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The Combi/Condensing Boiler Scam

American Locomotive

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Has anyone else found in your areas that a lot of less-than-scrupulous companies are pushing condensing wall-mount or combi-boilers for applications they're really not appropriate for, and then giving absolutely outrageous quotes?

I've had two coworkers in the past month both have combi boilers pushed on them for $13,000-15,000 installed. One didn't even have a problem with their current cast iron 80% natural gas boiler. The company just said "well it's getting kind of old ya know", and tried to push a Viessmann condensing combi on them for $15,000. Even though they have baseboard heat, and that thing would never even get an opportunity to condense. I pointed out to them that it'd take about 109 years for that system to pay for itself with their current natural gas usage.

It's not just the wall mounted boilers either. Minisplits are being pushed hard here, and the install prices are outrageous here too - and they're even installing the cheapo Grees and Senvilles! It's pretty common to see $3500-$5000 in labor + equipment cost to install a single or dual head mini spilt system in my area. Absolutely nuts.
 
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Firebrick43

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I have seen the mini split “scam”.

Seen several quotes to install two standard minis for more than an equivalent central air/heat/ducting. Makes no sense especially what I pay for a Mitsubishi hyperheat at the HVAC supply house.
 

Skiff Builder

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"Has anyone else found in your areas that a lot of less-than-scrupulous companies are pushing condensing wall-mount or combi-boilers for applications they're really not appropriate for, and then giving absolutely outrageous quotes?"

I wouldn't know. Don't ask anyone to install or build anything for me (to the fullest extent possible). I don't have problems with any contractors that way. Complain to myself if needed!

Installed both our Combi, non condensing wall hung boiler/baseboard emitters and a 3 head mini split system myself when building the house. Never done either before- research it, get a tool if needed and put the work in. Easy!
 

danski0224

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The company just said "well it's getting kind of old ya know"
I really wish that there was licensing requirements for HVAC, much like electrical, plumbing and roofing contractors in my area.

That said, that licensing does not remove the risk of shoddy workmanship or dubious upsells.

On the other hand, apparently the average consumer isn't smart enough to connect all of the incessant advertising from HVAC companies to higher prices (not just HVAC, several others). There's a few in my area with seemingly endless TV and radio spots, plus billboards. That **** costs real money.

Having a little inside time within the industry, the techs... err... field salespeople... are under a great deal of pressure to meet sales targets. Sometimes called KPI's. Does that make it right? Nope. But, sometimes it means the difference between having a job or not, and that's when it gets really difficult for the average person. Don't meet those targets? Go find another job. Capitalism is great for the business owner.

Now, those slimeballs that cry "broken heat exchanger" to make a sale or "non-repairable refrigerant leak" and other outright deception deserve whatever Karma comes their way.

Labor rates? Well, auto repair is $200 an hour in my area, and based on book time. Eight hours is $1,600.00... and if there's 2 guys on your job (16 man hours) now that's $3,200.00. No one sending 2 guys out to do an install is bidding out less than 8 hours per person, unless it is T&M. Just like in auto repair, the person actually getting their hands dirty is receiving maybe 25% of that on the check.

Instead of giving the whole industry a black eye, why not put a name to the shady company. That way others might steer clear.

I get it though, it's much easier to stand on the rooftop and cry out that HVAC companies are scum.
 
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Jackfre

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Don’t worry about it. The goal of the company is to make it a two stage sale. “Well, sir, the boiler we sold you is working perfectly. it is your distribution system that is not up to snuff. For $X+ we can install some low temp emitter here and really make this thing sing…But we did tell you.”
 
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American Locomotive

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Yep....lots of rip off companies and bad installers out there these days.In the heating and solar industries....lots of people being screwed:sad:
I personally think it's all of the incentives. I don't mind the idea of incentives, and think they're a great way to get people to consider more efficient options when replacing equipment. But the incentive programs really need a ton more oversight and asterisks attached with that money. It basically seems like whenever a new incentive comes out, the installers just add that incentive value to the price they were already going to charge, and then gaslight the customer into thinking they're getting a great deal because there are incentives.

...and that's how you end up with a single head minisplit install that takes half a day with one guy costing as much as a full split system replacement that takes two guys a whole day. Then the customer gets smoke blown up their *** about how much they're saving with the "incentives" and the "high efficiency".

The "old boiler" coworker was telling me the plumber kept going on and on about the the $1500 or whatever worth of incentives, and my coworker had started to really buy into it before I showed them how little a basic cast iron boiler costs at a supply house.
 

danski0224

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...and that's how you end up with a single head minisplit install that takes half a day with one guy costing as much as a full split system replacement that takes two guys a whole day.
I'm calling ******** on both of those, at least for something that's properly installed.

Definitely on the mini split if it's a new install and there's no power there.

A basic "box swap" furnace and air replacement? Sure. Upgrades, like installing a new PVC vent? Maybe.

But, there's a lot of ****** residential HVAC work out there, so 🤷
 

pcmeiners

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What gets me is HVAC companies make no effort in keeping costs down. They expect extreme compensation for every guy sent out and every part they install. Hire guys for a couple hundred a day to do 90% of the work, and pass the saving along to the customer. Installing most parts of minisplit installs does not require a degree with years of study, so the compensation should not warrant the pay scale.
 

danski0224

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What gets me is HVAC companies make no effort in keeping costs down. They expect extreme compensation for every guy sent out and every part they install. Hire guys for a couple hundred a day to do 90% of the work, and pass the saving along to the customer. Installing most parts of minisplit installs does not require a degree with years of study, so the compensation should not warrant the pay scale.
By this "logic", you also get paid too much...
 

pcmeiners

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I am retired now but when I was a network consultant I was not paid too much, I was paid for my experience and study. Have 35 certifications, college, needed to constantly study and know the contents of 5 " thick books very well every couple years.
 
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American Locomotive

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I'm calling ******** on both of those, at least for something that's properly installed.
It's a relative comparison of the labor involved installing a mini-split system vs a full split system. Not factually stating a mini-split install only takes 4 hours. Mini-split installs go FAST if its a unit you're familiar with and you're using pre-built bases and not pouring concrete. It's significantly less labor.

Yet everyone around here just seems to spit out the same default labor cost number regardless of the type of system being installed. Anything that's "high efficiency" or eligible for incentives/rebates seems to have extra labor cost for no apparent reason.
 

pcmeiners

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"You're not paying for the time, you're paying for the knowledge."

You would be entitled to your scale for your knowledge if HVAC mechanics needed a degree in mechanical engineering and if experienced.

"Anything that's "high efficiency" or eligible for incentives/rebates seems to have extra labor cost for no apparent reason" :thumbup:
 
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American Locomotive

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You're not paying for the time, you're paying for the knowledge.
Yeah, that's a load of ****. If that's true, then why do the employees working for that HVAC company get paid hourly?

...and that's also a dangerous game to play when talking about minisplits. Someone can competently, safely and correctly install a minisplit with maybe 30-45 minutes of training. How much is 45 minutes of "knowledge" worth?
 
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danski0224

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I am retired now but when I was a network consultant I was not paid too much, I was paid for my experience and study. Have 35 certifications, college, needed to constantly study and know the contents of 5 " thick books very well every couple years.
And I don't have any of that /s.
 

danski0224

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I love when somebody who has either never done something or maybe installed one or two units at their own home have all the answers for how a professional company should be run.
I think there's at least 2 guys here that got into a pecker size competition with their local HVAC guys, lost, and have been pissed off ever since.


🤣
 
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American Locomotive

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I love when somebody who has either never done something or maybe installed one or two units at their own home have all the answers for how a professional company should be run.
It's about professional companies doing unprofessional things.

The sad thing is, the professionals on here instead of universally condeming the ones giving their profession a bad name, double down trying to defend them and then personally attack others who communicate stories of more wrongdoing.
 

danski0224

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It's about professional companies doing unprofessional things.
It's really too bad that this code of ethics is limited to HVAC companies.
/s

The sad thing is, the professionals on here instead of universally condeming the ones giving their profession a bad name, double down trying to defend them and then personally attack others who communicate stories of more wrongdoing.
Maybe you missed it, but I do not and will not stick up for companies that do the wrong thing.

Unfortunately, the stance of one person, me, does not change how some of the largest and most brand recognized HVAC companies in my area operate (the ones with the professional sports advertising and all of the billboards). I have seen the work (but certainly not all of it), most of it that I have seen is ****.

I have seen the work in residential new construction, and while I am willing to generally defend the individual doing the work, unlike you, I also know that the quality (or lack thereof) of the installation in this instance is indeed dictated by the builder- that doesn't want to pay for HVAC work. And that the person actually performing the work must adhere to whatever the employer is dictating. It is saddening to see what passes for HVAC in a million dollar house.

I have personally done $15k+ CAST IRON boiler installs. You have no idea what is involved. I don't give a **** that you can buy the boiler at the supply house for $1,200.00. It is NOT difficult to hit that number. The stuff on "This Old House" has to be six figures.

You did not post the scope of work for the boiler install price that you are condemning.

I have no issues at all blasting you or anyone else complaining about prices or labor rates without a scope of work to back up these almost constant complaints about "pricing" and digs against contractors. The second most stupid thing is when a person starts a "what will it cost" thread (HVAC or not), and also has no scope of work, plans or specs. And then the people like you on this forum come in and say that it should only cost "X" (some number seemingly pulled out of thin air).

This forum/site should really prohibit pricing discussions on most construction type projects- or limit pricing discussions to those that include scope of work, plans and specs. If the goal is to "help" with HVAC issues, then pricing does not need to be discussed. Pricing is specific to each region. /rant

There are companies, and people here on this forum, that will slap in a condensing boiler in place of a cast iron boiler, and not do ANYTHING to the piping. I have seen the questions posted here in this forum. I will not walk someone through an install. The directions are in the installation manual. If the individual does not want to read it, or cannot read it, that's not my problem.

The parts to correct a bad piping job are thousands of dollars by themselves, plus installation. Whether or not a condensing boiler is being installed. Most of the pictures I see here of installs, are not installed correctly.

There are companies, and people on this forum, that will not install it properly. The employee is typically told what to do and how to do it, which is often dictated by the bid and scope of work.

Yup, there are those that know better, and still **** it in. THIS IS NOT NOT LIMITED TO HVAC WORK.

The tax incentives do not care if the boiler is suitable for the installation, or not. The unknowing public will ask for such installs because of the tax credit. Shoddy companies will drop hints to try and make the sale, but as I have stated before, that's capitalism, bud. It is also a result of a KPI driven work/salesforce.

Same thing for heat pumps. People ask for them because of the incentive advertising. Shoddy HVAC companies do not do a load calculation or figure the thermal/economic balance point. That is another common topic here. ******** DIY'ers think anyone can put one in and have it work. Obviously not, based upon the posts in this forum.

HVAC is not the only industry with pricing that moves to capture increased profits from incentives. Capitalism at work.

I can easily see $3 to $5k in labor to install a "mini split". The company I work for, installs them. The pipefitters do the refrigerant piping, an electrician does the wiring and I do the start up. Unlike the other two groups, I AM capable of doing it all myself. If someone is paying a company to do this work, it's REALLY EASY to hit those numbers, and in some situations, the work has to be broken out just like I wrote it above, although some fitters can do the start up too. Fortunately, where I am, they do not want to, or can't do it. If I figure my time at company labor rates, guess what, the end number is around the same.

I have heard other blowhards on the job bragging about "4 hour furnace and AC changeouts". I offered one guy $1,00.00 to come and watch, so I could see what I am obviously doing wrong, and he never took me up on my offer.

For the record, I have no problem calling out installation mistakes at my employer. Some of it is due ingrained bad practices and/or not reading the manual. If my name is on it somewhere, I will speak up. I hate coming in behind a couple of other trades to do the start up, because invariably, someone has fucked up something and stuff isn't pre-checked before the ceiling is up and the GC is trying to turn it over, and I have to figure it out.

I have lost a job or two by "doing it right" or asking those questions that are swept under the rug. There can be a real cost for sticking up to your beliefs, and sometimes it isn't worth it when there are bills to pay, and I'm not responsible for the warranty calls. Hate to say it, but that's the truth. Even where I am at now, issues have to be brought up carefully, but the owner is also more receptive to "doing it right" than any other place I have worked at.

A bigger issue than your boiler or mini split pricing is the cracked heat exchanger scam.

Shoddy sales techs and shoddy companies will condemn a heat exchanger with zero proof. No pictures. No combustion analyzer. And they are very good at scaring the homeowner into replacing a system that may be functioning fine, with absolutely zero heat exchanger (HX) issues.

Hell, there is even an industry guideline to determine if the HX is a problem: AHRI Guideline X.

I am a firm believer that combustion appliances and the associated venting and makeup air systems need to be checked each season with a combustion analyzer to ensure that the stuff is working/venting properly. I have been on commercial jobs where the boiler room is over 300 ppm CO because the makeup air system is not working.
 
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drmarkr

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Me....sitting here munching popcorn waiting for someone to tell me my 12 years of education I did AFTER high school, and 3 degrees, earns me too much money....lol.

The really great thing about this country is that it you have the drive, the balls, and the ability to delay gratification you can be successful in a literal bevy of industries.
 

danski0224

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What gets me is HVAC companies make no effort in keeping costs down.

And how are you establishing this factually?

How many businesses that do something besides HVAC are passing on the "cost savings" to customers?

How many CEO's lay off workers in the 4th quarter to fluff the numbers so that a bigger bone-us is paid out to said CEO?

They expect extreme compensation for every guy sent out and every part they install.

The individual doing the work is NOT receiving the hourly billable rate. Even a "bid job" has a certain number of hours that is figured/estimated. Go under hours, boss "makes" money, go "over" hours, boss "loses" money.

The solution to your problem (perceived high project costs) is found through obtaining multiple bids. Of course, the bids mean nothing without a scope of work, plans, and specifications... so, there's that problem. This applies to darn near any contracting project.

Hire guys for a couple hundred a day to do 90% of the work, and pass the saving along to the customer.

Just to dispel the myths being perpetuated in this thread, here is the average salary of a HVAC tech in the USA:

https://www.talent.com/salary?job=hvac+technician

For those of you not clicking the link, it works out to about $28 per hour.

Labor burden, the employer cost, can be anywhere from 1.2 to 1.4x the check wage (or more, or less, depends on a bunch of different stuff). Even at 1.4x, that is just under $40 an hour total cost to the employer, which is $320 a day.

In other words, for the average HVAC technician in the USA, that person is already being hired for "a couple hundred per day".

That technician is NOT getting the billable rate that is established by the Employer, which is what YOU pay.

The billable rate is set by... wait for it... what the market will bear, AKA Capitalism.

Installing most parts of minisplit installs does not require a degree with years of study, so the compensation should not warrant the pay scale.

And again, the simple counterpoint is that you make too much, or made too much.

I have worked for many people with degrees that could not, in any way, shape, or form, handle the physical demands of almost any construction trade. Many have zero concept of how something should be done. Many have zero mechanical ability. I could go on and on, having done a wide variety of lowly "unskilled" labor for "degreed professionals". And to be fair, there is the occasional degreed individual that DOES know, but would rather have someone else do it, usually because they value their time spent elsewhere.
 
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American Locomotive

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It's really too bad that this code of ethics is limited to HVAC companies.
/s
You're arguing a strawman here, no one has said or claimed that. The lack of discussion about other trades' practices does not automatically mean they are guilt-free. That's a logical fallacy.
I have no issues at all blasting you or anyone else complaining about prices or labor rates without a scope of work to back up these almost constant complaints about "pricing" and digs against contractors.
You're taking generalizations people make about contractors in their area as personal digs against you, when they're not. You seem confident that you do right by your customers and do quality work, so why would you feel any of those comments apply to you at all?

The bigger issue are personal attacks: Instead of attacking someone's point, you attack the person: questioning their pay, intelligence, qualifications, etc... to try and discredit them. You have no idea of my qualifications, experience, or the number of dreadful contractors I've had to deal with both in industry and at home. Stop attacking the person and defend your point instead. Show us how a basic cast iron boiler change-out can hit $15,000. Provide an itemized list with a labor times. I've asked contractors to do that thing before, and very few of them do. If they do provide an itemized list, it will be very vague and broad. I've had multiple contractors tell me "Oh, we don't provide that information". Why? Because it becomes quickly apparent they're just making up parts and labor times out of thin air.
This forum/site should really prohibit pricing discussions on most construction type projects- or limit pricing discussions to those that include scope of work, plans and specs. If the goal is to "help" with HVAC issues, then pricing does not need to be discussed. Pricing is specific to each region. /rant
No, they should not prohibit it. Doing so prevents the spreading of knowledge, and allows companies to take advantage of customers. It's the same reason why an employer legally cannot prevent you from talking about pay with coworkers.

The only people who stand to benefit from the prohibition of cost discussions are unscrupulous HVAC contractors.
 
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danski0224

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I think we're done here.
Fine by me.

No reason for me to provide what you are asking for. The customer was fine with my proposal and that's all that matters.

Not the guy like you that says I can get that part cheaper... or it should only take x/2 hours to finish.

Nope. Not playing your game.

You can make up your own list of parts, materials and labor time, and then post it.

Practice what you preach, brother.
 

4x4Pete

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Typical bs in this thread. All the same individuals spouting off about HVAC companies and how much they ripoff people. Never any info regarding the actual job itself Without knowing the particulars of any job it's easy to say it's being overpriced. The installation is always easy, according to the usual suspects and it only takes 45 minutes to "know everything" to install the equipment.:rolleyes: I think these guys should open a HVAC business and with their vast knowledge they will corner the market in no time. Do everybody a favor and save the general public from these savage HVAC businesses! Sounds like there's a bit of jealousy in their complaints.
 
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American Locomotive

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I am not stopping him, he is a roll all by himself. Pass the popcorn.... any tostitos around ?
Well if you want snacks, I'm going to have to bill you for them first.

...but I'm not going to tell you which snacks I'm buying, the quantity or how much they cost me. I also charge by the hour, but I'm not going to tell you how long it will take me to open the bag and pour it into the bowl for you. BTW, your local codes/laws say you're not allowed to pour the snacks into the bag yourself, even if you have the knowledge and skills to do it correctly and safely.

You might try and shop around, but good luck, because all of the other snack vendors are booked up since its snack season. So unless you want sit in a freezing cold snack-less house all winter, I'm your only option and you better pony up.

...and if you dare question my billing and pricing practices online, I'm going to personally attack you and say "iF yOu thinK yOu CaN seLL snAcKs ChEApeR whY doN't YoU oPeN youR oWn SnACk BusinESs?" instead of actually providing any real justification for my pricing.

...and then these snack people wonder why they get so much disdain online.
 

4x4Pete

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If you don't like the price don't buy. Bitching online isn't going to help you. It's not any HVAC company's problem if you can't afford them. It's what the market will bear. Do you ***** about anything else that you feel is too expensive or has unqualified people working in that field? Do you ask your smartphone company to breakdown the price of all the parts and labour for your phone? Or a line item list of all the parts and labor for your car? No, just the HVAC company.
 
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American Locomotive

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If you don't like the price don't buy. Bitching online isn't going to help you. It's not any HVAC company's problem if you can't afford them. It's what the market will bear.
That only applies in an idealized fictional world where we don't need heat to survive. If your boiler fails heading into winter, you literally have no choice, it has to be replaced or your home will freeze. For many people (especially the elderly), the same is true of air conditioning in the summer. So it's either you pay what the man wants, or all the pipes in your house burst and you might die of hypothermia in the winter - or, you cook to death in your own home in the summer.

On top of that, many HVAC companies have quite small service areas, meaning there are often only 2, maybe 3 potential options in a given area. Then on top of that, for whatever reason many states have their own HVAC licensing laws, meaning someone in one state over who might actually be closer and offer better rates is not legally allowed to service.

Many states/AHJs also have restrictions preventing home owners from performing their own plumbing installs. In many areas, even something as simple as an electric water heater change out legally requires a licensed plumber to do it.

It is not a "free capitalist" market in any sense.
Do you ask your smartphone company to breakdown the price of all the parts and labour for your phone? Or a line item list of all the parts and labor for your car? No, just the HVAC company.
Those things are not even remotely comparable, and you know it. With a phone, I have near infinite choices to shop from. I can buy a phone from anyone, anywhere - even out of the country. I don't need a licensed phone tech to set it up for me, and I certainly won't freeze to death if my phone breaks. Additionally, a phone is a singular complete device, much like a boiler, or a minisplit is. If I owned a company, and contracted out to an IT solutions firm to provide phones for my company's employees, you can absolutely bet I'd be requesting a detailed itemized list of device cost, support labor rates, and more. I would want to know exactly what I'm getting, and what I'm paying for.

The same goes for a car. The car is a complete machine. But If I bring my car to the shop, I sure as hell want to know what parts they put in it, and how long it's going to take to do the job.
Do you ***** about anything else that you feel is too expensive or has unqualified people working in that field?
Once again, you're arguing the strawman. I never said every other trade is perfect. You're trying to deflect.
 
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