The Concrete Underground
- Thread starter ConCretin
- Start date
I leave on vacation for a week and there's a floor!
Are all of your floors throughout the house going to be load bearing to the capacity of vehicles?
I wonder why they only leave 1" of overlap with the litedeck ends.. Just to end up with more concrete alonmg the beam after the pour?
Are all of your floors throughout the house going to be load bearing to the capacity of vehicles?
I wonder why they only leave 1" of overlap with the litedeck ends.. Just to end up with more concrete alonmg the beam after the pour?
Ok, here we go with the first post from the site. Internet is live so hopefully I can resume more regular updates.
The metal form deck arrived so we could start with the roof over the ductwork crawlspaces. We cut the pieces to length and attached them with 1 1/4" washered pins fired from a powder actuated tool. The wood forms are to create pockets for the steel columns.
We laid down a piece of 4 x 4 angle to support one side where the direction of the decking changed
We're cutting scraps of rigid insulation to fill the gaps. You would typically use a metal closure strip but I never got around to procuring it. This will work fine - I'll just claim it's for additional R value if anybody asks.
We've started forming the edges for the first placement. We'll place 4" of concrete over the decking, which will get us to slab sub grade, followed by 2" rigid and the 4" floor slab.
We've also continued detailing the LiteDeck and spread most of the wire mesh.
Before we did the mesh, we glued on all the High Hats, which are fillers that are provided with the planks to give you the desired beam and slab depths. The basic plank is 6" and we added 2" high hats. When we place a 3" slab over the top, we'll have a total depth of 11" with 9" deep beams.
Here's a shot of the completed rebar at the cantilever perimeter beam
We've also formed the opening for the basement stairs.
Heres another little beam that forms the edge of the stair opening.
Needless to say, this thing isn't getting any easier. The next step is to get the plumbing and HVAC roughed in, which is proving to be a challenge. We've tried to coordinate beam locations starting with the items that have the least flexibility like toilet flanges but once the pattern is set, you're pretty much stuck with it.
My plumber and geothermal (radiant) guys are coming tomorrow and hopefully we'll figure it all out.
Nor sure if I mentioned it but my Rotary in-floor lift arrived but was damaged. Rotary has said they'll ship another asap. Hopefully it will arrive in time to keep the slab placement schedule.
The metal form deck arrived so we could start with the roof over the ductwork crawlspaces. We cut the pieces to length and attached them with 1 1/4" washered pins fired from a powder actuated tool. The wood forms are to create pockets for the steel columns.
We laid down a piece of 4 x 4 angle to support one side where the direction of the decking changed
We're cutting scraps of rigid insulation to fill the gaps. You would typically use a metal closure strip but I never got around to procuring it. This will work fine - I'll just claim it's for additional R value if anybody asks.
We've started forming the edges for the first placement. We'll place 4" of concrete over the decking, which will get us to slab sub grade, followed by 2" rigid and the 4" floor slab.
We've also continued detailing the LiteDeck and spread most of the wire mesh.
Before we did the mesh, we glued on all the High Hats, which are fillers that are provided with the planks to give you the desired beam and slab depths. The basic plank is 6" and we added 2" high hats. When we place a 3" slab over the top, we'll have a total depth of 11" with 9" deep beams.
Here's a shot of the completed rebar at the cantilever perimeter beam
We've also formed the opening for the basement stairs.
Heres another little beam that forms the edge of the stair opening.
Needless to say, this thing isn't getting any easier. The next step is to get the plumbing and HVAC roughed in, which is proving to be a challenge. We've tried to coordinate beam locations starting with the items that have the least flexibility like toilet flanges but once the pattern is set, you're pretty much stuck with it.
My plumber and geothermal (radiant) guys are coming tomorrow and hopefully we'll figure it all out.
Nor sure if I mentioned it but my Rotary in-floor lift arrived but was damaged. Rotary has said they'll ship another asap. Hopefully it will arrive in time to keep the slab placement schedule.
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JakeKohl
Well-known member
There's not much chance to go back and remodel/rearrange this house later! Looks great.
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HOTFR8
Banned
Progress and updates from the site. 
Love the little red flowers popping up all over the place 
Love the little red flowers popping up all over the place ODIS
Well-known member
Several of my favorite tools included here in your shot of the stairwell... Pry Bar, tape measure, framing square, and the most useful for me, the BFH.
Sorry to hear about the lift. Perhaps they (Rotary) know of this build thread and will be expediting to meet your intended schedule.
Have certainly enjoyed the journey to date and look forward to many more of your posts. Thanks again for all the extra time put into keeping us all informed.
Ody.
squatch
Well-known member
There are dozens of ways to do this but the most complete way is to save a PDF of the entire thread.
First, you'll need to download and install PDF Creator (or some other PDF "printing" tool) from http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/files/latest/download
This will install a new printer on your computer. Then, anytime you need create a PDF, just open the program's print dialog window and choose the PDFCreator printer. It will ask you for a file name and create the PDF document.
Next, open the entire thread in one window using this url:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145073&showall=1
It will take a while. Who posted all of these damn images!
Next, in your web browser, choose, File->Print. Select the PDFCreator printer and give it a file name. Then click save. It'll take a bit because of the images. You will be left with a pdf file that looks something like this:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17010220/Internet/concreteundergroundthread.pdf
The only downside is you can't edit this pdf file easily. As the thread grows or changes, you will need to take new snaps shots. Also, the pdf can grow quite large. I think my test was 28MB or so.
Thanks for sharing the details of this fascinating build with us.
Casey
Thedoc14
Well-known member
Hey LL, I like the way you have incorporated the little angle iron legs to tie the rebar in on that cantilever beam. 
It wont sag or crack like that.
Hope to see regular updates again.
It wont sag or crack like that. Hope to see regular updates again.
Deltaphi216
Member
i just can't get over this build.
bravo!
bravo!
CoconutPete
Well-known member
Today was like Christmas - I had forgotten about this thread for 3 weeks!!!!! I just rediscovered it. Fun day! Great pics.
Well today went better than I expected. With both the plumber and geothermal guys on site and a hundred problems to solve, I expected chaos but we all worked together and had a pretty productive day.
The challenge with the LiteDeck is that there are only certain areas you cut holes through (between the beams). We had dozens of penetrations to locate and each one required some careful thought. Add to that the difficulty of running all the radiant tubing around the penetrations and you have a coordination nightmare.
We started by locating the registers in the floor and duct penetrations for wall grilles. I just marked them out so the guys could run the radiant around them - we'll cut them in tomorrow. We then laid out all the plumbing penetrations and got them in while the tubing was going down. I would have preferred to spread this work over a couple days but you gotta get the subs when they're available.
Here's the rough in for back to back water closets
The black lines are just sleeves for the Pex water lines. The PVC are drain lines.
Heres the rough in for the kitchen island sink with an air test on awaiting inspection.
We ran the radiant tubing doen through the LiteDeck into the basement.
My small carpentry crew kept busy with misc details like the edge forms for the ductwork crawl spaces
Tomorrow we'll cut out the duct penetrations, form some window block-outs and install a blockout for a linear shower drain. A few more details and we're ready to place.
The challenge with the LiteDeck is that there are only certain areas you cut holes through (between the beams). We had dozens of penetrations to locate and each one required some careful thought. Add to that the difficulty of running all the radiant tubing around the penetrations and you have a coordination nightmare.
We started by locating the registers in the floor and duct penetrations for wall grilles. I just marked them out so the guys could run the radiant around them - we'll cut them in tomorrow. We then laid out all the plumbing penetrations and got them in while the tubing was going down. I would have preferred to spread this work over a couple days but you gotta get the subs when they're available.
Here's the rough in for back to back water closets
The black lines are just sleeves for the Pex water lines. The PVC are drain lines.
Heres the rough in for the kitchen island sink with an air test on awaiting inspection.
We ran the radiant tubing doen through the LiteDeck into the basement.
My small carpentry crew kept busy with misc details like the edge forms for the ductwork crawl spaces
Tomorrow we'll cut out the duct penetrations, form some window block-outs and install a blockout for a linear shower drain. A few more details and we're ready to place.
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Bib Overalls
Well-known member
LLWillysfan;2467078 A few more details and we're ready to place.[/QUOTE said:
Sorry for the dumb questions but what are the smaller forms (on the left) for? Pillars of some sort?
Thanks Casey. That's great info to have.
Overall I think we'll be something over 600 cy. For this placement, I haven't figured it yet. It's going to be tough given all the cracks and crevasses. If I get it within 2 cy, I'll be happy.
No dumb questions - the damn thing is so complicated, I'd be surprised if I could answer 2 out of 3. In this case I can. The forms you see block out for the steel columns that will support the second floor.
I was so busy last week that I missed a bunch of your thread. It took me some time but I'm caught up.
Any idea of how many feet of radiant tubing you're using ?
Any idea of how many feet of radiant tubing you're using ?
Thedoc14
Well-known member
Man I am Excited to see some ground level concrete go in, then the puzzle will start to look like your house, then your home.....
Well, we are still deeply mired in LiteDeck detailing. I'm starting to think those wood framers might be on to something. Turns out this concrete thing is complicated.
There's as much work below as there is above. Heres some shoring we built to support one of the beams that frames the stairwell opening;
Had one of my welders stop by to weld some 3/4" rods to the top of a beam that will support an architectural concrete wall. I wanted to make sure the two were tied together.
One of the major challenges is locating the 20 odd duct penetrations so they hit the rooms and partitions above without damaging the structural integrity of the LiteDeck. So far we've managed pretty well with only a few locations needing some structural enhancements. We'll re-arrange the tubing a bit before we place.
We're installing plywood boxes to form the openings. I'll probably just leave them in place. Here's a shot from below.
In a perfect world, I'd have all this stuff in before I did the radiant tubing but it's the same crew that helped coordinate the ductwork and install the radiant so I did it all in one trip.
We also needed to block out an area for a linear shower drain. We'll tile directly over the concrete slab (with a waterproofing membrane) so the drain has to sit within the floor. To maintain the integrity of the floor we removed the foam to the top of the metal inserts and built a beam across the end of the standard LiteDeck Beams, which were reduced a couple inches in depth by the block-out. Here's the area before the form went in.
Here is the form in place;
We also formed some block-outs at the slab edge where we have floor to ceiling glass doors and windows. The units will sit 2" below finish floor to eliminate the trip hazard and reduce the amount of frame you see.
The holes you see in beam are for one of the column that will support the roof. We'll place the bolts pointing up through the holes and form a pocket to keep the concrete from covering the bearing surface.
I was originally going to place concrete tomorrow but decided to take the weekend to think everything through completely so's not to miss anything. There are a thousand things to consider. We'll survey the tubing carefully but I don't want to cut into that floor unless I absolutely have to.
There's as much work below as there is above. Heres some shoring we built to support one of the beams that frames the stairwell opening;
Had one of my welders stop by to weld some 3/4" rods to the top of a beam that will support an architectural concrete wall. I wanted to make sure the two were tied together.
One of the major challenges is locating the 20 odd duct penetrations so they hit the rooms and partitions above without damaging the structural integrity of the LiteDeck. So far we've managed pretty well with only a few locations needing some structural enhancements. We'll re-arrange the tubing a bit before we place.
We're installing plywood boxes to form the openings. I'll probably just leave them in place. Here's a shot from below.
In a perfect world, I'd have all this stuff in before I did the radiant tubing but it's the same crew that helped coordinate the ductwork and install the radiant so I did it all in one trip.
We also needed to block out an area for a linear shower drain. We'll tile directly over the concrete slab (with a waterproofing membrane) so the drain has to sit within the floor. To maintain the integrity of the floor we removed the foam to the top of the metal inserts and built a beam across the end of the standard LiteDeck Beams, which were reduced a couple inches in depth by the block-out. Here's the area before the form went in.
Here is the form in place;
We also formed some block-outs at the slab edge where we have floor to ceiling glass doors and windows. The units will sit 2" below finish floor to eliminate the trip hazard and reduce the amount of frame you see.
The holes you see in beam are for one of the column that will support the roof. We'll place the bolts pointing up through the holes and form a pocket to keep the concrete from covering the bearing surface.
I was originally going to place concrete tomorrow but decided to take the weekend to think everything through completely so's not to miss anything. There are a thousand things to consider. We'll survey the tubing carefully but I don't want to cut into that floor unless I absolutely have to.
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Buzz Lightyear
Well-known member
Lots of stuff I don't understand going on here but it's still the thread I look for first every time I log on.
Keep them updates coming please
Keep them updates coming please
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
Good to have plenty of photos of the tubing in case you need to cut into the floor later on.
Murphys law will ensure that there will be at least one thing you miss.. lol
Murphys law will ensure that there will be at least one thing you miss.. lol
el Pedro
Well-known member
Always excited to see this thread updated with pictures. It's a great learning experience and amazing documentation of the whole process. The design and location of the house are just perfect.
Thanks for keeping us filled in and taking us on the journey with you.
Thanks for keeping us filled in and taking us on the journey with you.
Yes ^^^ Absolute necessity!!! I can't believe how many times I thought I had a picture of some framing, plumbing or wiring before drywall only to see that wall or detail wasn't documented on the house addition, not going to let that happen on the shop...
If you can go around with a camera and have a tape laidout in the pictures- invaluable later-on.
Oh and as usaul..
I want to make sure I understand this correctly: The new form for the linear drain does not actually rest on the LiteDeck, but is suspended a little bit above the foam? I am trying to picture where the concrete flows to/around. I suspect that you are trying to maintain strength by having the concrete beneath the drain. I know nothing about concrete & its strength, but I have to wonder how strong it will be, considering that void the form creates is so long. Is it possible to have support from below, right before the modification of the LiteDeck, so the area where the drain is does not need to provide much if any support to the floor?
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
Looks super strong to me with 5 beams running under it?
strength is maintained as LL has carved to foam down to maintian concrete depth under the drain, only downside I can see is there will be thermal transfer from the steel inserts in the lite-deck, however this is not a peice that hangs outside the structure from what I can tell...
There are a couple things going on here.
The first is that the floor will slope 1" to the shower drain. The concrete section between the beams is only 3" so I removed the 2" high hat, which gives me 4' to 5" of concrete under the shower.
The second concern was the beams themselves, which are 9" deep. The shower drain block-out reduces the depth by 3". To compensate for this we removed the foam down to the top of the metal inserts and added a bunch of rebar effectively widening the beam to make up for it's reduced depth.
The area underneath is heated space.
Spent the last couple days checking everything and going over the final details. Nothing interesting to take photos of but we're placing concrete on Monday
Tony, the spans are quite short and the reinforcing is heavy. I expect to see some cracking over the tops of the beams similar to a slab on metal deck but since the floors aren't exposed, I'm not that worried about it.
We are expecting .45" of deflection in the cantilever and are planning accordingly. The beams were fabricated with the natural camber up and we set them high by that amount. We'll gauge the slab depth off the beams and finish it with an upward slope. Hopefully when the wall and roof loads are applied it will come back down to level. The whole thing is a bit of a science project
64dragnwagon
Well-known member
I have been following from the beginning and I thought I should comment and say this is an awesome building project and an interesting thread.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to document and explain each step of this fantastic build.
I had already decided that my next (and probably last) home would be of ICF construction, so I'm following along with great interest.
No doubt my build will be of less a complex design, however even in a relatively simple plan, the details seem endless. How in the world can a person building their home communicate to the builder and crafts on site?! For instance, you know which walls are intended to be architectural, and with your experience you know where and how to place your form ties for the result intended....or the proper foundation drainage... or adequate bracing for the initial pour, etc, etc.
How does a layman communicate all these details, and ensure proper craftsmanship? It's rare to find a contractor (in my experience) who care as much about project as much as the guy who has been planning it in his head for a dozen years.
So, if you weren't doing all of this yourself, how would you make sure it's done to your standards?
I had already decided that my next (and probably last) home would be of ICF construction, so I'm following along with great interest.
No doubt my build will be of less a complex design, however even in a relatively simple plan, the details seem endless. How in the world can a person building their home communicate to the builder and crafts on site?! For instance, you know which walls are intended to be architectural, and with your experience you know where and how to place your form ties for the result intended....or the proper foundation drainage... or adequate bracing for the initial pour, etc, etc.
How does a layman communicate all these details, and ensure proper craftsmanship? It's rare to find a contractor (in my experience) who care as much about project as much as the guy who has been planning it in his head for a dozen years.
So, if you weren't doing all of this yourself, how would you make sure it's done to your standards?
KPSquared
Well-known member
How do you do it? You don't.
If you're not a contractor with all the experience, then decide on your house plans, pick a good contractor, and then stay the hell out of the way. If you don't have the building knowledge and experience, you'll just be in the way and end up costing yourself more money by ******* off the GC with all your "helpfull" input.
As a layman, the best thing you can do is work really hard with a designer to get the house the way you want it on paper. Also, do all the research you can when choosing your GC. Talk to people, FOLLOW UP ON REFERENCES, go see some of his other work. You need someone you can trust to do the job the way you want it.
LLWillys is one of those rare guys that gets to use his day job skills and knowledge to build his own dream house. Most of us "average joes" will never get that chance. Although, this house is so awesome it's kinda like a doctor doing his own heart surgery. . .
If you're not a contractor with all the experience, then decide on your house plans, pick a good contractor, and then stay the hell out of the way. If you don't have the building knowledge and experience, you'll just be in the way and end up costing yourself more money by ******* off the GC with all your "helpfull" input.
As a layman, the best thing you can do is work really hard with a designer to get the house the way you want it on paper. Also, do all the research you can when choosing your GC. Talk to people, FOLLOW UP ON REFERENCES, go see some of his other work. You need someone you can trust to do the job the way you want it.
LLWillys is one of those rare guys that gets to use his day job skills and knowledge to build his own dream house. Most of us "average joes" will never get that chance. Although, this house is so awesome it's kinda like a doctor doing his own heart surgery. . .
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TurboCup87
Well-known member
Awesome project! Thanks for taking all of your extra time to explain things to us. This is very educational.
Baada
Well-known member
Just read through from start to finish....well I guess not finish, howabout to date.
Awesome project. And as it has already been said many times before, KUDOS to you for doing the never to be seen again stuff the right way and fixing the stuff that didn't. Anybody else notice how you start recognizing some of the workers?
Love the whole dock setup, that is just about as cool as it gets.
I'm wondering if you have any concern about the house being loud with the exposed architectural concrete walls? Not sure this would actually be the case because I've never been in a strictly concrete house but I know my concrete basement echos quite a bit? Just curious.
Again....awesome work. Keept it up.
Awesome project. And as it has already been said many times before, KUDOS to you for doing the never to be seen again stuff the right way and fixing the stuff that didn't. Anybody else notice how you start recognizing some of the workers?
Love the whole dock setup, that is just about as cool as it gets.
I'm wondering if you have any concern about the house being loud with the exposed architectural concrete walls? Not sure this would actually be the case because I've never been in a strictly concrete house but I know my concrete basement echos quite a bit? Just curious.
Again....awesome work. Keept it up.
I think KPSquared got it about right. An owner's primary means of communicating his expectations to the contractor are through the plans and specifications. The plans also form the basis of the contract, which gives those expectations legal force.
Keep in mind that this cuts both ways. Your plans also form the basis of the contractor's pricing. If you haven't been clear or you change something, the contractor will rightfully expect to be paid for it.
The trick, of course is to clearly define those expectations on paper. For a complex project, the services of an architect are typically required. For a simpler job, a diligent homeowner can usually manage.
If I wasn't the builder on this project, I'd start by spending as much time as necessary figuring out what I wanted and doing a ton of research. I'd then work closely with my architect to clearly communicate my priorities through the plans.
For example, for the architectural concrete I might ask that all panels seams, ties and built in items be laid out in a uniform and symetrical manner and that the proposed layout be submitted for approval.
I'd follow up with detailed discussions with my builder to ensure they understood what I was looking for AND priced the job accordingly.
Once you get to this point you basically have to step back and allow the contractor to determine means and methods. This is where you'll know whether you've chosen your contractor wisely. You should monitor the work and raise legitimate concerns but be reasonable as long as he is.
I hope that helps. If you have specific questions about your upcoming ICF project, feel free to PM me.
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It's a good question. There are a lot of hard (glass and exposed concrete) surfaces. The ICF walls will help some as will the sheetrock ceilings but we'll probably have to introduce a fair amount of 'soft' surfaces through the furnishings. I'll have to give this more thought. Suggestions as always are welcome.