TERRALink Geothermal

[D-Cal]

Anybody have any experience with this DIY geothermal kit?

http://www.arit.com/geothermal.htm

Be sure to read the Design PDF file top to bottom, it has a lot of excellent info in it.

Sounds very well put together, and I'm more than capable of installing one myself. I've seen a blurb on one site that it can be 40% cheaper than a professionally installed system.

They don't seem to offer anything for vertical (drilled) installations, but I live on an acreage with plenty of space for horizontal.

 

[PAToyota]

Hmmm... Have to take a look at that when I have more time. Do you bury the ground loops or drill wells or???

 

[D-Cal]

This system seems to be burial only. You can dig several narrow trenches, or fewer wider ones and use the "slinky" hose. The slinky option is for tighter areas. Most other geothermals also can use a drilled well, but that doesn't sound too DIY friendly. We have lots of land fortunately (4.25 acres).

 

[Vetter]

I have a Waterfurnace I heat my home with, basically the same geothermal technology as that, it runs off the well. I have no fuel bills, and the most my electric bill has ever been in a month is $150 and I live in Michigan, and everything I have is electric. I love it, and if I moved, would get another one.

 

[D-Cal]

From every angle I've looked at, geothermal makes more sense than anything else. If I was building a new home, I'd have to be crazy not to install it (and we live in the most northerly major city in North America).

It costs less over the long run, the equipment lasts longer, it's far simpler stuff, it's better for the environment, A/C comes free (we wouldn't normally pay for that around here), completely removes the chance of carbon-monoxide poising (when replacing all gas appliances)... why would you install anything else?

Plus, once the base system is installed, you can do crazy stuff like heat your driveway all winter. Why not? Couple bucks of electricty and you don't have to shovel or keep a snowblower?

The biggest barriers are the equipment cost and people not trusting or understanding the technology. I've spoken to half a dozen people now who have installed these systems in a Canadian climate and they work exactly as promised - no snake oil here.

For me personally, it's tough to come up with that much money for the initial costs... which is why I was interested in a DIY kit. $8-9K is far more palatable than the $15-25K that a professionally installed kit costs.

 

[carguy123]

Well the reason for people NOT using geothermal is the up front cost!

I am building a house and really wanted geothermal. After talking to everyone I finally got the cost down from $80,000 to $60,000+ a little. This is for 10 tons.

But I installed a high efficiency conventional system for $18,000. There is just no way to justify the difference!

I even had the set up to be able to use an open loop instead of having to drill well fields ($1,500 per ton), or do horizontal loops (which are not suggested this far south).

 

[D-Cal]

10 tons is friggen MASSIVE. How big is your house?!? Most average sized houses only require 3-5 tons.

 

[PAToyota]

I am building a house and really wanted geothermal. After talking to everyone I finally got the cost down from $80,000 to $60,000+ a little. This is for 10 tons.

But I installed a high efficiency conventional system for $18,000. There is just no way to justify the difference!

I even had the set up to be able to use an open loop instead of having to drill well fields ($1,500 per ton), or do horizontal loops (which are not suggested this far south).

Ok, so the loops are $15K for ten and probably similar cost for the heat pump as the conventional - $20K - where does the extra $25K to $45K come in for geothermal?

Plus, for 10 tons what is your energy bill going to be over the next ten years compared to that of a geothermal system? I agree with D-Cal - 10 tons for a residence is freaking huge!

 

[carguy123]

The house is only 5400 sq feet.

I have been unable to work the math to come up to 60-80k either. I expected about 10k more than a conventional system and while I wouldn't have liked it I would have paid it.

 

[D-Cal]

ONLY?!? That's a friggen mansion! You must pay some hefty gas/AC bills in comparison to my 2000 sq ft house.

These systems generally pay themselves back in 3-10 years in savings on gas bills, but also on the removal of "surcharges" the gas company likes to slap on if you completely eliminate the gas service.

The math you should have been doing would have included projected fuel costs for the next ten years and the elimination of service costs. You might find it was a bargain then.

It's also possible you just have rip-off artists operating in your area. Hard for anyone but you to say.

 

[Bib Overalls]

We have a Hydro-Temp http://www.hydro-temp.com unit in our 2,300 square foot home. We are very satisfied.

 

[D-Cal]

Thanks for the link. They have some case studies that are interesting and informative. One 10000 sq ft building was using an 8 ton unit. Another 3650 sq ft house in Arkansas was using 4 tons.

http://www.hydro-temp.com/Studies/index.htm

 

[kbs2244]

In a new construction situation, has anyone heard anything pro or con with the idea of putting the pipes in the same trenchs as the spetic system?
And if you did it that way, should the pipes be above or below the septic pipes?
I am thinking that below would put them in damp dirt for better heat transfer and protect them from damage if any septic repair had to be done.

 

[fefarms]

Ground source heat exchange piping is generally at least 5 feet below the surface, more is better. Septic leach fields are usually no more than 3 feet down, to keep them out of seasonal high ground water and to keep them in the region of soil most biologically active.

Septic leach fields usually have to be constructed on undisturbed soil. Your health department or other regulatory agency probably would not buy off on shared trenches of the sort you propose. Furthermore, it is difficult to fully compact the backfill on ground source piping, because the trenches are deep and the pipe somewhat fragile. The resulting settlement and uneven grade shift would really mess up the +/- 1 inch of level tolerances usually required for individual leach lines.

Effluent treatment is partly a biological process which would get thrown off by significant temperature swings from the ground loops. In sufficiently cold climates, it is possible for the soil to freeze around the ground source piping, which would be disastrous for a leach field.

 

[carguy123]

ONLY?!? That's a friggen mansion! You must pay some hefty gas/AC bills in comparison to my 2000 sq ft house.

It's also possible you just have rip-off artists operating in your area. Hard for anyone but you to say.

What can I say, we are downsizing upwards. Coincidentally that's the latest trend. We needed room for the kids to come back with their kids &/or spouses and friends. Since everyone is much bigger than when they lived at home we need more room.

We were going to use gas for our heating which is still substantially cheaper than geothermal heat pump so we wouldn't have a surcharge even if they charged one in our area. It is our call whether to hook up to gas and we have no surcharges if we don't. Now water is another thing entirely. They charge us $20 not to hook to them.

As far as rip off artists, that just seems to be the price down here. Geothermal isn't that popular so you don't have many companies to choose from.

I found the same thing when I shopped for SIP panels or ICF construction techniques. $80,000 premium for either of them over conventional construction with a foam envelope.

 

[D-Cal]

What can I say, we are downsizing upwards. Coincidentally that's the latest trend. We needed room for the kids to come back with their kids &/or spouses and friends. Since everyone is much bigger than when they lived at home we need more room..

With that big a house, you must be a good catholic.

We were going to use gas for our heating which is still substantially cheaper than geothermal heat pump so we wouldn't have a surcharge even if they charged one in our area. It is our call whether to hook up to gas and we have no surcharges if we don't. Now water is another thing entirely. They charge us $20 not to hook to them.

The charges I was referring to are the charges over and above the energy used. They like to call them "infrastructure maintenance charges" and "delivery charges". They always seem to slip a couple in on every bill, and they change the names frequently.

As far as rip off artists, that just seems to be the price down here. Geothermal isn't that popular so you don't have many companies to choose from.

I found the same thing when I shopped for SIP panels or ICF construction techniques. $80,000 premium for either of them over conventional construction with a foam envelope.

Honestly, it sounds like they were just blowing you off. 10 tons seems to be rediculous for a 5600 sq ft house when a 10000 sq ft place can use 8. I think if you'd found someone who really believed in the system you'd have found a much better number. Like I said in my earlier post, one of the main barriers is lack of understanding the technology - and that includes the installers.

I'm going through a similar thing - I'm having a hard time finding someone locally who is a good installer of tankless heaters because nobody believes in them. They only see the high initial cost, so they over price them and try to talk you out of installing one.

 

[carguy123]

There is a geothermal thinktank at SMU and one at a university in Oklahoma. I went to both to find installers.

I did the heat loads on the house myself and came up with 8.5 tons so I just figured that I had missed something.

I had bids and talked to 8 different geothermal companies and didn't find nearly as big a variance in equipment or costs as I did with conventional companies.

 

[D-Cal]

Dunno what to tell you bud, your experience is pretty atypical.

 

[carguy123]

I think it is area dependent since we don't have that great a need and have many options

 

[tomroblee]

I'm not that familiar with the Arit product, but did considerable research before building my retirement house about two years ago. I also have a cousin who has used a ground source heat pump for about 15 years and has been very happy with the performance.

A water source heat pump should have the same approximate cost as an air source heat pump--if the cost of the tubing, antifreeze, and installation of the tubing is ignored. (The air source heat pump uses an electric fan to move air while the water source heat pump uses a small electric pump. The pump should be a little more expensive, but not thousands of dollars more.)

In a typical residential size set-up the cost of the tubing and antifreeze to fill the tubing should be no more than a few hundred dollars. The remainder of the cost difference should be the cost of burying the tubing and profit margin. My retirement house has a 10 acre pond within 100 feet of the house, so my thought was to trench to the edge of the pond and sink the tubing in the pond. In my rural area, the cost of this shouldn't have been more than a few hundred dollars.

When I got quotes, the installed price of a water source heat pump was $8000 to $12,000 higher than the cost of an air source heat pump. When questioned about the apparent price difference, the water source heat pump contractors explained that market forces allowed them a much larger profit margin. (There is virtually no competition). For that reason, I eventualy installed two air-to-air heat pumps. (Separate heating systems for the first and second floors solved some tricky problems on the location of duct work as well as providing a "back-up" system if one unit broke.)

The house is all electric in SW Indiana with about 2300 sq. ft. of heated living area. I'm only at the house on weekends, but leave the heat at 60 when I am gone. In nearly two years I haven't had an electric bill over $100 per month. My minimum bill is over $40 ($20 charge from the REMC for being connected plus the use of 4 dusk-to-dawn security lights, plus electric water heater, etc.) Based on this, I would guess that the electric cost for my heating is about $300 per year- give or take. It may double when I retire and keep the heat at 72 degrees. How many years would it take "save" the extra $10,000 cost of a water source heat pump?

A good friend heating contractor told me that water source heat pumps are the perfect choice for folk who want to save money--no matter how much extra it costs them. His advice was to spend the extra dollars on more and better insulation, more energy efficient windows, etc. Reducing the need for heating and cooling is generally cheaper than buying high efficiency heating and cooling equipment which will need to be replaced several times over the life of the house. I took his advice, and have been very happy.

 

[D-Cal]

You're making one huge assumption: that energy costs are going to stay the same forever. They won't. In the last couple of years alone the price of NG has doubled. What will it be in 5 years?

The heating demands on your weekend house are far far less than a real lived in house in northern Canada. Winter in Edmonton in particular is about 5-6 months long. Air to air heat pumps wouldn't cut it here at all. It's not uncommon to save $2000 a year after converting to GSHP here, so to answer your question, if you lived here, 5 years.

 

[PAToyota]

x2 on energy costs. My father looked at geothermal about five years ago. At the time the HVAC guy talked him out of it (despite my suggestions) because it would have taken him twelve years to recoup his expenses in cost savings. Well, energy costs have more than doubled since then so he would already be looking at the end of the payback period by now...

 

[vrrmm]

Hey Guys

I just noticed this thread

A major part of my business is geothermal heating.

I don't use the brand you are talking about I use freon based systems. Electric costs to run are less so faster payback time.

First let's talk about efficiency Oil is about 84%, Gas 90%, electric 100% and geothermal is 400%

How can that be the compressor is just pumping freon the heat of the earth is doing the heating.

What size equiptment do you need? do a manual J it's a computor program that will spec your equiptment, an engineer will do it for about $200.

Does it work? i started a house the other day 17 degrees outside and the freon going into the airhandler was 147 degrees. I was heating the house with just 1 of 2 units.

I get 2 calls a day just for new houses in the last 6 months my company has doubled in size and will again in the next 6 months.

 

[Kent in KC]

Check with your A/C vendor or local utility or elec coop to get a heating/cooling loading calculation done. Mine was free and proved that my 3700 sq ft house only needed a 2.65 ton AC, saving me money up front and down the road. You do not want an oversized A/C, they cycle on and off and that's what eats up the elec bill. While we at it, you should also pay attention to the compass orientation, glass distribution, overhangs, etc. as well as insulation. These days you can't build a house without thinking wholistically about the sun, wind, earth and energy.

 

[Flathead Youngin']

did they go out of business?

i'm very interested in any other DIY geothermal information.....

bttt

Anybody have any experience with this DIY geothermal kit?

http://www.arit.com/geothermal.htm

Be sure to read the Design PDF file top to bottom, it has a lot of excellent info in it.

Sounds very well put together, and I'm more than capable of installing one myself. I've seen a blurb on one site that it can be 40% cheaper than a professionally installed system.

They don't seem to offer anything for vertical (drilled) installations, but I live on an acreage with plenty of space for horizontal.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

I have been doing research on Geothermal recently, with a simple yahoo search here is where they are now.

http://www.geothermaldiy.com/index.html

I'm not going to spend $1000/month in fuel oil next winter.

Keith

 

[Flathead Youngin']

you gonna giver her a go, yourself?

i can send you some links i've found...

I have been doing research on Geothermal recently, with a simple yahoo search here is where they are now.

http://www.geothermaldiy.com/index.html

I'm not going to spend $1000/month in fuel oil next winter.

Keith

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Sure thinking hard about it, I have a buddy that does HVAC so he could hook it up to the existing ductwork. And I have access to a backhoe, the tricky part is knowing how large a unit and how much tubing into the ground.

Send me the links if you have them.

Some guys have told me that size can restrict how large a house you heat with geothermal. But I've seen reference to very large buildings both residential and commercial that have it. It is all a function of the amount of tubing (thermal exchange) and condenser the unit feeds if I remember my thermal stuff from school correctly.

 

[Dragster Racer]

My wife works with a woman who decided on geothermal for their new house which is I would guess 3,000 sq ft. House was done in spring, and when they got into air con weather, the geo thermal wasn't really contributing. The contractor said that the ground had been distrurbed, and had to equalize temperature wise, so it might be a season before real contributions begin. Electicity is expensive here, so they were anxious to get results from their large investment. We are at the end of thier second winter, and they have been very dissapointed. Savings has just not been there. Talked to the contractor, and he said that they could increase the capacity of the system, and it would only cost an additional $30,000. They declined. Not much geothermal going on here right now except for public buildings. I hold hope for alternative energy sources, but the initial cost is going to really have to come down before payback periods start to make sense IMO. Solar and wind both seem to be this way too. I think my wife's coworker got a bad job done, but it sure is discouraging.

 

[RPH]

A couple of differnt sites to check for alternative energy.
http://geoheat.oit.edu/pdf/pdfindex.htm
http://www.nrel.gov/buildings/energy_analysis.html

 

[PAToyota]

My wife works with a woman who decided on geothermal for their new house which is I would guess 3,000 sq ft.

[snip]

I think my wife's coworker got a bad job done, but it sure is discouraging.

I'd be curious as to your location and what system was put in - ground loop, wells, etc. I've done a few commercial projects and have first-hand experience with a couple residential systems. All have performed well above average.

One issue is that as people jump on the bandwagon, there are companies out there without the proper experience and systems - in short, outright scams. Unfortunately, the bad eggs can cause a lot of problems - just like the 5.7L GM diesel pretty much killed automotive diesels in the US for decades...

 

[scottytohottyman]

Have been lurking around for a while just taking it all in...Great site!
We are building new home in northeast Ohio about 4500 sq ft & I spent a lot of time searching for info about geo.I found no negative feedback other than initial costs. I did end up going with geo for mostly long term financial & some environmental reasons. Went with a total package which included...5 ton Water furnace, blown in celulose insulation,complete ducting,central humidifier, 2 zones,2 thermostats & 2 solar attic power vents. for a total cost of $37,000. If heat/cool loads are correct I should start reaping rewards in 5-7 years & that is if natural gas prices stayed the same which we all know most likley will not happen. Hopfully we have spent our money wisley.
I will be posting with barn plans soon.
Scott

 

[Dragster Racer]

Northern Illinois with a loop. I think the contractor was the problem in her case. It is important that they are trained and know what they are doing.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Anyone ever done or seen a Direct Exchange Geothermal system. They don't use water and an heat exchanger they use a refrigerant and circulate it through the field directly.

http://www.ecrtech.com/content/

Looks simpler and more efficient.

 

[WVBrady]

... House was done in spring, and when they got into air con weather, the geo thermal wasn't really contributing. The contractor said that the ground had been distrurbed, and had to equalize temperature wise, so it might be a season before real contributions begin...

I was talking to a fellow who had been a salesman for HVAC for 17 years. He said his brother (somewhere in Ohio) had a trench type system installed and it took 2 years for the costs to go down. I thought that it was due to the soil not making good contact with the piping, but maybe the thermal stabilization of the disturbed ground might have been part of it also. He said his brother is now very satisfied with his electric bill. He still thought that the drilled well system was better in most cases.

 

[russlaferrera]

From what I have been told. One of the biggest problems is having the soil compacted against the underground piping. The less contact the less efficiency.

 

[Flathead Youngin']

i think that's why a lot of installers are going to a "grouting" material.........helps the heat transfer

From what I have been told. One of the biggest problems is having the soil compacted against the underground piping. The less contact the less efficiency.