Tariffs on Imported Tools - 2017

[ultgar]

While the Fedex and UPS rate increases are certain for next year, there's a lot of discussion about 35-45% tariffs on imports. That'll be great for all the people on the list who insist on US Country of Origin but could be a real game changer for all the Asian and Euro exporters.

 

[LXCam]

As much as I dislike the inflation factor. Maybe this will help jumpstart American tool manufacturing again in a few years.

 

[gungatim]

fears of availability and cost certainly helped sell lots of firearms and ammo over the last few years.

perhaps these same fears will cause people to buy and stockpile hand tools.

pretty soon there will be no flex head ratchets to be found!

who will get rich creating the first tool-seeker iphone ap?

(just kidding)

 

[[memphis]]

The cost will be passed onto the consumer and it will likely still be cheaper than the truck brands. Remember people are dumb and only buy with their money and not logic.

Doubtful it's going to kickstart anything for small off brands

 

[LXCam]

Doubtful it's going to kickstart anything for small off brands

I doubt that as well. But who knows, it might be enough to bring some major brand manufacturing back here.

 

[ultgar]

The cost will be passed onto the consumer and it will likely still be cheaper than the truck brands. Remember people are dumb and only buy with their money and not logic.

Doubtful it's going to kickstart anything for small off brands

When you can buy (as an importer) a 37pc Topul socket set for $12.00, an additional 35% ($4.20) in tariff's is not going to hurt too much. Different story for big ticket items.

 

[four.cycle]

"...a lot of discussion about 35-45% tariffs on imports..."

Where is this discussion taking place? Do you have a URL for a story on this?


see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_history (scroll all the way down to "1980's to present")

 

[ultgar]

Where is this discussion taking place? Do you have a URL for a story on this?


see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_history (scroll all the way down to "1980's to present")

Its on all the network news lately since Trump threatened Carrier and anyone else with tariffs if they take their manufacturing outside the US. Do a search on "35% tariffs" and you'll have hundreds of articles to choose from. SD

 

[four.cycle]

Well... I don't watch "network news", as 99.9% of it is just propaganda now.
But thanks for pointing out that a simple Google search for "35% tariffs" will lead one to a number of fact-based articles that point out the imposition of said "35% tariffs" would result in significant negative effects on both the economy and the American consumer.

 

[ultgar]

Well... I don't watch "network news", as 99.9% of it is just propaganda now.
But thanks for pointing out that a simple Google search for "35% tariffs" will lead one to a number of fact-based articles that point out the imposition of said "35% tariffs" would result in significant negative effects on both the economy and the American consumer.

I agree....tariffs and trade work both ways.

 

[ecotec]

I am good with it. I would always prefer a product to be made in USA. I have bought many imported goods, but I try to buy American when possible.

I think automation and tariffs could help bring manufacturing back to the USA.

Maybe they could set it up so if you offshore your manufacturing, you either cannot sell the product in the US market or the tariff would be high enough that the profit would not be worth it.

A lot of products just seem to be gone... bicycles are a good example. Almost every brand of bike is made by Pacific Bikes. There has to be a way to bully stores and brands into making their products in the USA. I think high tariffs could work.

 

[L5wolvesf]

Well... I don't watch "network news", as 99.9% of it is just propaganda now.
But thanks for pointing out that a simple Google search for "35% tariffs" will lead one to a number of fact-based articles that point out the imposition of said "35% tariffs" would result in significant negative effects on both the economy and the American consumer.

Correct that is just simple business economics.

I think automation and tariffs could help bring manufacturing back to the USA.

It may bring automated manufacturing to the US but not jobs as they were before as some have claimed. That's great for the company execs.

That automation will be the same automation used in foreign manufacturing so the quality will probably be a wash.

Any manufacturing jobs done by humans in the US will be at labor rates much higher than the foreign workers get. Guess who will be paying those higher costs.

 

[four.cycle]

Correct that is just simple business economics.

Amazing how "simple business economics" continues to elude so many people who (for reasons which I find difficult to fathom) continue to believe that imposing high tariffs on imported products will somehow result in a favorable outcome for the US economy or the American consumer.

 

[T45]

It may bring automated manufacturing to the US but not jobs as they were before as some have claimed. That's great for the company execs.

What people forget is that even automated plats will bring back a lot of benefits eg, just the implicit knowledge that ends up locally in the economy. Building supply chains and solving organization problems. Infrastructure and logistics etc. Process design and troubleshooting of stages of production, etc.

That was the whole reason china strongarmed manufacturing to be taken overseas for thinsg like airplanes. They know how to actually build stuff and solve all of the little problems that arise in gen 1 of the product, so they can contribute more advanced value added to the gen2 product design (etc.).

It also seems to forget that the local tax base will still benefit from the operations locally supporting other infrastructure and service sector jobs that support or are adjacent to manufacturing centers. If you have $50mm of manufacturing business generating tax dollars that helps build roads and schools.

 

[ultgar]

New tariffs will take considerable time and effort to pass. New loopholes are pretty quick.

 

[Infinia]

discussion of rumors (and tweets) is not news or facts
we don't get real news anymore the media has been castrated
sheesh get a life ppl

 

[zendriver]

I am good with it. I would always prefer a product to be made in USA. I have bought many imported goods, but I try to buy American when possible.

We are only kidding ourselves.

As much as we Americans like to make it about themselves, manufactures now compete in a global economy and they are not going to pack up from a world class manufacturing center and relocate back to the U.S., which higher costs will effect them globally.

They will simply pass tariff costs on to consumers.

 

[shawhite]

So business economics says tariffs will not fare well for the American economy or the American consumer. So I guess the American economy is doing great with us importing more good than we are exporting and having all our good paying jobs outsourced. How does business economics say America should compete with say china where people are forced to work rediculous hours for penny's. I'm not saying tarriffs are going to fix anything but I am glad we have a president that will at least address the issue. I agree that a lot of the jobs that return to the us will be automated but that will still bring a lot of jobs back. Someone has to maintain and run this facilities and equipment so to act like there will be no net gain in jobs is a little bias to say the least. Personally the higher price will not bother me as I am one who will almost always buy American if I have an option.

 

[6PTsocket]

I am good with it. I would always prefer a product to be made in USA. I have bought many imported goods, but I try to buy American when possible.

I think automation and tariffs could help bring manufacturing back to the USA.

Maybe they could set it up so if you offshore your manufacturing, you either cannot sell the product in the US market or the tariff would be high enough that the profit would not be worth it.

A lot of products just seem to be gone... bicycles are a good example. Almost every brand of bike is made by Pacific Bikes. There has to be a way to bully stores and brands into making their products in the USA. I think high tariffs could work.

If you know anything abot economics, you would know that tarrifs lead to tarrif wars. I put a tarrif on your product. You take revenge and put a tarrif on my product. Back and forth until many products have a tarrif both ways. The American producer can no longer sell his product overseas at a competitive price and lays off people. The protected US manufacturer has no competition and raises the price on the consumer to beyond what they can afford. This is not exactly the current situation and Trump knows it. That was campaign stuff. He is snarter than that. We have Chinese currency minipulation and no respect for patent rights and we accept imports from countries the find ways to block our products. What he calls a bad deal, like NAFTA.

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[WWheeler]

Talk of tariffs is just that, talk, and it's stupid talk by people who absolutely nothing about how the world economy actually works. If it actually happens then the US manufacturing is doomed 100x worse than it already is. No amount of tariffs can bring jobs back.

Just look at what happened with the 2002 US steel tariff that was supposed to save the US steel industry and tens of thousands of jobs and combat cheap foreign steel prices. The WTO responded by issuing billions in sanctions and the US tried to drag its feet but in the end couldn't as other countries around the world responded in kind with tariffs of their own. Net result is more than twice as many US steel jobs were lost because of the tariffs. Tariffs can't preserve jobs in the long run. They lose them.

The only thing that will bring back jobs is another world war decimating some other major manufacturing countries like WWII did which created the vacuum the US filled with good paying jobs that lasted 20 or 30 years before the rest of the world was able to catch up. Either that or else maybe get rid of minimum wage so we can all work for next to nothing. Yea! not

 

[zendriver]

So business economics says tariffs will not fare well for the American economy or the American consumer. So I guess the American economy is doing great with us importing more good than we are exporting and having all our good paying jobs outsourced. How does business economics say America should compete with say china where people are forced to work rediculous hours for penny's. I'm not saying tarriffs are going to fix anything but I am glad we have a president that will at least address the issue. I agree that a lot of the jobs that return to the us will be automated but that will still bring a lot of jobs back. Someone has to maintain and run this facilities and equipment so to act like there will be no net gain in jobs is a little bias to say the least. Personally the higher price will not bother me as I am one who will almost always buy American if I have an option.

Where will these employees come from?

https://www.google.com/#q=shortage+of+factory+workers&tbs=qdr:y

I see "now hiring" signs on factories all over Indiana.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Look up the damage done to the economy with the Smoot-Hawley tariffs. While the President-Elect may think this is a solution, before they can be imposed they would have to be proposed and approved in the House of Representin and then approved in the Senate. Unlikely, at best.

 

[KEH]

"Those who don't study history are bound to repeat it." Author unknown. We have been through this before. In the early 19th century manufacturers in the US were agitating for a protective tariff. The Industrial Revolution had started in England in the textile industry just before 1800. US textile industry started soon after with men bringing plans, in their heads, usually, from England and starting textile factories. Northern states led in developing industry. The metal working industry in England was also ahead of the rest of the world. The US Southern states had a farm economy which came to depend on exporting farm products, chiefly cotton for textiles, to England. They wanted to buy metal products like farm tools from England which were cheaper because (a) England was technically ahead and could make tools cheaper and (b) England had cheaper labor. US factories wanted protective tariffs, Northern states had the most industry so they pushed for tariffs. South wanted to buy cheaper so did not want tariffs, or at least high tariffs. No income tax then and most of tax revenue came from tariffs. Problem came up when tariffs got high enough to keep people from buying imports. North wanted high enough tariffs to keep most foreign imports out. This was one of the conflicts which led to the Civil War. The income tax law in 1913 brought in huge amounts of tax money and tariffs were a less important part of the federal budget. World War II came along and Europe and Japan were devastated. Both wanted trade to pay for things they needed. The US, which had financed the war for its allies, wanted a prosperous Europe which could take care of itself and could afford to buy US products. Hidh tariff interferred with this, "free trade" became the policy.

This is a HUGE oversimplifacation but some aspects of the present situation look like history repeating itself.

KEH

 

[ptgarcia]

The only thing that will work is easing burdensome regulation. You can't wipe your nose anymore without first getting government approval.

Paul

 

[6PTsocket]

Talk of tariffs is just that, talk, and it's stupid talk by people who absolutely nothing about how the world economy actually works. If it actually happens then the US manufacturing is doomed 100x worse than it already is. No amount of tariffs can bring jobs back.

Just look at what happened with the 2002 US steel tariff that was supposed to save the US steel industry and tens of thousands of jobs and combat cheap foreign steel prices. The WTO responded by issuing billions in sanctions and the US tried to drag its feet but in the end couldn't as other countries around the world responded in kind with tariffs of their own. Net result is more than twice as many US steel jobs were lost because of the tariffs. Tariffs can't preserve jobs in the long run. They lose them.

The only thing that will bring back jobs is another world war decimating some other major manufacturing countries like WWII did which created the vacuum the US filled with good paying jobs that lasted 20 or 30 years before the rest of the world was able to catch up. Either that or else maybe get rid of minimum wage so we can all work for next to nothing. Yea! not

You can't explain economic theory to a crowd if supporters that just want somebody to clean up the mess. Trump geaduated the Wharton School of Business. He knows about the dangers of punitive tariffs. However there is plenty to be gained from trying to rectify the one sided deals that have been the norm. China's currency manipulation, Japan finding ways to hamper US imports, NAFTA. Reducing insane over regulation and corporate tax rates. Figuring how to get corporations to repatriate billions of off shore money are all areas he can work on. Also, he is not gong to cower at China's bullying. He spoke to the president of Taiwan and the Liberal press was taking cover under their desks, expecting the start of WWIII.

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[four.cycle]

Talk of tariffs is just that, talk, and it's stupid talk by people who [know] absolutely nothing about how the world economy actually works. If it actually happens then the US manufacturing is doomed 100x worse than it already is. No amount of tariffs can bring jobs back.

(emphasis added)

^ Mr. Wheeler puts it very succinctly. The bluster about "tariffs" is coming from a recently-elected political candidate who apparently thinks he's still engaged in a political campaign.

Clearly the aforementioned recently-elected political candidate never bothered to read any history, at least not the part about consequent results of imposing tariffs.

This is a bunch of nonsense, people. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid.

 

[justanengineer]

You can't explain economic theory to a crowd if supporters that just want somebody to clean up the mess. Trump geaduated the Wharton School of Business. He knows about the dangers of punitive tariffs. However there is plenty to be gained from trying to rectify the one sided deals that have been the norm. China's currency manipulation, Japan finding ways to hamper US imports, NAFTA. Reducing insane over regulation and corporate tax rates. Figuring how to get corporations to repatriate billions of off shore money are all areas he can work on. Also, he is not gong to cower at China's bullying. He spoke to the president of Taiwan and the Liberal press was taking cover under their desks, expecting the start of WWIII.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Simple fact - we havent had an elected POTUS with any significant business experience nor success in decades and consequently our manufacturing industry has been bent over for 30 years by Germany, Japan, China, and a host of others.

JMO but 1. if folks use the term "world economy," 2. believe the US manufacturing industry having a huge overseas presence is a new phenomena, or 3. believe the high point of US manufacturing occurred in the 50s or 60s.....they need to take an economics followed by a history course.

JMO but I suspect we'll see a surge of onshoring of manufacturing and specifically related to tools - I suspect we'll see the growth of many industrial brands. Hopefully this will also drive the need for skilled trades and the resurgence of industrial arts/"shop"/technology education in primary schools.

 

[6PTsocket]

Agreed wholeheartedly. Simple fact - we havent had an elected POTUS with any significant business experience nor success in decades and consequently our manufacturing industry has been bent over for 30 years by Germany, Japan, China, and a host of others.

JMO but 1. if folks use the term "world economy," 2. believe the US manufacturing industry having a huge overseas presence is a new phenomena, or 3. believe the high point of US manufacturing occurred in the 50s or 60s.....they need to take an economics followed by a history course.

JMO but I suspect we'll see a surge of onshoring of manufacturing and specifically related to tools - I suspect we'll see the growth of many industrial brands. Hopefully this will also drive the need for skilled trades and the resurgence of industrial arts/"shop"/technology education in primary schools.

We also have many years of demeaning manual skills.As a result we have a younger generation with useless diplomas and huge loan debt who are befuddled by the fact that nobody is waiting to give them a high paying job. Getting their hands dirty is beneath them. On the other hand, industry cannot find welders, machinists and any number of technically skilled people.

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[oldtools]

Where will these employees come from?

https://www.google.com/#q=shortage+of+factory+workers&tbs=qdr:y

I see "now hiring" signs on factories all over Indiana.

Problem is American want jobs that require no skill but pay alot.

 

[oldtools]

US has trade deficit with every countries it trade with. If US don't want those trade deficit, stop buying. POST tariff on US companies that offshore will only hurt US companies as it will make them less competitive. If he impose tariff on imports to compensate for that, other countries will retaliate with tariff of their own. If he band foreign workers, who will keep US tech companies humming at the high end and who will do the jobs that Americans do not want to do at the low end (ie farm workers).

 

[Wamsutta]

Problem is American want jobs that require no skill but pay alot.

I don't mind putting forth the effort to go to a trade school and learn a skill, but I wish the employers would come knocking on my door when they need a worker instead of me having to go out into town to apply at their office. It would be so much more convenient for me that way.

 

[T45]

Meanwhile, in reality, there are basically no tarrifs on importing tools right now. Ithink the tarrif on german tools is either 3 or 6% or something--basically cheaper than ebay selling fees. I have no issue with this tho when it comes to importing high quality tools made with highly skilled labour.

Its one thing to support other companies that act ethically are are natually founded overseas by local peopoe/artisans. Its another thing to support the offshoring of jobs and value from companies that were set up and supported locally for years and then were offshored and restructured so the value created by those communities and those workers now accumulates to a tine percentage of the population and no longer support society more broadly.

Thats really a different issue altogether.

 

[Wamsutta]

Harbor Freight keeps raising their prices even without tariffs. $100 for a Chinese made floor jack is ridiculous.

 

[Schurkey]

America is a country carrying huge (yyyuge?) trade deficits with multiple countries. I'd be entirely willing to add tariffs to any country we currently have a deficit with. Or outright "denial". They don't buy from us...we don't buy from them. Dollar-for-dollar.

ANYTHING that slows down the flood of money going to China, Vietnam, and India will have my approval. I'd consider most anything EXCEPT what our treasonous politicians have been doing for the last thirty or forty years--giving away the store so that Big Business gets rich, and the middle class gets screwed.

Historically, the mother country exports finished goods, and imports raw materials from it's colonies. What does that say about our relationship with China?

 

[bushmechanic]

I don't think enough people realize that "tariff" is simply the word chosen to get people to understand what little they can and get on board. The whole idea is to rile people up and gain support for the long process and negotiations to follow.

There's a hell of a lot more behind his ideas, in that regard. It'll take some work, but with revised import regulation and enforcement/renegotiation of trade deals that have been left to flounder, things can slowly begin to change for the better.

Nobody has any intention of calling up China one night and telling them that, starting the next day, they'll have a 35% financial wall in between us.

The word and the numbers being thrown around are just politics. The action is going to be a much smoother and carefully negotiated series of arrangements. It needs to be done. It's been needed for decades now.

 

[tonyciambrone]

I'm not really impressed by all the economic theorizing going on here. I like it better when this forum is about tools, politics on the side than vice versa

 

[bushmechanic]

I'm not really impressed by all the economic theorizing going on here. I like it better when this forum is about tools, politics on the side than vice versa

It's hypothesizing, not theorizing; and there's nothing wrong with breaking things up every now and again. This forum is nothing if not endlessly repetitious, and a change of pace is fun.

In the world of tools, this is a notably contemporary issue. A vast bulk of the information stored in relation to this forum is dedicated to issues regarding subjects that are directly related to the questions posed in this thread.

Such discussions are nauseatingly commonplace here. This thread is, so far, focused on questioning solutions rather than griping about the same old problems.

Isn't that better?

 

[buckwheat_la]

Just to put my 2 cents in as a Canadian. Reading all your comments and I wonder how many people think about this from the other side? First off inflation, you guys don't seem to believe all your prices will go UP and I can gurantee them it will. Secondly you assume that those same countries won't start to deny trading in ALL products. You can put a Tariff on tools but then those same countries won't trade other products with you that you may have a desire for (ie raw materials etc). And you will convince those other countries to find other markets for their goods and services. Lets take NAFTA, you know that there are many extras in that trade agreement that one sidedly benefit the USA. You think that if you open the door to renegotiating it that Canada is going to want those things to be negotiated too?

 

[oldtools]

America is a country carrying huge (yyyuge?) trade deficits with multiple countries. I'd be entirely willing to add tariffs to any country we currently have a deficit with. Or outright "denial". They don't buy from us...we don't buy from them. Dollar-for-dollar.

ANYTHING that slows down the flood of money going to China, Vietnam, and India will have my approval. I'd consider most anything EXCEPT what our treasonous politicians have been doing for the last thirty or forty years--giving away the store so that Big Business gets rich, and the middle class gets screwed.

Historically, the mother country exports finished goods, and imports raw materials from it's colonies. What does that say about our relationship with China?

American worker with their high salary cannot afford their own product, how do you expect foreigner to buy American product especially those making 1/10 of US worker. For example, the small portion of the wealthy Chinese population can afford US product, but the majority are poor and cannot afford US product. The article below has a good explaination of why US has trade deficit and a trade war will not solve it.

https://www.cato.org/publications/congressional-testimony/americas-misunderstood-trade-deficit

 

[dnschmidt]

This is nonsense. Trump isn't that big of a *****, he just plays one on TV. Why the hell do you think he makes his ties in China? This thing with United Technologies is just for show. He has leverage over UT because they are a massive defense contractor. Most companies aren't.

Bluster apparently can win an election. It can't change the course of history.

WWheeler has it exactly right. The problem in the world today is that there is too much of everything, especially people. Our normal historical methods of population control, War, Pestilence and Famine have all been tamed. You can't have a war were you chew through millions of men while the factories back home hum along because some ******* will go nuclear and then everything goes to ****. Science has cured Bubonic Plague and fed the world.

The reason for this so called and completely imaginary "American Exceptionalism" was that the rest of the world had the **** knocked out of it. We were not exceptional they were simply down and out after WWII having lost half of their populations and most of their means of production.

The American standard of living was caused by the scarcity of workers. Where do you think the idea of employee benefits came from. Did you just think that employer paid healthcare just fell from the sky? It came from the fact that during WWII there were iron clad wage and price controls in effect. The only way to steal people was by offering them health insurance, vacation time and benefits. You couldn't offer them a raise or you went to jail. Did anybody ever think that businessmen would willingly give away money if they didn't have to? I'm from Pittsburgh maybe you should read the history of the American Labor Movement if you'd like to learn about how happy Andrew Carnegie was about the formation of the United Steelworkers Union. Search on that + Pinkertons to see how many died to get a living wage.

So unless somebody finds a way to kill billions of non-US people the value of an American worker will continue to decline and so too will the American standard of living as he now completes against the rest of the world. Nothing is going to change this. Unless you have some unique and valued skill you're just dog meat out there today.

From the standpoint of America WWII was the greatest thing of all time. Your major competitors: Germany, Japan and Britain laid in ruins with not one bomb falling on American soil. This was a once in the history of the world event. It will never happen again.