The Chinese Do It Again...

[ADSR]

Thats not a catch, thats basic econ 101

Oh it's a catch. Because they'd use it and sell the product whether I sold them the design or not. So you might as well get your costs back on the first order.

I'm just small peanuts. When cummins, cat or detroit keep the design, they still copy it without fear.

 

[dogdog]

It's Fake News man fake news.

 

[Mr_B]

At that price difference I would buy the Astro. won't be long before they flood market with them.
About china got some comeback for all the copying they do and selling junk via likes of eBay without proper safety certs or paying proper taxes when shipping small items. Amazon and especially Ebay needs slapping for allowing an illegal trading platform ...

 

[Stuey]

Fair enough, almost certain it was an Astro design due to how much Chris (Astro Pneumatic on this board) has talked about designing it



EDIT: On second look, Tien Chien enterprises has 5-10 employees.

You sure they are the manufacturer?

Chris has talked a lot of the design of this, which lead me to believe it was one of Astro's designs (as Astro makes plenty of other tools, in addition to what they rebrand). Astro also owns some of their own factories.

Tien Chien doesn't seem any more likely with only a few employees.
https://autotool.en.alibaba.com/company_profile.html?spm=a2700.8304367.0.0.nCytqg

Thanks! I must have missed that thread.

 

[ADSR]

At that price difference I would buy the Astro. won't be long before they flood market with them.
About china got some comeback for all the copying they do and selling junk via likes of eBay without proper safety certs or paying proper taxes when shipping small items. Amazon and especially Ebay needs slapping for allowing an illegal trading platform ...

Email alibaba and ask to by a "sample". I bet that light shipped is under 15 bucks.

 

[ADSR]

It's Fake News man fake news.

make commerce great again.

 

[Dr Stan]

make commerce great again.

Love it.

BTW, here's a good site to explore: http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html

 

[GasNSteering]

All you young kids....

I remember when the ***** was the cheap Japanese stuff...."Made in Japan" was the joke.

Then it was the "Made in Taiwan" joke....

The it was "Made in Korea"....when you were shopping for VCR's, you wanted the "Made in Japan" one, not the "Made in Korea" one....

Now the joke is "Made in China"

In a few more years, the joke will be "Made in India"

Yeah when I was growing up we used "Made in Japan" to describe cheap junk.

 

[ddawg16]

Yeah when I was growing up we used "Made in Japan" to describe cheap junk.

So....you're an old fart like me?

 

[Skin]

Saying 'Japan was known for junk too' is a vast oversimplification and not entirely comparable. Whats China known for other than dirt cheap labor? Japan has put out world class products for decades. Even not long after being obliterated (WWII), during the Korean war, Canon and Nikon were regarded as amongst the top optic/imaging manufacturers in the world. The 70s-80s saw the rise and rapid expansion of the Japanese automobile in NA (including US plants and jobs). There is also a rather large contribution to highly regarded electronics during a similar time frame.

China has had a massive impact on the world economy for the better part of 30 years, mostly aiding in greatly expanding a throw-away society with a large dose of overconsumption, and has grown substantially themselves, yet here we are many years later and I still struggle to think of anything China is world class in other than being the place everyone goes to make stuff cheap, buy knock-offs, or make things that result in copious amounts of pollution. They simply don't innovate and seem to be content with that. Places like Taiwan and S. Korea mirror a later 20th century Japan far better than China.

 

[Mr_B]

^
+1 on those view points .

 

[katiexoxo]

@Skin: China makes many of the highest class products. For example flashlights. And many of the electronics. I heard they make the best violins too

 

[Mechanical Noise]

OK, I missed the conclusive part that the light is a ripped off design or a blatant copy. They can't be from the same Chinese supplier who has a legitimate right to make their products for different brands, like Western Forge makes the same adjustable wrench for Proto and Craftsman?

 

[Astro_Pneumatic_Tools]

They can't be from the same Chinese supplier who has a legitimate right to make their products for different brands, like Western Forge makes the same adjustable wrench for Proto and Craftsman?

No, not in this case. Primarily because ours is wholly made in Taiwan (including the PCB). You're also getting our legitimate UL approved wall charger, and we only use 18650 lithium cells from UL listed top 3 in the world battery manufacturers. We also do our own lumen output testing to advertise real numbers.

The OP's link even has a video "review" that they cut from EricTheCarGuy's youtube video on our light to make it appear to be about their light.

I mean, I almost admire how blatant they are.
Knock off products (especially on Amazon lately) are not all that rare. If people want to cross their fingers and pull the trigger, god bless em. If we spent our time talking people out of that and explaining differences between designs, factories, certifications, testing, product liability insurance ect we wouldn't have any time to work on new stuff which is what we prefer to focus on.

 

[dogdog]

Yeah when I was growing up we used "Made in Japan" to describe cheap junk.

LOL, not to go off topic. you don't have to be that old to remember that. Iif you dig deeper , even the US at one point in time have made inferior products....

..... and a slur of news on product dumping tactic to beat it's US competitions.... any one still remember Fisher Price/ RCA , Zenith They are dead Jim dead, didn't get killed by the Chinese for sure. something recent.

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/08/14/business/us-takes-new-tack-on-japanese-dumping.html

and notice this still the same old game, different faces (SSDD)....but guess China learned the lesson at the expense of US and stopped it early.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-steel-trade-japan-idUSKCN1050GH

as far as OP....I think with evident of so many reputable manufacture with the same light, I don't think Astro invented or patterned this light but probably "licensed" from some one, the same way as other.... No one knows nt... these are things of trade. So before I go screaming rip-off.... I would try to get the story straight first.

 

[dogdog]

No, not in this case. Primarily because ours is wholly made in Taiwan (including the PCB). You're also getting our legitimate UL approved wall charger, and we only use 18650 lithium cells from UL listed top 3 in the world battery manufacturers. We also do our own lumen output testing to advertise real numbers.

The OP's link even has a video "review" that they cut from EricTheCarGuy's youtube video on our light to make it appear to be about their light.

I mean, I almost admire how blatant they are.
Knock off products (especially on Amazon lately) are not all that rare. If people want to cross their fingers and pull the trigger, god bless em. If we spent our time talking people out of that and explaining differences between designs, factories, certifications, testing, product liability insurance ect we wouldn't have any time to work on new stuff which is what we prefer to focus on.

Can't you file a complain with Amazon ?

 

[Astro_Pneumatic_Tools]

Can't you file a complain with Amazon ?

We have in the past to little effect.
These "ships from China" outfits pop up and go away multiple times. Even if their account is suspended, you'll see the same product again under a new company name within a month or so. Amazon's not "our" market place anyways - we sell bulk in truck loads to tool warehouses and tool trucks primarily.

I suspect we sell more of these than perhaps every other brand combined, so I'm not worried. Especially on lights, we're already onto the next thing, and the next next thing - that if these then do well will also eventually have knock-offs.

 

[jd_1138]

All you young kids....

I remember when the ***** was the cheap Japanese stuff...."Made in Japan" was the joke.

Then it was the "Made in Taiwan" joke....

The it was "Made in Korea"....when you were shopping for VCR's, you wanted the "Made in Japan" one, not the "Made in Korea" one....

Now the joke is "Made in China"

In a few more years, the joke will be "Made in India"

Samsung and LG are both respected Korean brands now. I think LG used to be Goldstar.

I remember my mother divorced her 2nd husband and got her own apartment, and she had a Goldstar TV, VCR, and a stereo. It was pretty crappy stuff at the time in 1990.

 

[jd_1138]

No, not in this case. Primarily because ours is wholly made in Taiwan (including the PCB). You're also getting our legitimate UL approved wall charger, and we only use 18650 lithium cells from UL listed top 3 in the world battery manufacturers. We also do our own lumen output testing to advertise real numbers.

The OP's link even has a video "review" that they cut from EricTheCarGuy's youtube video on our light to make it appear to be about their light.

I mean, I almost admire how blatant they are.
Knock off products (especially on Amazon lately) are not all that rare. If people want to cross their fingers and pull the trigger, god bless em. If we spent our time talking people out of that and explaining differences between designs, factories, certifications, testing, product liability insurance ect we wouldn't have any time to work on new stuff which is what we prefer to focus on.

Yeah a lot of people just assume because it looks the same, it IS the same, which is not true at all.

Name brand co's spec out the quality of their products and have QA. Even if the factory produces similar products and makes them for other brands/knockoffs, the items are not the same quality.

 

[Astro_Pneumatic_Tools]

Yeah a lot of people just assume because it looks the same, it IS the same, which is not true at all.

Name brand co's spec out the quality of their products and have QA. Even if the factory produces similar products and makes them for other brands/knockoffs, the items are not the same quality.

You'll find this is especially true on high liability products (lifting/hydraulic, lithium battery powered anything, cutting tools ect). There will often even be clauses on contracts or PO's about using separate manufacturing and assembly lines specific to the brand.

 

[6PTsocket]

I will take AP at their word but I have heard the same thing from Eastwood when somebody points out that a similar product is available at a much cheaper price. I got it from the local SK dealer, a number of years ago, that tried to tell me that their version of the Danaher torque wrench was made to higher specs. I acutually called JS engineering, the Danaher division thst made those wrenches and the nice lady recited a long list of brands they made it for and said they were all the same quality, with variations on metal or plastic handle. Some claims may have some validity and a lot of it is advertising. I tend to look at it with a jaundiced eye. There is often some minor difference to back the claim of exclusivity but it not always something that is very important.
My mom was, in the toy import business. At a trade show, another importer complained he was promised exclusive rights to a toy sailboat but found his competitor had the same boat. He called the manufacturer and was told that his boat had his name on the ones he got and his competitor got his name on his boats....exclusively. LOL !!

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[Astro_Pneumatic_Tools]

6PT your instincts are correct on a lot of tools, including many of ours. We don't sprinkle pixy dust on everything we make.

If it's coming from the same factory, and we don't have a US design exclusive, and it's a straight forward product (think something that doesn't have internal components, or doesn't require additional assembly or machining for instance a brake caliper wind back set). We are selling the same thing as many other brands.

We don't make a secret of that, in fact much of our brand loyalty is from people realizing they can get the same quality or design for less than some other brands (who we may OEM for as well).

The trick is how do you ensure its coming from the same factory, because even I have trouble with that. The gap in quality and consistency across different factories on the same product appearance wise I've seen to be astonishing.

 

[L.Cheapo]

We have in the past to little effect.
These "ships from China" outfits pop up and go away multiple times. Even if their account is suspended, you'll see the same product again under a new company name within a month or so. Amazon's not "our" market place anyways - we sell bulk in truck loads to tool warehouses and tool trucks primarily.

I suspect we sell more of these than perhaps every other brand combined, so I'm not worried. Especially on lights, we're already onto the next thing, and the next next thing - that if these then do well will also eventually have knock-offs.

Such as under hood lights that recently debuted in a video?

 

[Strouty]

All things equal, the cheapest one wins in my book.

I luv you bud, but that is a bad attitude.

 

[dkroth]

Such as under hood lights that recently debuted in a video?

"Top secret prototype."

Looks nice and bright. I'm surprised the LED strip isn't longer to provide wider coverage under the hood.

 

[firworks]

Such as under hood lights that recently debuted in a video?

That was exactly my guess as well!

 

[Astro_Pneumatic_Tools]

I'm surprised the LED strip isn't longer to provide wider coverage under the hood.

There's more there than reaches the eye just yet

That was exactly my guess as well!

We had a version of this prototype at SEMA - that's practically old news.

I'm working on lights that will be on the market 2 months from now, 6 months from now and nearly a year from now (literally waiting for the technology to mature). As well as a couple you'll only find on tool trucks.

 

[Skin]

@Skin: China makes many of the highest class products. For example flashlights. And many of the electronics. I heard they make the best violins too

All the good Chinese flashlights I've had experience with were designed and engineered elsewhere. Most electronics are done in China now due to costs and pollution created from mass wave soldering-the best individual components still come from well established manufacturers in other countries. For that matter most PCB design work is done outside of China as well.

I'll take your word on the violins but that's not really the type of product im talking about with regards to innovation and being a world leader in a market segment.

And just to clarify im not dumping on China or saying they cant make good products as they clearly can when quality is demanded. I just don't think they're really comparable to nations that have had a bigger impact in so far as what new products/brands they've brought to market themselves. In that area purely Chinese based entities are either completely copying I/P (which their government goes out of their way to protect) or buying up companies as opposed to creating.

 

[6PTsocket]

All the good Chinese flashlights I've had experience with were designed and engineered elsewhere. Most electronics are done in China now due to costs and pollution created from mass wave soldering-the best individual components still come from well established manufacturers in other countries. For that matter most PCB design work is done outside of China as well.

I'll take your word on the violins but that's not really the type of product im talking about with regards to innovation and being a world leader in a market segment.

And just to clarify im not dumping on China or saying they cant make good products as they clearly can when quality is demanded. I just don't think they're really comparable to nations that have had a bigger impact in so far as what new products/brands they've brought to market themselves. In that area purely Chinese based entities are either completely copying I/P (which their government goes out of their way to protect) or buying up companies as opposed to creating.

How many nations have launched a missile that circled the Moon? The Chinese have. While they have few qualms about "borrowing technology", they are right up there. You have to be kidding if you think they cannot lay out a PC board; even a multi layer one. That is kid stuff. Speaking of kids, we have to import tech people because our kids are so badly educated, even compared to the Chinese. Do not base your judgement on the garbage they send here. They do it because they are filling orders from importers that want stuff made at the lowest possible price. They have the technology of any advanced nation. Thay can build to whatever standard is required. They also have an emerging middle class that lives quite well and take foreign vacations. They hold records on some of the Worlds biggest construction projects while our infastructure is crumbling. They also have wealthy industrialists with private jets.They "cloned" our F22, one of the most advanced fighters. Take a look at Shanghai. It rivals any major city. Don't under eatimate India either They have one of the World's best militarys. Plenty of empires have had their butts kicked by people they looked down upon.

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[marrt]

This is a good example of why patents are worthless. I won't even bother trying to get a patent anymore. Some random Chinese company will copy you in a second (probably the same company you're using for manufacture or another one "across the street"). It's no problem for them to get US distribution through eBay, Amazon or even Walmart. What are you going to do? Sue them in China. Good luck with that.

One result of this dynamic is cheaper goods. Another result is less innovation. China isn't known for innovation. They're known for coping ideas and cheap manufacturing. I've designed several products but I've never manufactured any of them. Just not worth the risk. So I keep my ideas to myself and use them in my shop. I suspect this is more common than people realize.

 

[dnschmidt]

I have little sympathy for American companies that manufacturer their goods in China and then start crying about copying. The most blatant example is Callaway Golf. They make their clubs in China to maximize profit (Ping makes their stuff here in Phoenix) and then when the Chinese use their drawings (which they sent them) to clone their clubs they get all righteous about it. SCREW 'EM. If Ping can do it in America so can you and if the Chinese copy your **** because you sent your designs to them to save some cash well tough. Let's blame the Chinese for everything since the average voter believes this **** as evidenced from the last election. Never blame American greed for Vise-Grips being build in China instead of Nebraska. Our country's average IQ has got to be less than 90 to have blindly let this happen.

 

[thegroundpounder99]

I have little sympathy for American companies that manufacturer their goods in China and then start crying about copying. The most blatant example is Callaway Golf. They make their clubs in China to maximize profit (Ping makes their stuff here in Phoenix) and then when the Chinese use their drawings (which they sent them) to clone their clubs they get all righteous about it. SCREW 'EM. If Ping can do it in America so can you and if the Chinese copy your **** because you sent your designs to them to save some cash well tough. Let's blame the Chinese for everything since the average voter believes this **** as evidenced from the last election. Never blame American greed for Vise-Grips being build in China instead of Nebraska. Our country's average IQ has got to be less than 90 to have blindly let this happen.

Couldn't agree more.


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[ADSR]

I have little sympathy for American companies that manufacturer their goods in China and then start crying about copying. The most blatant example is Callaway Golf. They make their clubs in China to maximize profit (Ping makes their stuff here in Phoenix) and then when the Chinese use their drawings (which they sent them) to clone their clubs they get all righteous about it. SCREW 'EM. If Ping can do it in America so can you and if the Chinese copy your **** because you sent your designs to them to save some cash well tough. Let's blame the Chinese for everything since the average voter believes this **** as evidenced from the last election. Never blame American greed for Vise-Grips being build in China instead of Nebraska. Our country's average IQ has got to be less than 90 to have blindly let this happen.

Brilliant

 

[T45]

Never blame American greed for Vise-Grips being build in China instead of Nebraska.

Sadly this is true...its always some middle-tier executive trying to make a name for him/herself...Somewehere, at sometime, some person made that call...it was all a strategery for getting ahead in a rat-race....its personal greed at the expense of the rest of the country.

What's funny is you can't outsource real-estate development to china; but you can import illegal immigrants and h1B's to undercut American workers. That's how a certain someone knows all this and was able to make a political campaign out of it.

And meanwhile, all of those retirees out in AZ who have abandoned the high-tax states like NY and CA to live in out their retirement...its arguably they are also a part of the problem....RIGHT?

 

[zendriver]

Never blame American greed for Vise-Grips being build in China instead of Nebraska.

They are in a business to compete globally and make money, not create/keep jobs in Nebraska.

That is how a Corporation works. A charter usually requires them to turn a maximum profit, for investors.

Our country's average IQ has got to be less than 90 to have blindly let this happen.

So, we should have the right, to control how someone should run their own business?

 

[dnschmidt]

Germany has it right. The corporations and the Government work in partnership for the benefit of the country and it's citizens. Germany has a very positive balance of payments unlike the good old USA where the trade deficit is in the Trillions. I wouldn't want to hold my breath waiting for Knipex to ship their manufacturing to China and aren't they capitalists as well? America in the 60's and 70's had that balance NOT NOW!

 

[Mr_B]

Indeed Astro one will be massively better in terms of batteries, charger, pcb parts and plastic quality hence why I said for that price difference I would buy Astro .
If the copy was 16bucks it might be worth gamble if casual user. Main thing that annoys me is way they advertise it as quality with obvious false specs/claims and amazon ebay etc gives a platform to sell it illegally and avoiding taxes .
My other half works in mobile accessories and stuff I seen her show me on china phone chargers is simply a death or fire trap . you got be careful what buying or buy from china via ebay and give them some of their own medicine by filing item not received so get the junk for free and the thieves loose money .

 

[zendriver]

Germany has it right. The corporations and the Government work in partnership for the benefit of the country and it's citizens. Germany has a very positive balance of payments unlike the good old USA where the trade deficit is in the Trillions. I wouldn't want to hold my breath waiting for Knipex to ship their manufacturing to China and aren't they capitalists as well? America in the 60's and 70's had that balance NOT NOW!

All that glitters, is not necessarily gold.

The country’s exports have not been matched by imports—Germany runs a very large trade surplus.

Under normal conditions, economists believe that if a country runs a trade surplus, its exchange rate should rise to cancel out some of the imbalance.

But Germany is part of the euro- zone, most of which is in an economic slump. That slump holds down the euro’s exchange rate against that of many other countries, making German exports cheap.

Also, the unified currency doesn’t allow the exchange rates of slower-growing countries such as Greece or Spain to fall against Germany, meaning that Germany gets a boost to exports within Europe.

Some of Germany’s export competitiveness, then, might be coming at the expense of other countries. And some might depend on other European nations being in a slump. Those advantages would be either unhealthy or temporary.

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/cin...w-Germany-became-the-worlds-best-economy.html

 

[Hagatronics]

****** GJ!! As if i don't buy enough tools. I was clicking through the links in the original post and accidentally bought the Astro light from Amazon. Many items don't ship to Australia and if they do freight costs are often exorbitant. Was fumbling with the phone trying to figure out these costs and accidentally clicked one page too far.

I'll let you all know if it's any good once it arrives....