Tempered Glass Windows- Home Inspection

[brycez28]

I was looking to replace the windows in my house and sunroom. Someone came out last week from Champion Windows, then Monday night someone came from Lowes and tonight someone came from Home Depot. The guy from home depot walked into the sunroom and the first thing he did was measure the distance from the floor to the bottom of the window....15". Apprently because the windows aren't at least 18" from the floor and are more than 36" high, they need to be tempered glass per code. Neither of the other guys that came to quote windows mentioned this. The house was built in 1949 and the sunroom was added in 1989. We bought the house this past March, shouldn't the inspector have pointed this out because the current windows in there clearly are not tempered???? The price difference between replacement windows that are tempered and not tempered for the sunroom is over $3600.

This is what the code says:
- 7. Glazing in an individual fixed or operable panel that meets all of the following conditions:
-Exposed area of an individual pane larger than 9 square feet (0.836 m
-Bottom edge less than 18 inches (457 mm) above the floor.
-Top edge more than 36 inches (914 mm) above the floor.
-One or more walking surfaces within 36 inches (914 mm) horizontally of the glazing.


I.e., the glazing would need to be: Exposed area of an individual pane larger than 9 square feet AND Bottom edge less than 18 inches (457 mm) above the floor AND Top edge more than 36 inches (914 mm) above the floor AND One or more walking surfaces within 36 inches (914 mm) horizontally of the glazing.

 

[Boomer343]

Your 1949 house would be condemned if every item not to current code was listed. Inspector would look at the windows as being to code when installed.

If you are looking for compensation from the home inspector you won't get it.

One thing you may want to check before putting money into new windows is if there was a permit for the sun room addition and if you need a permit to replace the existing windows.

You can also do a work around on the tempered glass by splitting the window horizontally and only installing the tempered glass in the bottom section.

 

[BrerHair]

Yep, that's the same code we build to down here. That guy is your window guy, he knows his ****.

 

[brycez28]

I understand that because of the age there are thinks not to todays code, but I think the window thing was code before the sunroom was built (I would like to verify if someone knows for sure). And when you are looking at $13k to have the sunroom windows replaced, that is way more expensive than not having a gfi outlet at the sink. I'm just really peeved that it wasn't pointed out. (and we did order all new windows for the house with the home depot sales guy)

Moving forward, I'm going to look into remodeling the sunroom and redesign the window holes to fit new windows, which will include raising the bottom level of the windows above the 18" so I don't need tempered glass. There is also an old through-wall natural gas space heater in there that I would be able to take out and then not worry about trying to match the stain on the walls because I will have to redo them anyway.

 

[bigdav160]

IIRC, the tempered window thing was 2000

 

[Norcal]

IIRC, the tempered window thing was 2000

A lot earlier then that, late 60's or so.

 

[nehog]

I don't see the problem here. You are replacing the windows, are you saying that someone was doing something wrong and you were hurt? It doesn't matter what was in there, you decided they were inadequate for the job. One supplier knew the code and quoted the right windows. So where is the problem?

IMHO use the supplier who knew his stuff, and thank the others for coming out and giving you prices.

 

[gte718p]

As long as they are old your fine. Generally as soon as you make changes you have ti come to current code.

I'll second going with the guy who knows his business.

 

[MackMan]

Seems rather shocking that the HD guy knew what the Champion people didn't. Isn't Champion supposed to be high-end?

 

[tdkkart]

The only real crime hear is the $3600 price difference. Is tempered glass that expensive??

AND, why didn't the estimator offer an alternative?? Did you specify a single pane of glass?? The way I read the code, any window with panes smaller than 9 sq/ft would be exempt, so most any double hung window in that space would be legal without tempered glass.

 

[dawgee]

Look into Sunrise windows very nice stuff they make the windows for Owens-Corning

 

[brycez28]

The only real crime hear is the $3600 price difference. Is tempered glass that expensive??

AND, why didn't the estimator offer an alternative?? Did you specify a single pane of glass?? The way I read the code, any window with panes smaller than 9 sq/ft would be exempt, so most any double hung window in that space would be legal without tempered glass.

We looked at double hungs, with the space of the hole the pane would be about 9.5 square feet

 

[brycez28]

Seems rather shocking that the HD guy knew what the Champion people didn't. Isn't Champion supposed to be high-end?

I thought Champion was supposed to be high-end, but the sales guy wasn't very nice. He did his measurements, and then gave me his price ($16k) and asked if that was around what I thought it would be. I said that was higher than I expected, but I ddin't really know what to expect. Then he went on a rant about cheaper windows and told me not to even bother replacing my windows upstairs (leaking double panes) if I don't go with his windows and then he left.

The home depot guy was retired (was a sales person at Sears) and he said Home Depot called him every 3 months asking if he would take a job with them. After a couple years of retirement he decided to take Home Depot up on their offer.

 

[tdkkart]

We looked at double hungs, with the space of the hole the pane would be about 9.5 square feet

The glass in the bottom sash would be more than 3x3 ft??
They don't look that big??

 

[PCMusicGuy]

How many windows are you talking? From the picture, I only see 1 (possibly two) that is within the 36" to a walking surface. I just came across this issue in a brand new house. The windows that were between the family room and outdoor patio were tempered. The windows that were towards the back yard were not. The glass only needs to be tempered when it meets all qualifications. Just because you may walk near the window on the inside or outside of the home does not fulfill the last requirement in your list.

 

[brycez28]

The glass in the bottom sash would be more than 3x3 ft??
They don't look that big??

The window space is 112"w x 68"h. So, 1/3 of 112 is 37" and half of 68" is 34"....which would be about 8.7 square feet minus the framing......hmmmmmm......I don't know where the sales guy got 9.5 because I asked him about that. I'll have to look into that option again!

 

[brycez28]

How many windows are you talking? From the picture, I only see 1 (possibly two) that is within the 36" to a walking surface. I just came across this issue in a brand new house. The windows that were between the family room and outdoor patio were tempered. The windows that were towards the back yard were not. The glass only needs to be tempered when it meets all qualifications. Just because you may walk near the window on the inside or outside of the home does not fulfill the last requirement in your list.

That would be correct, there would only be 2 windows within 36" of the sidewalk. The sales guy thought that the walking space in the room would meet the requirement for the tempered glass. I haven't found any literature yet to clearly define that either way.

 

[hedhunter9]

I had the same issue with a house we bought to use as a rental.
The window company told us the same thing. Had to have tempered windows if less than 18 inchs from the floor... and the walking space was inside, not outside.
and the price jumped up a lot, so we passed on the new windows and just added new storm windows outside of the old windows.

Bob

 

[hedhunter9]

And the reason he gave us was, If a toddler tripped and fell into the window, the tempered glass would protect him from serious damage.

Bob

 

[epmills]

A friend of mine ran into this issue when he did some home remodeling. He was able to add a film to the window which made it comply with code, you may want to look into that option. It was something similar to: http://www.shattergard.com/home.html, basically a clear film that keeps the glass adhered to it in the event it breaks. Its not cheap, but is cheaper than buying tempered glass.

 

[justanengineer]

JMHO, but I'd gut that room, reframe it for standard double-hung windows, and install them myself. Its not an overly difficult job and I doubt youd end up with $3k cost. Sorry, but Ive replaced nearly every window in my house with top quality Andersons bought on sale and it hasnt been $10k, much less the $13k-16k youre discussing for just one room.

Out of curiosity, what brand of window is actually getting installed? The box stores can order some really nice windows but also carry some real ****.

 

[cderalow]

Seems rather shocking that the HD guy knew what the Champion people didn't. Isn't Champion supposed to be high-end?

we actually just went through this process on our home with home depot. They actually did a great job, and their salesman was surprisingly knowledgeable compared to the guys from Anderson and Thompson Creek.

All in all, a pleasant experience that has made a world of difference in the temperature of our lower level.

We also had the tempered thing come up. Fortunately our windows were closer to the 18" measurement at 16", and by the time they add the frame material, the glass itself was above the 18" requirement. It probably won't be much.

I'd look into seeing how much blocking you'd need to use to make the bottom of the glazing... note, the actual glass is the measurement point... above 18".

 

[Zeke]

The difference between tempered and non tempered is about $5 per sq ft retail. If I were you I'd raise the height of the bottom edge by installing a false sill 3" high. Make it a plant shelf if you want to get creative. Another way to do it is to use what they call a T-bar window which is basically 2 windows joined horizontally or vertically into one unit. You'd have a minimum height fixed tempered window along the bottom with a conventional window unit on top. This solution might not save you all that much money due to the added cost of the T-bar process. Just pointing out there are solutions. Most salespeople don't know much about the options. Call another window company for more ideas and then get one of them to give you a good price on the best idea. I like independent owner operated companies like I was.

Edit: I have been thinking on this and the new window frame will hold the glass edge higher than the existing jalousie type windows. You may only have to add like an inch. Get specs or architectural drawings of the proposed windows and measure the frame and sash height at the bottom. A slider will be the tallest.

All of the window next to the door will have to be tempered regardless.

 

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Which windows did you get from Home Depot, vinyl or wood?
Do you have the name of the salesman? I don't need windows but I know some of those guys and was just curious.
Regardless, their installed windows are a step above the DIY windows offered in the store, and will come with a lifetime warranty.
You WILL be very happy with your project.

 

[bigdav160]

A lot earlier then that, late 60's or so.

Perhaps in California?

I little search dug up this:

Tempered Glass Locations starting with the California Code later adopted Nationwide
1961...Shower enclosures must be tempered safety laminated or wired.
1964...Glass doors, glass in doors and glass panels within 18 inches of a walking surface had to comply with the impact-rated glass if subjected to accidental human impact. Tempered-glass must be etched.
1976...Complete rewrite: Glass in doors, glazing immediately adjacent to doors, glass adjacent to any walking surface, sliding glass doors and fixed glass panels, shower doors and enclosures had to be tempered, safety laminated or wired.
1979...Wire glass no longer approved for shower and bathtub enclosures.
1982... Expanded section to include all cases where safety glazing is required: glass doors, sliding and fixed panels, storm doors, unframed swinging glass doors, shower and bath tub enclosures, glazing within 12 inches of a swinging door, fixed glass panels less than 18 inches above the finish floor and within 36 inches of a walking surface. An exemption for protective was included.
1988...No change except that glass in rails was included.
1991... Glass windows in shower or bathtub enclosures were included. Glass panels within 24 inches of the vertical side of a door were also added. Exceptions were reformatted.
1994... No changes except those glass panels forming swimming pool enclosures have to be safety laminated or tempered within 5 feet of a pool deck. Also, glazing enclosing a stairway landing or within 5 feet of the top or bottom of a stairway must be safety laminated or tempered.
2000 IRC 7. Glazing in an individual fixed or operable panel, other than those locations described in Items 5 and 6 , that meets all of the following conditions:
7.1 Exposed area of an individual pane greater than 9 sf.
7.2 Bottom edge less than 18 inches above the floor.
7.3 Top edge greater than 36 inches above the floor.
7.4 One or more walking surfaces within 36 inches of the glazing.
2003 IRC
R308.4 Hazardous locations......

 

[Architorture]

Just slap a "protective bar" at 34" aff in front of the window...that will meet the requirements of the typical ICC codes...remove at your leisure

The price difference comes from the ease of handling for materials. You can't cut tempered glass after it has been tempered so every piece has to be made for its use...you can't just have large stock that gets cut down like regular annealed glass

 

[6768rogues]

Up until about 2000, most states used a version of one of three model codes (ICBO, SBCC or BOCA). I say most because New York and Wisconsin were the only two states that had their own unique codes. I am in NY and your information says you are in WI. That said, I have no idea what your code required over 10 years ago. In about 2000 (depends on state) the three model codes combined to create the International Building Code and almost all states adopted it. NY did and WI probably did. The citation you made about the glass is correct according to the International Code. I put my sunporch windows 20" from the floor to get away from the requirement. I did price one large window that was about $1000 and it would have been about $100 more had I chosen tempered glass. Maybe you need more prices to get that tempered glass a little cheaper.

 

[Architorture]

Also many jalousie windows are made from tempered glass because the slender horizontal panes benefit from the added strength...so technically they may already have the required safety glass in place

 

[brycez28]

Which windows did you get from Home Depot, vinyl or wood?
Do you have the name of the salesman? I don't need windows but I know some of those guys and was just curious.
Regardless, their installed windows are a step above the DIY windows offered in the store, and will come with a lifetime warranty.
You WILL be very happy with your project.

I got vinyl with the colonial style grid. The salesman was Frank Schneider.

It sounds like these windows are designed much better than your typical double hung window. Instead of the upper and lower panes sliding past each other and being sealed together with the lock, these windows actually interlock and have the same seal system as a fridge.

 

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Frank is good...he works as a team with his wife Carol. Very customer service oriented.
Sounds like you got Simonton "Vantage Pointe".....four years in a row rated the best by JDPowers & Associates in consumer surveys. Sound familiar?

 

[brycez28]

Frank is good...he works as a team with his wife Carol. Very customer service oriented.
Sounds like you got Simonton "Vantage Pointe".....four years in a row rated the best by JDPowers & Associates in consumer surveys. Sound familiar?

Yes it does! He was here for over 3 hours last night looking at my windows and answering our questions. Then of course all the paperwork to purchase the windows.