't expect anything less.
Taping electrical outlets?
- Thread starter Teken
- Start date
Wouldn't expect anything less.
LoneGunman
Well-known member
The FIRST thing I think of when I see tape on a device is a homeowner or handyman has been in there. I have 16 years or so in the trade, the ONLY time I have seen an ELECTRICIAN use tape on a device is if the box was packed or when working something live in a hospital where a mistake and a tripped breaker mean an azz chewing. It has nothing to do with cost, hell I must have 30 rolls of tape on my truck, I don't pay for it so I don't care how much I use. I don't use it because there is no good reason to use it. I guess it may be safer for the unskilled who may try to remove the device in the future but that's not my problem.
"Building inspector told me long ago taping an outlet is a sign of a good electrician. "
LOL really? Around here an inspector would wonder why you taped them and would probably have you remove the tape to make sure you wrapped the wire around the screw in the right direction.
:edited out of respect for Bull
"Building inspector told me long ago taping an outlet is a sign of a good electrician. "
LOL really? Around here an inspector would wonder why you taped them and would probably have you remove the tape to make sure you wrapped the wire around the screw in the right direction.
:edited out of respect for Bull
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MrMark
Well-known member
You should have left up your original post. It was better.
Geez, now I'm feeling like a lameass Johhny-homeowner type (which I guess I am!) for using the tape on both the wire nuts and the outlet perimeter on the two new outlets I put in the dining room last week. I was trying to be conscientious and do what I thought was right (was told that was the way to do it buy a guy I know who used to be an electrician) but I'm not sure I'm going to keep doing it.
I don't wanna be a lameass Johnny-H!
I don't wanna be a lameass Johnny-H!
Your inspector must be a hack..
Well, as always I really do appreciate everyone's replies and opinions. I know those in the profession have a different view about this and others follow suite regardless.
As I stated before, I simply wanted to see what others around the globe do. I love to learn, and am willing to try knew things in the pursuit of knowledge.
I have come to realize that there are allot of GJ members who not only have allot of practical knowledge, but also in the same breath also have conflicts with other GJ members.
At the end of the day I believe that there is always more than one way to skin a cat, and if there is room for improvement some where down the line things such as tape may very well become standard, and part of the codes.
One only has to go back in the last 10 -15 years and see what was once not code, or *worth* the time, is in fact required by the NEC now etc.
Bathrooms at one point in time never had GFI's, bed rooms did not have arc fault, garages did not have a fire barrier or heat detectors, 2 hour fire rated doors were no where to be seen, whole house central smoke alarms, the list goes on and on.
What I suspect will come down the pipe is a outlet that will have rubber tabs that will cover the terminals once the wire is wound, or what we see now. Where the wires are back stabbed in the rear and secured with a screw.
Many thanks to all, pro's and con's . . .
As I stated before, I simply wanted to see what others around the globe do. I love to learn, and am willing to try knew things in the pursuit of knowledge.
I have come to realize that there are allot of GJ members who not only have allot of practical knowledge, but also in the same breath also have conflicts with other GJ members.
At the end of the day I believe that there is always more than one way to skin a cat, and if there is room for improvement some where down the line things such as tape may very well become standard, and part of the codes.
One only has to go back in the last 10 -15 years and see what was once not code, or *worth* the time, is in fact required by the NEC now etc.
Bathrooms at one point in time never had GFI's, bed rooms did not have arc fault, garages did not have a fire barrier or heat detectors, 2 hour fire rated doors were no where to be seen, whole house central smoke alarms, the list goes on and on.
What I suspect will come down the pipe is a outlet that will have rubber tabs that will cover the terminals once the wire is wound, or what we see now. Where the wires are back stabbed in the rear and secured with a screw.
Many thanks to all, pro's and con's . . .
Depends on the back stab, never ever use the cheap push it in back stab. They make spec grade outlets that back stab but you when you tighten the screw it secures the wire with a clamp. They work great
I will admit to buying my outlets at Hone Depot, but I never buy the cheap ones they offer. The two I installed recently had the terminal screws but also a back-stab option. Looking at how that worked, I believe it was the better method you are describing. Seemed like there was a clamp that the wire went behind and then the screw tightened it down.
So, given the option, is one way better than the other?
Also, these new outlets seem to have a new, mandated child safety feature. Seem to be plastic pieces inside each side of the plug, and they only move out of the way if you put a plug in there.
I forsee that the standard will be back stab, and secured with a screw. Almost anyone can do this and not make a mistake. The only thing I see being a problem is if someone does not use the molded guide to measure how long the exposed wire must be.
While the other method, as standard as it is can very with the persons skill set, or lack thereof when screwing down the wire. . .
While the other method, as standard as it is can very with the persons skill set, or lack thereof when screwing down the wire. . .
It has nothing to do with money. It's all about TIME. Ever watch a real electrician work? They're highly caffeinated people. The customer get's pissed the longer the job takes, and so does the boss. Taping outlets takes unnecessary time.
Ever see them put up quick houses in the suburbs? They're lucky they get ground wires and faceplates.
Honestly, if an electrician came to my house to do work, and taped over things, I would pull it off - when I'm doing my own inspection after he leaves. I hate electrical tape on ANYTHING - if I need to insulate it's almost always heat shrink. (which is way more expensive)
I like the back stab with the screw clamp, its quick and easy. Wrapping the screw correctly works well also but it takes longer. The child proof outlets are 08 code in residential.You have to use them if you are under 08 code, I think you are.
I am going to try the back-stab/clamp method next time, then. Since I'm not a pro, it takes me some time to get the loop right on that wire to get it around the screw nice and tight.
I like the new outlet design. I think I will just replace all of the outlets in my house with that style before my daughter starts crawling around.
I agree, I love the higher grade, screw down/back stab outlets. So much quicker, for some reason I ALWAYS loop the wire the wrong way first for screws.
And for some reason I always screw in the light switch and put on the cover plate before I realize it's upside down. I've seen too many not very old cheap outlets and switches fail. Everything I do now in my house/shop is industrial grade.
MrMark
Well-known member
The ones being discussed with the clamp are called "backwire" by the manufacturer. "Backstab" refers to the push in 14 AWG wiring where the wire is inserted into a hole and contact is made with the wire by a metal spring. I personally don't like backwire either, as I don't consider the connection as solid as a wire wrapped all the way around a screw. I don't believe in speed when it comes to electricity and I use needlenose to make sure the wire goes all the way around the screw. I have had a backwire pull out when tugged on with moderate force. I find the clamping means to be poor quality. Backwire pretty much has to be used with stranded, but for solid I go with the sidewire option.
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MrMark
Well-known member
Thanks Motts.
hahahahahahaha
more . . .
http://solutions.cooperwiringdevice...e/CWD Industrial/StraightBladeReceptacles.pdf
wish I could get a clue sometimes.
hahahahahahaha
more . . .
http://solutions.cooperwiringdevice...e/CWD Industrial/StraightBladeReceptacles.pdf
wish I could get a clue sometimes.
What value did you torque the screw to? What kind of torque screwdriver do you have?
what make and model receptacle were you using?
engineer2
Well-known member
Electrical codes and practices vary so greatly around the country, you could spend years arguing about what's right and what's not. For example, most TV shows and Fine Homebuilding articles give advice on how to wire Romex, but rarely mention EMT which is required in many parts of the country. I had my nephew Union Electrician nephew over doing some wiring last week, and he taped the outlets and switches. In the past he hasn't. I'll ask his opinion.
EMT is mainly required in Chicago & it's suburbs on the behalf of unions, most of the rest of the US allows NM cable for residential wiring.
MrMark
Well-known member
Snap-on/CDI. http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item...group_ID=16437&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
Recently sent in to be calibrated too. Cost me $36 if I recall. Reno, Nevada is the place where it is done.
Probably 20 inch pounds or so, don't remember. I tend to make my connections tight, way tighter than most I would imagine. I use top notch screwdrivers (no Klein) and bits in perfect condition to get nice firm torque applied to the screw.
What kind of torque screwdriver do you have?
What kind of torque screwdriver do the electricians on the board use when they are working at their jobs?
What kind of torque wrench do the electricians use when tightening the lugs on panels?
I use Hazet, Models 6121-1CT, and 6111-1CT.
http://www.hazet.de/uploads/tx_d3mlinkedsources/kap10_e_06.pdfmmmmm Hazet
Somehow I am thinking the silence will be deafening.
What a funny question to ask me. Wow! You picked the wrong guy to ask that question.
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MrMark
Well-known member
It was a Leviton 3-way switch actually.
Backwire and sidewire options.
The clamping mechanism is poor quality and when you screw it down it kind of ***** to the side. There is a slot on either side of the screw so it could take two wires but I only use one. I did not feel that the cocked retaining clamp was a good design so I don't use the backwire anymore.
MrMark
Well-known member
You nailed it on those recepticles.
I picked the right guy. I doubt anyone believes a word you say. I'd like to see you pull a wire out a properly torqued device. Maybe you could post a video of it
MrMark
Well-known member
That's funny Walrus. I am sure they believe you with your nuggets of wisdom. Like the MWB that there are no disadvantages to and you use all the time.
I just tested it on a leviton backwire plug with a metal yoke. Solid wire. After being torqued down, when the wire is turned slightly it releases and pulls straight out. Don't believe me. Try it yourself before you make statements you can't back up.
I just tested it on a leviton backwire plug with a metal yoke. Solid wire. After being torqued down, when the wire is turned slightly it releases and pulls straight out. Don't believe me. Try it yourself before you make statements you can't back up.
Love the MWBC, awesome when guys like you can't understand them and try to work on them.
Damn. Guess some of you guys will be sitting at opposite tables during the first annual Garage Journal BBQ and Hand-shake-a-thon.
How many electricians use torque screwdrivers? That is a mind-blower. Working plumbing and HVAC with my dad through college, I saw a lot of electricians, doing everything from rough wiring to delicate control wiring. Never saw a torque device of any kind. Same goes for the guys who have worked here at my place. I'm not arguing, just genuinely surprised that some guys use them!
I like that Cooper outlet with the plastic terminal caps...other than the color, that is.
How many electricians use torque screwdrivers? That is a mind-blower. Working plumbing and HVAC with my dad through college, I saw a lot of electricians, doing everything from rough wiring to delicate control wiring. Never saw a torque device of any kind. Same goes for the guys who have worked here at my place. I'm not arguing, just genuinely surprised that some guys use them!
I like that Cooper outlet with the plastic terminal caps...other than the color, that is.
MrMark
Well-known member
That's an intelligent response. Have fun Walrus. I am sure I couldn't hope to understand the stuff you know with all your education and experience.
MrMark
Well-known member
Damn. Guess some of you guys will be sitting at opposite tables during the first annual Garage Journal BBQ and Hand-shake-a-thon.
How many electricians use torque screwdrivers? That is a mind-blower. Working plumbing and HVAC with my dad through college, I saw a lot of electricians, doing everything from rough wiring to delicate control wiring. Never saw a torque device of any kind. Same goes for the guys who have worked here at my place. I'm not arguing, just genuinely surprised that some guys use them!
I like that Cooper outlet with the plastic terminal caps...other than the color, that is.
They don't Bull, that's the point.
Most electricians don't even know there is such a thing. I have a torque screwdriver because everything electrical has a torque specified for it and I made sure I had a torque screwdriver because I was planning a lot of electrical work. If you torque lug nuts on your car you certainly should be torqueing lugs on a service panel, but NONE do. I actually have seen one electrician in a fine homebuilding article that uses a torque wrench and a torque screwdriver he picked up on ebay. But that guy is cream of the crop.
There are torque specs for everything in the electrical world. Very few use them, I see it sometimes on big stuff, never residential although some might tighten lugs with a torque wrench. I'm shocked at how hard it is to get 30-50 inch lbs with a screwdriverDamn. Guess some of you guys will be sitting at opposite tables during the first annual Garage Journal BBQ and Hand-shake-a-thon.
How many electricians use torque screwdrivers? That is a mind-blower. Working plumbing and HVAC with my dad through college, I saw a lot of electricians, doing everything from rough wiring to delicate control wiring. Never saw a torque device of any kind. Same goes for the guys who have worked here at my place. I'm not arguing, just genuinely surprised that some guys use them!
I like that Cooper outlet with the plastic terminal caps...other than the color, that is.
MrMark
Well-known member
Can't understand them? OK, here's a little test for you since you understand them so well. Where does the current go?
Wow, you can use google. Do you hate subpanels?
MrMark
Well-known member
Here's a little clue for you. Look up destructive interference.
Your above post makes no sense.
Your above post makes no sense.
KCarGuy
Well-known member
I was a Chicago IBW134 Union Electrician for 11 years, My Brother-in-Laws for 30 years and My Father-in-law until he retired.
Here, as stated earlier, we use Conduit and metal Boxes for everything. We also use a ground wire, incase a connection gets loosened up and the mechanical ground is broken.
I was taught to always tape the outlet, mainly due to the fact that it is not always possible to kill power to a breaker in an office building when working on an outlet. (you may knock out someone elses computer) So removing live outlets in a metal box is safer if it is taped. I simply stayed in that habit.
I prefer the side screw terminals. I also prefer solid wire to strainded...but each has its pros and cons. I will pay $4 for an outlet instead of buying the $0.99 ones.
I was never taught to tape wire nuts, but high voltage connections are different. We use 3 types of tape for each connection...rubber, friction and plastic electrical tape (all 3M) Some people tape going down the wires, simply to keep them together after the wire nut.
So, It depends on your area, codes and preferences. Do what makes you comfortable. Its never bad to go "overkill". Hell, let them laugh at you...its your property, you families safety.
Wrap it, Solder it, mark it, but do it right and do it well (even go up a wire size.)
Here, as stated earlier, we use Conduit and metal Boxes for everything. We also use a ground wire, incase a connection gets loosened up and the mechanical ground is broken.
I was taught to always tape the outlet, mainly due to the fact that it is not always possible to kill power to a breaker in an office building when working on an outlet. (you may knock out someone elses computer) So removing live outlets in a metal box is safer if it is taped. I simply stayed in that habit.
I prefer the side screw terminals. I also prefer solid wire to strainded...but each has its pros and cons. I will pay $4 for an outlet instead of buying the $0.99 ones.
I was never taught to tape wire nuts, but high voltage connections are different. We use 3 types of tape for each connection...rubber, friction and plastic electrical tape (all 3M) Some people tape going down the wires, simply to keep them together after the wire nut.
So, It depends on your area, codes and preferences. Do what makes you comfortable. Its never bad to go "overkill". Hell, let them laugh at you...its your property, you families safety.
Wrap it, Solder it, mark it, but do it right and do it well (even go up a wire size.)
Subpanel=MWBC
How tight should those side terminal screws be? I was taught recently by a guy to basically "tighten the ****" out of them. Can you go too tight?
Also, if you have to hook two wires around one screw, is there a trick? I dealt with this today and it took me a good long while to get them both under there in a way I thought was kosher.
Also, to Teken, if these OT replies are bothering you, please let me know and I will cease and desist. I just figured you had gotten a satisfactory answer and that it was ok to ask some questions in here since we've got the attention of some electrical folks.
Also, if you have to hook two wires around one screw, is there a trick? I dealt with this today and it took me a good long while to get them both under there in a way I thought was kosher.
Also, to Teken, if these OT replies are bothering you, please let me know and I will cease and desist. I just figured you had gotten a satisfactory answer and that it was ok to ask some questions in here since we've got the attention of some electrical folks.
Too tight is as bad as too loose, and torque tools are required & they need periodic calibration too. Just don't ask if I practice what I preach.