neverenoughtools
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Has anyone had any experience with these units ?
Tempstar furnace
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rickairmedic
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Yes dont buy one 
. They are one of the cheapest units on the market .
Rick
. They are one of the cheapest units on the market .Rick
danski0224
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Coming from someone that installs Goodman... cheap compared to what?
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1332067&postcount=17
I'll take Tempstar or Heil any day of the week.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1332067&postcount=17
I'll take Tempstar or Heil any day of the week.
rickairmedic
Well-known member
I have seen alot of issues with Tempstars especially with the so called " smart valves " .
Rick
Rick
danski0224
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Zero problems with Tempstar or Heil from this end.
cowboyjosh
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My last house came equipped with a Tempstar, I went thru a blower motor, 2 Honeywell Smart Valves, and 2 control boards. Looking back I put more money into that damned thing then I would have, had I just replaced the sumbitch, but everytime it quit it was 0 outside and the fix was a shorter wait then a furnace changeout.
danski0224
Well-known member
Brown or grey Smart Valves? I have been working with the grey ones for about 10 years now, as installed by various furnace manufacturers, and have yet to have a failure.
The brown ones are a different matter. Those aren't used anymore in new equipment.
Improper gas piping (no or wrong dirt leg) will allow stuff to get into the valve and ruin it.
Control boards are frequently mis-diagnosed.
Blower motors are frequently killed by 2 things:
(1) people that use those 1" pleated filters- believe me when I tell you that 99.8% of residential duct systems can't handle those filters and they are too restrictive when new out of the package... 90 days later and full of dirt is even worse.
(2) using the heating system as a temporary heater (or AC, depending on where you are) during construction. The eventual homeowners HVAC system is used for temporary heat/cooling during construction, and drywall dust kills it. Use in this manner voids the OE warranty. Builders are too cheap to pay for an independent temporary heat system so they stick it to the HVAC contractors and homeowners by destroying the equipment and filling the ducts with construction debris.
Power surges/storms will also take out or damage electronic components.
I'm not saying that you didn't have a lemon, but there are many causes for failure, and usually a piece of HVAC equipment will fail when it is operating the most.
Manufacturers don't like to pay warranty claims or give out free parts. The stuff is pretty reliable out of the box if it is installed right. Doesn't matter what name is on the box.
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cowboyjosh
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That furnace had the older style smart valve, furnace was installed in 97, the house is a ****** tract home in Highlands Ranch, Co that i no longer own, thank God. Th HVAC system was installed piss poor at best, lots of leaky duct work, obstructed air flow, etc. The control board, orig went bad, they replaced, new one went bad in about a month, they replaced again, under warranty, no more issues with cb after that. I attributed llot of that furnace problem to sloppy construction and a bad install, but even so it still put a bad taste in my mouth for Tempstar.
Bought a new Tempstar as a replacement unit several years ago....High efficiency bla bla bla, 2 years later it died. the new furnace guy said that they had been recalled and I COULD HAVE gotten a free replacement, including labor cost. But no my original installer never told me about this recall, and he had been out to service it several times, as I had issues with it.
I lost a lot money on it, only got 2 years out of it, and it never did work well, noisy as hell. So no I would not recommend them to anyone.
I lost a lot money on it, only got 2 years out of it, and it never did work well, noisy as hell. So no I would not recommend them to anyone.
danski0224
Well-known member
From what I read, the problems are mostly related to the builder, not the piece of equipment.
You would still have had problems if the box had another name on it.
The HVAC company will do the work to the standards allowed by the builder... if he wasn't paying much for mechanicals, the homeowners got **** for a system... and hopefully it held together long enough for the builder "warranty". That's how the game works.
Dkramer
Well-known member
Exactly!! Your furnace is only as good as the rest of the system, (duct work) that it is installed on. The best furnace will not work properly or last very long if the duct system is undersized or restricted in other ways. I have not seen more of a failure rate in Tempstar over other brands. (Tempstar is made by Carrier now.) The older smart valves did have a problem. They were installed on numerous makes, not just Tempstar. It has always amazed me that contractors and home owners will cut corners on the heating system, but have every thing else in the house high dollar. If it isn't seen then make it cheap. We are talking comfort here not looks. It should be one of the best installed things in your house.
I've had a Tempstar DC90 furnace which came with my house. I did have a main gas valve fail intermittently, (not opening) until I would tweek on the electrical connection to the flame sensor. Replaced both for good measure, otherwise it has been problem free.
What is this 1 inch pleated filter thing above all about? I run the 16x20x1 3M Filtrete filters. If these high efficiency filters are no good, then what should we be running?
What is this 1 inch pleated filter thing above all about? I run the 16x20x1 3M Filtrete filters. If these high efficiency filters are no good, then what should we be running?
The cheapy spun fiberglass filters. If you want better air filtration, you should install an air cleaner.
rickairmedic
Well-known member
Personally 3M filters filter to well honestly they slow down the airflow going through the furnace to much . Now this is personal preferance as well but I recomend to most of my customers the Flanders brand pleated filters . They are still a pleated filter but not as tightly pleated as the 3M's . I actually usually buy mine at Home depot or Lowes for between $6.50 and $8.50 a 3 pack which is actually a better price than I can get them for by the case from my " wholesale " suppliers. I also change my filters and tell my customers as well " once a month " especialy durring the summer when diminished airflow to the evaporator coil can cause problems with the compressor in the outside condensor due to the fact the Freon may not completely evaporate from a liquid into a gas before returning to the condensor.
Rick
Rick
cowboyjosh
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What do you think about Honeywell Electronic Air Cleaners? Thats what I have on my 3 furnaces. The only PITA is frequently having to wash the cells.
rickairmedic
Well-known member
Josh my only issue with electronic filters is " when one of the wires breaks in one of the cells " it will cost as much to repair that cell as it will to replace the whole air cleaner itself. I actually won an award for indoor air quality from Carrier " several " years ago . I am a firm believer of ultruviolet systems " when needed " but they only clean the air not the particulates in the air . I have always used 1" pleated filters " not 3M " in my installs and it is what I recomend to my regular customers . Now with that said if you have people in your house with breathing issues or allergies then you need more than a 1" filter is going to give you. I will also say I have never sold an ultraviolet system to a customer that didnt have a " medical need "for it and in those cases I recomend a Sanuvox system sized to their home.
Rick
Rick
I'd say it really comes down to the local dealer and your serviceman. The best unit in the world is only as good as the guy who takes care of it.
And the aforementioned advice about changing the filter is
Many years ago, a study came out that determined almost 50% of all HVAC problems were directly or indirectly related to poor filter maintenance. People just don't do it/forget/ try to save money. I once serviced an apartment complex that did their own filters religiously every month. The maintenance guys there hated it - every month changing 200 filters. Very rarely did I go out there for problems. The units just never seemed to break down. And they were using cheapie filters! Regular, religious filter changes makes a difference.
I tell my customers to change their filter once a month - when the electric bill comes in. You dont' have to worry about remembering, and you'll never forget - because they won't!
Buy a box of filters - they usually come 12 to a box. You can sometimes get a discount for buying "in bulk". If you only buy one or two, they have to break open a box to get those for you, and they'll ream you on the price. Get a box of 12, and you're set for a year!
Use a pleated-style filter, look for a MERV rating of at least 8, and spray it with Endust before installing it. Makes the dust rag hold more dirt, it'll help the filter catch more dirt!
And the aforementioned advice about changing the filter is
Many years ago, a study came out that determined almost 50% of all HVAC problems were directly or indirectly related to poor filter maintenance. People just don't do it/forget/ try to save money. I once serviced an apartment complex that did their own filters religiously every month. The maintenance guys there hated it - every month changing 200 filters. Very rarely did I go out there for problems. The units just never seemed to break down. And they were using cheapie filters! Regular, religious filter changes makes a difference.
I tell my customers to change their filter once a month - when the electric bill comes in. You dont' have to worry about remembering, and you'll never forget - because they won't!
Buy a box of filters - they usually come 12 to a box. You can sometimes get a discount for buying "in bulk". If you only buy one or two, they have to break open a box to get those for you, and they'll ream you on the price. Get a box of 12, and you're set for a year!
Use a pleated-style filter, look for a MERV rating of at least 8, and spray it with Endust before installing it. Makes the dust rag hold more dirt, it'll help the filter catch more dirt!
danski0224
Well-known member
Filters
The 3M filters are good and they do their job.
The problem is related to airflow and system design.
Residential duct systems and residential furnace/air handler blowers are not normally designed to work with the added restriction from these filters.
The fan on a typical residential furnace is rated to deliver a quantity of air at a specific design static pressure. The pressure is typically listed at .5" of water column... max.
This .5" wc is for the whole system...
Resistance of the supply duct, return duct, AC coil (which has wet and dry specifications) and the filter.
A typical AC coil can have .35" all by itself.
When the TESP (Total External Static Pressure) exceeds the fan rating, the amount of air delivered goes down and energy costs go up... contrary to the marketing printed on the packaging.
BTU delivery is directly related to airflow across the heat exchanger medium. Lower airflow = lower BTU's delivered given the same quantity of energy input (gas/electricity). It's simple math.
Fan horsepower compared to static pressure is a cube function. The numbers change very quickly.
Find a HVAC peson that has a digital manometer and knows how to take a TESP reading. If the person knows what those things are, you are getting close.
Take a TESP reading with your 3M filter.
Take one with a plain fiberglass filter.
The readings aren't BS.
Any 1" pleated filter will have similar effects if the system is not designed for it.
4" and deeper media filters have more surface area, so they are less restrictive as long as the airflow is correct. Restriction goes up as airflow increases across a given size of filter media. That is shown in manufacturer specs.
There is a lot of energy wasted in mediocre residential HVAC systems.
Use a plain old 1" fiberglass filter. That's all your system can handle (if you are lucky), until you can have the system evaluated.
The 3M filters are good and they do their job.
The problem is related to airflow and system design.
Residential duct systems and residential furnace/air handler blowers are not normally designed to work with the added restriction from these filters.
The fan on a typical residential furnace is rated to deliver a quantity of air at a specific design static pressure. The pressure is typically listed at .5" of water column... max.
This .5" wc is for the whole system...
Resistance of the supply duct, return duct, AC coil (which has wet and dry specifications) and the filter.
A typical AC coil can have .35" all by itself.
When the TESP (Total External Static Pressure) exceeds the fan rating, the amount of air delivered goes down and energy costs go up... contrary to the marketing printed on the packaging.
BTU delivery is directly related to airflow across the heat exchanger medium. Lower airflow = lower BTU's delivered given the same quantity of energy input (gas/electricity). It's simple math.
Fan horsepower compared to static pressure is a cube function. The numbers change very quickly.
Find a HVAC peson that has a digital manometer and knows how to take a TESP reading. If the person knows what those things are, you are getting close.
Take a TESP reading with your 3M filter.
Take one with a plain fiberglass filter.
The readings aren't BS.
Any 1" pleated filter will have similar effects if the system is not designed for it.
4" and deeper media filters have more surface area, so they are less restrictive as long as the airflow is correct. Restriction goes up as airflow increases across a given size of filter media. That is shown in manufacturer specs.
There is a lot of energy wasted in mediocre residential HVAC systems.
Use a plain old 1" fiberglass filter. That's all your system can handle (if you are lucky), until you can have the system evaluated.
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cowboyjosh
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I've had home owners call and file warranty claims with me in the summer cause the air conditioner freezes up or quits working, only for my HVAC guy to go out and see that their is a 3m filter that hasn't been changed that is full of dust, dog hair, and ****; thus reducing air across the AC coils. Of course being a ignorant homeowner isn't covered under warranty.
cowboyjosh
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Yep, don't those Honeywells have a one time blow fuse in the power module? I had one go about 2 days after it was installed; but after the dealer replacing the power module top thing, 4 years later its still trouble free. Its going to be in the 50's over the course of the next 10 days around here, reckon I'll be cleaning those damned cells again.
One of my customers who bought a house from me had IQAir whole house HEPA installed after they repaired the house and installed new furnaces and air conditioning after suffering a fire (destroyed 30% of the house) during the summer of 09 caused by a lightning strike; they talk up the IQAirs, but I would too if I paid something like 3k for each unit (house has 2 furnaces).
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rickairmedic
Well-known member
Josh dont wait for warm weather put those bad boys in the dishwasher . We are expecting a heat wave next week . I just got back in from a service call and its currently 16* and feels like 9* next week we may actually see 65* .
Rick
. We are expecting a heat wave next week . I just got back in from a service call and its currently 16* and feels like 9* next week we may actually see 65* .Rick
danski0224
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csp
Well-known member
[hijack] Is your HVAC guy Viking in Parker, by chance? Seeing your name, location, and other things I think I might know you.[/hijack]
Re: Filters
I go through this all the time. I tell customers not to use them, and they take the word of the Home Depot guy over mine, or don't listen because of what it says on the package. I now have decals I stick on my jobs next to the filter rack that say use of a pleated filter is not recommended and may void system warranty. It really is a big problem.
But the package says good for 90 days....
I go through this all the time. I tell customers not to use them, and they take the word of the Home Depot guy over mine, or don't listen because of what it says on the package. I now have decals I stick on my jobs next to the filter rack that say use of a pleated filter is not recommended and may void system warranty. It really is a big problem.
cowboyjosh
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Nope, not Viking. We do use a outfit out of Parker (Parker Air) once in awhile im sure you have seen their vans around, we also use a A&B out of Castle Rock (probably the best HVAC guy in Douglas county) and once in awhile we use Franklin Electric / HVAC out of Highlands Ranch. We stll bid HVAC out on new builds, but we are exclusive to our electrical contractor (Pine Valley) who is located in Parker and other trades like garage doors(Elizabeth garage door) plumbing(RMW Larkspur), etc.
csp
Well-known member
I was only curious specifically about Viking. I know a builder named Josh who lives in Franktown who exclusively uses Viking. Thought you might be him.
On the other hand, I snowmobile occasionally with the owner of Pine Valley.
[/endhijack]
On the other hand, I snowmobile occasionally with the owner of Pine Valley.
[/endhijack]
cowboyjosh
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Both Dave and Kevin from Pine Valley Electric are good guys, unfortunately the electrical contracting company i own is in Arizona and were not licensed in Colorado, so up here thats why I use Pine Valley. I also like Pine Valley Electric because they use Square D QO and other top shelf materials and we rarely have to call them back for warranty issues or **** that wasnt done right, and during construction they have never held us up.
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