Termite Damaged Header

[entrtaner]

Help! I've been lurking on these forums for the last few months since purchasing my first house. Mostly looking at what people have done to correct issues in their garage, since mine has plenty of issues.

I found that we had termite damage on the sill plate of the exterior wall of the garage and proceeded to pull down all of the (poorly installed) drywall that the former owners had put up. Turns out the damage extends up into a couple of the 2x4s on that exterior wall, but not a big deal. Got a contractor to come in, gave me a fair price and is going to replace the sill, the concrete block under it that was damaged and either sister (where possible) or replace the 2x4s. I'm happy with the price, happy that he's able to start next week.

What I'm not happy about is that I made a mistake...like we all do from time to time. I totally missed taking down the drywall above the garage door, covering the header. Noticed tonight when I went to take measurements for the roof rafters (don't ask). Tore down the drywall to find that the header is made of 2-2x8s, no plywood between, and the one on the interior of the garage has extensive termite damage the entire length of the header.

I believe I've worked out how everything came to pass, and I think I know what I need to do to keep history from repeating itself, but my question is, how big of a deal is it going to be to go to my contractor with this item as well.

Details:
Header 8'6" wide
2-2x8s, no plywood sandwiched

Cape Cod house with only gable storage area above the garage

Please tell me how much I should be crying into my beer?

Ent

 

[mudflap]

Your ok...just make sure the termites are gone. The damage is over a large area, but not structurally a concern . And that looks more like a 2x10. If it makes you feel better just lag bolt another 2x10 to that one. It looks like the radius of the track will allow enough room for 1 more ply between it and the door.

 

[treimers]

I'm not particularly lawsuit-oriented, in fact, have never sued anyone --

BUT -- you said 'lurking for the last couple of months since buying my first house'

I take that to mean you haven't owned the house for long -

I'd be talking to your realtor to get their opinon on whether that termite damage should have been disclosed in the sales agreement.

I'd be seriously pissed if I was a buyer, had a home inspection done, bought the house, and the seller had not disclosed termite damage.

Other folks may have thoughts too, but I would say the bills from your contractor for this repair shouldn't necessarily come out of your pocket...

 

[entrtaner]

Mudflap - Thanks for the kind words...here's hoping the contractor thinks the way you do. I promise those are 2x8s, was up on a ladder measuring everything before posting. I think the trouble is that the 2x8s are resting on a horizontal plate piece of dimensional lumber, giving them the appearance (in my camera phone pic) of being larger than they are. Oh, and the termites are all gone.

Treimers - Owned since May. I know what you're saying and I'm not sure how I want to proceed. Full disclosure: After finding the sill plate damage, I contacted my inspector, got him to come over and look to see what he had missed. He did the right thing, said get estimates to repair, that's why he has insurance. This is where my very large mistake comes in. I tore out almost all of the drywall to research the extent of the damage. The header section is the almost. I have already given him the quotes, signed the waiver, received the check to have the work done. Turns out, it's not going to cover all of the work. I don't want to come back to him, plus legally I doubt I could. As for the seller, that's another story. I have no idea how to proceed with that. Contacted the lawyer who handled the closing and explained when all of this first came up. He said it would probably cost more in legal fees than it's worth and I tend to trust him.

Ent

 

[Average_Joe]

In the pictures it looks like there were termites between the drywall and the header. As long as they didn't get much past the surface and the wood is still solid, you are fine. Beat on the header with a hammer to check it.

 

[entrtaner]

Average_Joe - After reassuring the wife that I wasn't going in there to freak out about the damage (she saw me grab the hammer), I took your advice. I'd say about 1/4 of the 2x8 is still sound, the other 3/4 gives a very soft sound when struck.

 

[Average_Joe]

In that case, I would recommend removing that board and checking the other. If the outer 2x8(10) is sound, just replace the inner one and you will be fine. If they are both bad, your contractor will have to temp brace the opening and replace the entire header. Either way, this is a good opportunity to put a plywood flitch in there to make it a little stronger.

 

[CNGsaves]

Where this at . . . America, Australia, Canada, other??

Has house been treated for termites before?? There evidence of core drilling in concrete around perimeter of house and garage??

Now that termite damage found, the SELLER should be paying for treatment/repair . . AND . . year of follow-up treatment by exterminating company.

 

[entrtaner]

Average_Joe - Like the idea of just replacing the one board, maybe that will work. Good call about the plywood.

CNGsaves - New York, USA

 

[koditten]

Which end of the garage is this door on. If it is the gable, then the header is really overbuilt. I cant tell from the pics, are those the trusses sitting on the top plate? If so then yes it is a supporting header and must be rebuilt in stages. Here's to hoping its just he inside 2 x 8.

As for the work and materials to rebuild that header, that is easy work for a compatant carpenter. You did all the hard stuff by getting rid of the drywall.

Owning a home is always more expensive then you are prepared. If you got some money already, you are doing good. To me, I think you are ahead of the game.

Keep us posted

KO

 

[Anglia Guy]

I'm not particularly lawsuit-oriented, in fact, have never sued anyone --

BUT -- you said 'lurking for the last couple of months since buying my first house'

I take that to mean you haven't owned the house for long -

I'd be talking to your realtor to get their opinon on whether that termite damage should have been disclosed in the sales agreement.

I'd be seriously pissed if I was a buyer, had a home inspection done, bought the house, and the seller had not disclosed termite damage.

Other folks may have thoughts too, but I would say the bills from your contractor for this repair shouldn't necessarily come out of your pocket...

That's right. For termites to have eaten that much, they had to have been there for some time. A normal colony can eat several pounds of wood a year. And if you have only owned this home for a few months, the previous owners are (without a doubt) responsible. You should have had a termite inspection before you bought the home. And the previous owner is responsible for that. And the realtor is responsible for that also. That is a law in every state as far as I know. I would talk to the realtor, an attorney or whoever you have to before paying any money.

 

[jethrodawg]

To everyone that wants to sue a home seller, this is the reason why a buyer is supposed to get all their own inspections (including termites).

Buying a house is not like a car that comes with a bumper to bumper warranty.

It's possible the seller had no idea the wood was damaged by termites. A termite can eat 2x4s and leave little to no trace.

If the inspections did not show termite damage then buyer is going to have uphill battle coming back for more money.

 

[jethrodawg]

That's right. For termites to have eaten that much, they had to have been there for some time. A normal colony can eat several pounds of wood a year. And if you have only owned this home for a few months, the previous owners are (without a doubt) responsible. You should have had a termite inspection before you bought the home. And the previous owner is responsible for that. And the realtor is responsible for that also. That is a law in every state as far as I know. I would talk to the realtor, an attorney or whoever you have to before paying any money.

Wrong. And attorney fees to litigate something like this would exceed the amount to repair it.

Realtor has ZERO liability.

Buyer appears to have had licensed inspections and no damage found. Seller will definitely not be liable. Trust me.

 

[entrtaner]

KO - Sorry for the quality on the pics, found out about this damage last night and didn't have an ability to get better ones at the time. It is not on the gable end, so you are probably correct in the belief that it is a supporting header. The 2x4s above it lead to a top plate and that has 2x6 joists plus the rafters on it. If the carpenter has to jack up the adjacent wall (exterior, non loadbearing) to replace the sill plate, can he just do something similar to this wall? Jack it up a bit to take the load off, cut out the 2x8, work it out, replace with a new one? I do not know the correct names for many parts of the framing of my garage and it's been tough to get a diagram that reflects what I have, so my apologies if I've misnamed anything.

Anglia - I had a WDI (Wood destroying insect) inspection before purchasing. Missed the damage. I've already gone back to the inspector, shown what he missed and had him cut me a check for the repair cost of the damage I had discovered. This damage had not been discovered at that time and in order to receive the check I signed a waiver protecting him from future claims. The fact that I missed the damage is on me, the inspector has been a standup guy about the whole thing. As for the whole issue of the termite damage being disclosed by the seller, I'm in a bit more of a grey area mentally. Looking at the drywall and the insulation in the areas where the damage was, it is possible that the previous owner simply did not know, since it was mostly hidden. The "mostly" is where I get a bit frustrated. Two areas where the damage would have been evident were specifically covered at the time of the inspection. Feels like either the seller or the agent realized what those areas could mean and concealed them. All in all, I tend to agree with Jethro in that I'm pretty much out of luck.

Jethro - I'm on the same page unfortunately. I've got no pipe dreams of going back to the seller and claiming they sold me a lemon. I'm just taking this one on the chin as part of buying a house and not knowing better what to do during inspections. Won't make the same mistakes next time.

Ent

 

[theoldwizard1]

Look at it as an opportunity to install a larger/taller insulate door !

 

[entrtaner]

theoldwizard1 - Depends on whether the garage door needs to be removed in order to replace the header. If it does, I'll probably do as you say and install an insulated door. Larger/taller just won't work...garage is only 11ft wide to start with and the 7ft height is just about as much as would probably work.

 

[nationalminer84]

That's right. For termites to have eaten that much, they had to have been there for some time. A normal colony can eat several pounds of wood a year. And if you have only owned this home for a few months, the previous owners are (without a doubt) responsible. You should have had a termite inspection before you bought the home. And the previous owner is responsible for that. And the realtor is responsible for that also. That is a law in every state as far as I know. I would talk to the realtor, an attorney or whoever you have to before paying any money.

How is the previous owner responsible for the buyer not getting a termite inspection if they HONESTLY didn't know about the damage???? I just went through this on my home. the PO installed a window in 1994 without flashing or Caulking. Result: https://scontent-b-ord.**.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/983856_10200964147963480_919660003_n.jpg Did I even THINK of going after them? NO. I bought It. they didn't know their Dad did that. I took responsibility for the home I BOUGHT and paid for the repairs. The OP went after their inspector. That's the proper thing. He was paid to notice these things. too bad it didn't cover all of it but be thankful you weren't out 17k like I was. I read your last post. Good for you. it's nice to see someone that know what the inspector was responsible for and what they are.

So sick of this sue happy country.

 

[koditten]

To do that job, it looks like the door hardware is in the way. It will have to come out, so you might as well shop for a new door. Its got the old style "widow maker" spring setup. I would want those gone as soon as possible. I had one break when I was a kid. The spring shot thru the door. scared the **** out of me. Not fun.

KO

 

[entrtaner]

nationalminer84 - Thanks for the words and damn! That is some major repair work...how long did it take?

koditten - you saw what I'm seeing here and came to the same conclusion. I grew up with the spring setup as well and didn't realize this was so out of date until I went looking at new doors.

Now here comes the $64,000 (hopefully not) question: I have finally gotten a real idea of what happened in the garage - A wisteria near the garage grew roots that buckled to asphalt. The buckling (plus poor gutter maintenance) caused ponding of water in the corner against the garage door and trim. The trim was apparently not made of PT wood, so it absorbed like a sponge and was in contact with the ground, essentially becoming an all you can eat buffet for termites. Termites came up in the trim, some split along the sillplate and ate that for about 17'. The rest went up the interior trim, and proceeded to work their magic on the header. All of this damage is old, no evidence of current or even recent infestation. I told you that story to ask this: If I have to take down the old door to replace the header, and want to replace the door with a new one, do you think I can wait until spring to get the asphalt buckling repaired? I will be asking my contractor to replace the damaged trim on the sides of the door with PT wood as far up as possible. I'd really like to try and spread the pain out over a longer period of time as opposed to depleted my renovation funds almost down to nothing in one shot. The wisteria is down, the roots are treated with a killer, the gutters and downspout should now keep most water away from the area. Just don't want to buy a new garage door and immediately ruin it by not correcting the underlying problem of the buckling asphalt.

Ent

 

[koditten]

Just ask the contractor for a "rough in" job. That will get the structual repairs done, new sheeting on the outside. The sheeting can handle a winter being exposed.

The asphalt work can wait, the siding can wait. I wouldn't worry about the asphalt, it is not concrete and is something that can be done at any time the weather cooperates. Anyways, most asphalt companies stop in our areas stop around the missle of November.

Just do something to ensure that the water drains away from the structure. In most cases you can do this with a shovel yourself.

KO

 

[entrtaner]

koditten - how big of a deal if I decide I want to take on roughing this in myself? I figure I'd need to prop the wall up to keep the weight off that end, pull off the trim, look for damage, remove damaged sections, fabricate replacement pieces out of PT wood then reattach. Or should I just shut up, sit down and let a pro do it, since if I don't do it right the wall could come down?

 

[koditten]

I wish I could give you an answer. Too many unkowns. How steep is the roof?, how many layers of shingles are on that roof? Is the top plate in good shape? A pro could acess this in 5 minutes.

Depending how small the roof is, I know carpenters that wouldn't even brace this. They would build the new header so it is slightly smaller than the existing one, cut out all the spikes on the old header with a recipricating saw, remove the old header and install the new one. I'm assuming this is an 8' door.

Just for piece of mind, a pro would be who I would call for the header replacement. All the other stuff you could do yourself.

There is lots of stuff you can do to make the job cheaper. Get the door and hardware out of the way, pull off the siding, work on your drainage. Thats all stuff you can do. Look at it this way. You will pay a quality carpenter 70 bucks an hour to shovel dirt as well as building a header. I'd rather have him build the header for that money.

Whatever you do, make sure you agree on what needs to be done and get it in writing. You don't need any more headaches.

KO

 

[mudflap]

I think we are making a big deal out of nothing here....I dont think (judging from what can be seen in the pics) that the header needs to be replaced. But even if it does, what are we talking about....2 - 2x8x10..$40.... If you want to rebuild the garage...good excuse to make it bigger...LOL

 

[koditten]

Good point.

I hate hijacking threads, but if this was my garage, it would drive me nuts. I have the skills to brace this or access that bracing would be a waste of time, so i would just change it. We don't know the OP skill set, so we need to be a bit more long winded in our responses.

I'm sure, just in the 2 pages of post the OP has learned quite a bit about homeownership and construction practices. I would think the free info would be welcome. I know I didn't mind sharing what I know.

So in short, if any of us came away with even a small bit of info, the thread was worth it.

Man! I wish I had the internet when I first started working on my own ****.

These are the threads I like the most.

KO

 

[mudflap]

Good point.

I hate hijacking threads, but if this was my garage, it would drive me nuts. I have the skills to brace this or access that bracing would be a waste of time, so i would just change it. We don't know the OP skill set, so we need to be a bit more long winded in our responses.

I'm sure, just in the 2 pages of post the OP has learned quite a bit about homeownership and construction practices. I would think the free info would be welcome. I know I didn't mind sharing what I know.

So in short, if any of us came away with even a small bit of info, the thread was worth it.

Man! I wish I had the internet when I first started working on my own ****.

These are the threads I like the most.

KO

True.....Wasnt thinking about it like that..

 

[1320stang]

I just ran into the same thing on a house I was replacing two doors with a single door. Both the king and jack studs were ate up. The inner header 2x10 on one side you could crush with your hand. You likely need to replace the header(s). A 3 1/2"x12"x18'9" header from HD was $260ish.

 

[Garage Dog]

koditten - how big of a deal if I decide I want to take on roughing this in myself? I figure I'd need to prop the wall up to keep the weight off that end, pull off the trim, look for damage, remove damaged sections, fabricate replacement pieces out of PT wood then reattach. Or should I just shut up, sit down and let a pro do it, since if I don't do it right the wall could come down?

My reading this, my first thought was; "well if he doesn't understand how big a deal roughing it in is, then he shouldn't be doing it".

But we all started learning somewhere and in the scheme of things (construction wise) replacing the header, really is a straight forward project.

If you have the desire, the time, and some skills; this is doable.

As others point out, we don't know your skill set, we don't know what you have for tools, etc, etc.

Thirty or forty years ago I did things I had no business tackling. But necessity gave me few options, so I learned and you can too...otherwise write the check and be done.

Good Luck!

 

[treimers]

. The OP went after their inspector. That's the proper thing. He was paid to notice these things. too bad it didn't cover all of it but be thankful you weren't out 17k like I was. I read your last post. Good for you. it's nice to see someone that know what the inspector was responsible for and what they are.

So sick of this sue happy country.

Its not about the suing, it is about the need these days to force people to stand up and take ownership of things their fathers and grandfathers would never have even thought of not taking full responsible for.

The OP had a good experience, but an even more honest inspector would have rechecked for other missed damage for free, and would have put an exclusion on that no-more-claims paperwork to cover for the potential discovery of more hidden damage on the front of the garage.

 

[entrtaner]

koditten, mudflap & garagedog - thanks for the good words and for making the thread useful to me. I've learned alot in this thread and from many of the other ones here on the forum, that's the reason I keep coming back and searching. I'm fairly handy, good for wiring, good for basic plumbing, good for basic construction. Most of my experience comes from building theatrical sets though, so my real world construction experience is very low. I'm a quick study though and that's a point in my favor. Basic power and hand tools are close at hand, most in decent condition.

1320stang - were you there as a contractor or was this on your own house?

treimers - I understand what you're saying about people standing up and taking responsibility, and in this case it's hard to say where blame is to be laid. The damage is quite old, this fact is agreed on by everyone, including the exterminators who came to give quotes on the work. The drywall that was covering the damage was also quite old (dating from scraps in the walls and style of insulation). So the person who sold me the house may not have even known there was an issue. No way for me to know.

I am standing by my experience with my home inspector...he, like most home inspectors, has a clause in his contract that limits his liability to the fee paid to him. Of course gross negligence will probably get past that clause if we ended up in small claims court, but my point is this: When I approached him about the issue and showed him the damage he missed, he did not fall back on that clause. His first response was to take responsibility and say, "I will put it through my insurance, that's why we have it." I don't doubt that the no more claims paperwork was direct from his insurance and as such, they are limiting the ability for a further claim. This was handled in the best manner I could hope for at the time, and the fact that I missed a spot when taking down drywall puts the onus on me, not him. I was in a hurry to get things settled and thought I was all set. My screwup in not giving him a quote including this area is exactly that, my screwup.

I'm past the pointing fingers phase, I'm at the, lets get this fixed and move on to actually working on things I want, not have to remodel.

Anyone with further info on the process of removing the trim from both sides of the garage door and replacing it with PT wood, please feel free to comment and post pics if you've got them...more information to get a better handle on the work in front of me (or the contractor)

Ent

 

[sxk122]

I don't have anything constructive to add, but I'd just like to shake your hand.

I get tired of everyone wanting to sue someone else, and never pausing a moment to be reasonable.

It's a shame more people can't act like you are. I hope (and I have a feeling it will) everything works out well for you.

 

[entrtaner]

sxk122 - thanks, here's hoping you're right!

The more I read on this forum and other sites on the web, the more I realize that this project is beyond my reach. I already have a guy coming in to do the sill plate and redrywall the garage. May take the money alotted to the drywalling and apply it to having him fix this properly. I know that to do the job properly we will need to take the garage door down, any thoughts on how durable old tracking tends to be? In essence, once this stuff comes down, can I put it back up? Or am I just better off finding the money to buy a new door all together? And am I now entering into the world of needing to get a SE in and getting a permit?

Ent

 

[1320stang]

I was there helping a lady from church. I've built a couple dozen houses, from custom adobe to stick built frame jobs. I've done the "take out the center post of a two car garage" a couple times.

Yours is easy, you build a stud wall a couple feet inside the door using the ceiling joists to support the opening. If you create a header to sit under them you won't need as many studs, but if you just use a top plate, you'll need a stud under every joist.

On her house, the joists were parallel to the doors, and it was a hip roof, so I supported it from the tails of the rafters at the outside edge of the soffit. I had to custom order a 17' door, it was about $200 more than a 16' door and it won't be in until the middle of next week? or maybe the week after. I'm not putting the door in, only prepping the opening.

 

[entrtaner]

1320stang - thanks for the info. From the sounds of it, whether I'm doing it or the contractor is, we're going to need a studwall to support those joists, and that means the garage door track and other pieces will probably be coming down to make access work. I actually need to put more ceiling joists in as well...really poor job on the ceiling here. 2x6x20s 30" OC...basically only has half the amount of joists it should and the span is far greater than it should be given the size of the lumber. I'm going to end up putting in several 2x8s across the center of the garage with studs on either side to transfer weight down to the sill plate, then put in blocks to get up to the right height to provide support at about the halfway point for the joists. There's already 1 2x8 in place, so I'm adding to that. One good thing for today is I received a decent bid for the asphalt work I need done to stop the ponding. Came in at about a third of what I was thinking.

Ent

 

[ironmutt]

sorry about the repairs but when read the title of the post my first thought was why would anybody put wood headers on their race car

 

[entrtaner]

ironmutt - awesome... thanks for the laugh!

 

[Kevin54]

koditten - how big of a deal if I decide I want to take on roughing this in myself? I figure I'd need to prop the wall up to keep the weight off that end, pull off the trim, look for damage, remove damaged sections, fabricate replacement pieces out of PT wood then reattach. Or should I just shut up, sit down and let a pro do it, since if I don't do it right the wall could come down?

There's no reason you can't do it yourself and save the money. You could rough it in, you could do all the finish work if you wanted and just have someone hang the door for you. Go to Lowes, Home Depot, TSC, and look through the Garage building books and remodeling book. The garage building books will show you how you need to frame things out, the remodeling books will show you how to brace things up. If you have a local library, spend a few afternoon hours in there. They're a wealth of info. Your biggest thing is a supporting wall and whether you need one or not.

Post a pic up from outside and also showing your header from a little further away. If your trusses run side to sad, then a supporting wall would not have to be heavy duty. If your trusses or rafters run front to back, then you may need a little heavier braced temporary wall to support your trusses while you R&R your old front wall.

You also want to go along with an ice pick and start checking along the bottom sill plate and along the bottom of all of your studs if exposed. Termites DO NOT like light. They will build a small mud tunnel up the outside of a foundation if they can find a dark entrance on the inside. They can hollow out a 2x4 with tunnels and you'll never know there was anything wrong with the wood. They'll leave a paper thick covering on the complete outside. A sharp screwdriver or an ice pick will easily go through the weaker wood.

 

[entrtaner]

Kevin54 - Thanks for the suggestions all around. Good call on going and looking at both the garage building and remodeling books. I will take some pictures to give a better idea of the scope of the work, once I get home this afternoon. I have gone around and checked most of the studs, either with a screwdriver (used in place of the icepick) or a hammer up higher to listen for hollowness.

My contractor agreed to stop by tomorrow morning to get an idea of what we'd be needing done. He was originally supposed to be replacing 18' of sill plate, sistering some 2x4s and drywalling the entire garage. May change from drywalling the entire to just drywalling the walls that are shared with the interior and putting the price difference towards the newly found damage getting repaired. Just didn't want him to come out thinking one thing and bearing a full load of drywall, when we're gonna need more lumber than originally thought and less drywall.

Ent

 

[Anglia Guy]

Wrong. And attorney fees to litigate something like this would exceed the amount to repair it.

Realtor has ZERO liability.

Buyer appears to have had licensed inspections and no damage found. Seller will definitely not be liable. Trust me.

Everything you said is 180 degrees from the law in my state. And most other states too. The realtor is responsible for having a termite inspection done. And the law says that the previous buyer is responsible for termite damage (among other things like cracked, leaky foundations that were proven to have been there before the sale) for two years after they sell the house. My next door neighbor just won a lawsuit over this last year.

 

[kenfath]

Was there a separate termite inspection at time of sale?
Have the termites been exterminated? If so, how?

 

[entrtaner]

Anglia Guy - Amazing how the laws differ from state to state. Awesome for your neighbor that he managed to get money to fix his issues!

ken fath - yes, there was a separate termite inspection, it missed the original damage that we spotted. The further damage was hidden behind drywall. I have already settled with the home inspector with regards to his missing the damage. Now I'm dealing with the damage I missed.