Thedoc14
Well-known member
How did the camper survive any ice inside?
Cant wait for your updates.
Cant wait for your updates.
The Concrete Underground
- Thread starter ConCretin
- Start date
Bib Overalls
Well-known member
And we with you.
Leyenda30
Active member
I couldn't be happier for you, congratulations. Now pace yourself and don't let all that pent up energy get you laid up by being in too much of a hurry to get'r done. It will be good to see the daily reports like we were used to and wishing we were capable of the progress you made. All the best! JP
It not may be the most exciting topic in the world, but let's talk some formwork. As those that have been following this thread know, we've got architectural concrete going on. In preparation for re-starting work we've been designing and building our formwork.
Generally speaking, the term architectural concrete is refers to concrete that is exposed to view and is intended to be a finished product. Think drywall. As such, the goal is to make it as perfect as possible. The goal is a smooth, uniform surface with minimal air holes and zero defects.
We did a 'poor man's version' of architectural concrete on portions of the foundation that were exposed by covering our modular forms with MDO plywood and carefully arranging the panels to create a uniform tie pattern. We need to take it up another notch for the walls that are inside the house.
To do this we'll build custom wood forms. We started with 4x8 sheets of MDO plywood and backed it up with 2x4 walers at 12" OC. Plywood 'plates' help keep everything straight. Since we want our ties spaced out a little wider, we'll use double 2x4 strongbacks that capture the ties spaced at 24". We laid out the tie pattern so the spacing will be maintained as panels are placed side by side.
The next photo shows the standard panel we'll be using. In real life the panel will be turned 90 degrees but we've laid it down to pour a little mock up.
Since our goal is a perfectly smooth surface, we utilized plywood backer strips and blind screws to hold the plywood to the backing frame.
One of the major reasons we opted to do a mock up is to help us (and by us, I mean the boss) decide what kind of tie to use. We're considering two options. The first is a coil tie that is similar to what we used on the exterior walls. You remove the plastic cone and fill the void just to just below the surface with matching mortar. The tie pattern remains visible and become part of the architectural detail of the wall.
Here's a couple shots showing the portions of the coil tie system on the interior and exterior of the forms
The bolt is screwed into the tie while the nut and washer clamps the form tight to the tie.
The other option is a fiberglass rod tie. This system utilized a 'gripper' that grabs the tie when you tighten it down. After the forms are stripped the fiberglass tie rod is cut flush with the concrete. They are virtually invisible and obviously do not rust.
Here's a couple shots of this system. The little clips you see are to hold a second fg rod that acts as a spacer. Not sure we'd use this method in real life but the idea behind the mock up was to try a few things to see how they work.
This is the gripper that tightens down on the fg rod. We taped it so it wouldn't back off. We are experimenting with external vibrators and they shake the form pretty good.
After we place a strip the sample wall, we'll be able to view the ties side by side and make a decision. I'll post some pics after we strip and show you the difference.
There's a lot more about form design and architectural concrete that I'll cover for those who are interested but this post is getting a bit wordy so I'll sign off for now.
Generally speaking, the term architectural concrete is refers to concrete that is exposed to view and is intended to be a finished product. Think drywall. As such, the goal is to make it as perfect as possible. The goal is a smooth, uniform surface with minimal air holes and zero defects.
We did a 'poor man's version' of architectural concrete on portions of the foundation that were exposed by covering our modular forms with MDO plywood and carefully arranging the panels to create a uniform tie pattern. We need to take it up another notch for the walls that are inside the house.
To do this we'll build custom wood forms. We started with 4x8 sheets of MDO plywood and backed it up with 2x4 walers at 12" OC. Plywood 'plates' help keep everything straight. Since we want our ties spaced out a little wider, we'll use double 2x4 strongbacks that capture the ties spaced at 24". We laid out the tie pattern so the spacing will be maintained as panels are placed side by side.
The next photo shows the standard panel we'll be using. In real life the panel will be turned 90 degrees but we've laid it down to pour a little mock up.
Since our goal is a perfectly smooth surface, we utilized plywood backer strips and blind screws to hold the plywood to the backing frame.
One of the major reasons we opted to do a mock up is to help us (and by us, I mean the boss) decide what kind of tie to use. We're considering two options. The first is a coil tie that is similar to what we used on the exterior walls. You remove the plastic cone and fill the void just to just below the surface with matching mortar. The tie pattern remains visible and become part of the architectural detail of the wall.
Here's a couple shots showing the portions of the coil tie system on the interior and exterior of the forms
The bolt is screwed into the tie while the nut and washer clamps the form tight to the tie.
The other option is a fiberglass rod tie. This system utilized a 'gripper' that grabs the tie when you tighten it down. After the forms are stripped the fiberglass tie rod is cut flush with the concrete. They are virtually invisible and obviously do not rust.
Here's a couple shots of this system. The little clips you see are to hold a second fg rod that acts as a spacer. Not sure we'd use this method in real life but the idea behind the mock up was to try a few things to see how they work.
This is the gripper that tightens down on the fg rod. We taped it so it wouldn't back off. We are experimenting with external vibrators and they shake the form pretty good.
After we place a strip the sample wall, we'll be able to view the ties side by side and make a decision. I'll post some pics after we strip and show you the difference.
There's a lot more about form design and architectural concrete that I'll cover for those who are interested but this post is getting a bit wordy so I'll sign off for now.
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SiGmA_X
Well-known member
First, I'm super stoked to see that the work site is going to be back in action, and you will be posting updates again!!
Second, great info regarding the forms. It will be cool to see how it all goes together!
Second, great info regarding the forms. It will be cool to see how it all goes together!
Omphaloskeptic
Well-known member
Thanks for the description of what 'Architectural concrete' actually is; I was thinking it might be a special mix. Do you have to be careful how the release agent gets applied to the MDO, or does it even get used in this application? Since you are going 24" O.C., do you worry about any 'bellying' effect when the forms are stacked vertically? Do they make any kind of 'truss rod' which would lay between the doubled strong backs and apply pressure to the 12" O.C. 'no-tie' points? How are the seams between each panel assembly treated/finished to prevent squeeze-out leakage?
Sorry for all the questions, but this neophyte wonders how the pros handle all the details of fine finish work. Thanks for sharing all the pics and posts of what is going to be a one-of-a-kind home. I remember touring F.L.W.'s house for the Kaufman family 'Fallingwater' many years ago and remarking to the tour guide that he seemed to be pioneering a whole new set of rules for building a home; you seem to be out there on the 'bleeding edge' also in choosing materials/techniques/tools used on this build.
Sorry for all the questions, but this neophyte wonders how the pros handle all the details of fine finish work. Thanks for sharing all the pics and posts of what is going to be a one-of-a-kind home. I remember touring F.L.W.'s house for the Kaufman family 'Fallingwater' many years ago and remarking to the tour guide that he seemed to be pioneering a whole new set of rules for building a home; you seem to be out there on the 'bleeding edge' also in choosing materials/techniques/tools used on this build.
Wow. Excellent questions - each of your points are critical to pulling off architectural quality concrete.
Form release is used but since you don't want anything interfering with the concrete paste's ability to move across the form surface, you wipe the surface down leaving only a film. The smooth plywood surface doesn't require much oil.
You can prevent visible 'bellying', if you design your forms properly. First you need to calculate form pressure, which is a factor of height (form width is irrelevant).
Pressure in lbs/sf = height x 150, the weight of a cubic foot of concrete. Using this formula for an 8' form, the pressure at the bottom will be 1,200 psf. The deeper the form the higher the pressure. Since you place the concrete in lifts, slower pour rates can provide time for some initial set to occur in the bottom and reduce form pressure but you have to take temperature into account because in cold weather, the concrete won't set as fast.
Once you've determined form pressure based on your projected pour rate and temperature, you look at each formwork element and support it as necessary to limit deflection to an acceptable level. In my case;
- The 3/4 plywood run the strong way over walers at 12" centers will not deflect too much.
- The 2x4 walers supported every 24" with double 2x4 strongbacks will not deflect too much
- The double 2x4 strongbacks supported by ties every 24" will not deflect too much
- Either the coil or fiberglass ties are adequate to resist the load gathered up by all the form components without breaking
The most efficient form design maximizes each component to its limit (with a safety factor). In my case, I'm really more concerned with a uniform and consistent tie pattern so I'm well below the limits
I teach my guys to do a quick evaluation of every form they build to ensure that the load path doesn't run through a weak spot that will fail. Start at the form face and work your way back to the tie or brace that will eventually have to resist the load that has been gathered up.
For example, Let's say you are forming the 12" deep haunch on a mono slab. To keep it simple we'll assume a form pressure of 150 psi though in reality it's less than that. Your 2x12 form face can probably span 4' between supports but each stake will need to withstand 600 lbs (4 sf x 150). If your in loose soil, that might be too much so you install a stake every 2' and cut the load to 300 lbs. If you have something rugged to brace against. you might use a stiffer form face that could span 8' and use braces capable of handing 1,200 lbs.
One thing I'll add is that ties are always more efficient than braces. Taking advantage of the tensile strength of metal by tying two form faces together is almost always less work than transferring the load to two external surfaces.
As long (and probably painful) as all that was, I hope it's a decent description of the form design process.
With regard to 'squeeze out leakage', we apply sealant to all seams to ensure the forms are literally water tight. This is vital to a uniform surface. You need to vibrate the hell out of the concrete and if water can escape, it will take some fines with it causing what is called sand streaking.
Sorry for the long post but I thought some of you guys might be interested. Maybe in the future you guys should scroll down to see how long winded I'm going to be before you commit to reading the whole damn thing.
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Sorry for the long post but I thought some of you guys might be interested. Maybe in the future you guys should scroll down to see how long winded I'm going to be before you commit to reading the whole damn thing.
[/B]
Absolutely no reason to be sorry. You're teaching a helluva lot of guy about concrete work on the internet. The best teachers explain the hows and whys of doing something and not merely showing somebody how to do it.
If they weren't interested, they wouldn't be in your thread.
PrimeIsFine
Active member
Sorry for the long post but I thought some of you guys might be interested. Maybe in the future you guys should scroll down to see how long winded I'm going to be before you commit to reading the whole damn thing.
We are interested! Keep it up. And thank you.
bigman68
Well-known member
Great project,I have followed this from the start. I have worked for a concrete supply company for 20 years, I am always amazed at the different apporoches to concrete forming people use across the country. Have you ever considered using the Gates #9 Anchor Lock with a reusable taper tie. You can purchased or rent these and it really cuts your cost and assembly time once you panels are built.
http://www.gatesconcreteforms.com/gang9AL.html
http://www.gatesconcreteforms.com/gang9AL.html
Omphaloskeptic
Well-known member
Hey, WOW back at you! EXCELLENT description of the thought process you use in laying out your form work planning. Never worry yourself about being long-winded in your replies; we appreciate the details of a craft that we are ignorant of and it helps us understand the 'whys and wherefores' involved.
Man, for an architectural finish to come out right, there are a lot of places for 'Mr. Murphy' to show his unwelcome face. I'll bet that even the time spent mixing the mud in the delivery truck affects how much air is entrained and that affects how long the vibrators need to do their job effectively.
Thanks again for taking the time to educate us 'sidewalk superintendents'! lol
Man, for an architectural finish to come out right, there are a lot of places for 'Mr. Murphy' to show his unwelcome face. I'll bet that even the time spent mixing the mud in the delivery truck affects how much air is entrained and that affects how long the vibrators need to do their job effectively.
Thanks again for taking the time to educate us 'sidewalk superintendents'! lol
landroversforever
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2011
- Messages
- 86
Fascinating as always. I love the tech on the concrete pouring that is in this thread.
Keep up the good work!
Keep up the good work!
SiGmA_X
Well-known member
It was a good read, thank you for the info LL! I know little about concrete, and learning more before I need to know anything is fantastic!Sorry for the long post but I thought some of you guys might be interested. Maybe in the future you guys should scroll down to see how long winded I'm going to be before you commit to reading the whole damn thing.
LLWillysfan, I've been enjoying your thread. Thanks for taking time to keep us undated. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that it will be fun to watch the next stages of the project. And I also wanted to say thanks for the primer on concrete forms. I didn't realize that the width of the form was not as critical as the height, but now it makes perfect sense after thinking about it.
It's been a long time ago since I worked for a house builder while I was in college, and we did our own concrete work. We always worried about a blowout, but fortunately never had one while I worked there. I spent a lot of time running a ******** up on the top of the basement forms, and learned the hard way that old wind up watches were no match for a ********, even when I took the watch off my wrist and put it in my pocket. They still died from the vibration!
Good luck with the rest of the project.
GGB
It's been a long time ago since I worked for a house builder while I was in college, and we did our own concrete work. We always worried about a blowout, but fortunately never had one while I worked there. I spent a lot of time running a ******** up on the top of the basement forms, and learned the hard way that old wind up watches were no match for a ********, even when I took the watch off my wrist and put it in my pocket. They still died from the vibration!
Good luck with the rest of the project.
GGB
HOTFR8
Banned
I bet you are keen to get back into the project.
Thedoc14
Well-known member
Love the Tech talk LL everybody is just taking it in and enjoying your commentary.
NOW more pictures,hahahah
NOW more pictures,hahahah
Thanks to all for the positive comments - just don't want anyone to get bored with the thread. We'll definitely be back to work this week. The work will be a bit slow as we pick our way through the architectural concrete and get up to speed with the ICF's.
There is a small mountain of ICF panels sitting in the yard and I've ordered structural steel, rebar and Lite Deck, which should be here in a few weeks. By that time we should be rolling.
We have used a similar system and I agree that they work very well. We got started with coil ties and will probably stick with them because of the appearance but also because it's what we have laying around.
If I was the suspicious type, I might think you were a closet concrete expert and just teeing up these softballs for me. This kind of concrete is nerve wracking because you only get one shot to get it perfect. If something goes wrong I'll have to look at it for the rest of my life or rip it out and redo it (which would ****). There's no fixing it.
The entrained air, which is created with an admixture to withstand freeze/thaw conditions is microscopic so it won't bother but entrapped air has to beaten out kicking and screaming with slow, methodical vibration.
I'm even going to the trouble of renting external vibrators that clamp to the formwork to shake even more air out.
The next time you hear from me we should be building forms and placing concrete and I promise to have pictures to share. I've also compiled some stats that I'll share on the build so far and what's ahead that you might find interesting.
There is a small mountain of ICF panels sitting in the yard and I've ordered structural steel, rebar and Lite Deck, which should be here in a few weeks. By that time we should be rolling.
We have used a similar system and I agree that they work very well. We got started with coil ties and will probably stick with them because of the appearance but also because it's what we have laying around.
If I was the suspicious type, I might think you were a closet concrete expert and just teeing up these softballs for me. This kind of concrete is nerve wracking because you only get one shot to get it perfect. If something goes wrong I'll have to look at it for the rest of my life or rip it out and redo it (which would ****). There's no fixing it.
The entrained air, which is created with an admixture to withstand freeze/thaw conditions is microscopic so it won't bother but entrapped air has to beaten out kicking and screaming with slow, methodical vibration.
I'm even going to the trouble of renting external vibrators that clamp to the formwork to shake even more air out.
The next time you hear from me we should be building forms and placing concrete and I promise to have pictures to share. I've also compiled some stats that I'll share on the build so far and what's ahead that you might find interesting.
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Cemoto
Well-known member
Here's to a smooth build
Regards,
Regards,
Thedoc14
Well-known member
Bulge and bubble free form work for you my friend.
Buzz Lightyear
Well-known member
Good to see you back on here updating what is one of my favourite threads*. 
*It is my favourite but I don't want to upset anyone.
*It is my favourite but I don't want to upset anyone.
Hottrod
Well-known member
Can't wait for some updates!
I have a question Mr Willlysfan,
I have looked at ICF's for a few years now. I believe you can not pour, a full 8-9ft story wall height in one go. (because the ICF's cant handle all that weight)
a) is this still true ? (despite some newer metal struts being available for support)
b) if then doing a half height pour, vibrate and then a 2nd pour, how do you deal with the 'cold joint' ?
I have heard of some solutions, but they were more opinions from builders who did not have much experience with ICF contruction, rather than a definative answer.
I live in London UK at the moment, but have property in Canada that I will build on one day. (Hence the name)
Thank you for posting your work. It really is kind of you to share, and I know quite a bit of work, when you have enough on your plate, with your company, work, building the house etc. Hats off to you sir...
I have looked at ICF's for a few years now. I believe you can not pour, a full 8-9ft story wall height in one go. (because the ICF's cant handle all that weight)
a) is this still true ? (despite some newer metal struts being available for support)
b) if then doing a half height pour, vibrate and then a 2nd pour, how do you deal with the 'cold joint' ?
I have heard of some solutions, but they were more opinions from builders who did not have much experience with ICF contruction, rather than a definative answer.
I live in London UK at the moment, but have property in Canada that I will build on one day. (Hence the name)
Thank you for posting your work. It really is kind of you to share, and I know quite a bit of work, when you have enough on your plate, with your company, work, building the house etc. Hats off to you sir...
Omphaloskeptic
Well-known member
"If I was the suspicious type, I might think you were a closet concrete expert and just teeing up these softballs for me."
LOL - I guess I've had just enough experience with concrete to be considered dangerous! I used to get 'volunteered' to mix mortar in a boat for my Grandfather who was a master mason, hold a chisel while we scored/split slabs of stone, carried a hod, loaded a hawk, carried brick and block, and generally stood around being 'young and dumb'. My only experience as an adult was forming/pouring/finishing a slab for a hot tub, and I built a chimney form in place to support a hand mixed/dyed/poured 'cap' with a generous drip edge. Gosh, that was fun carrying 5 gal. buckets of mud to the peak of a metal shingled roof! So, I guess I barely know enough about your craft to be in awe of how a big project such as yours is planned, prepared, and executed.
P.S. - Up until today, I didn't know there was a difference between 'entrained' and 'entrapped' air!
Really looking forward to your progress posts and here's hoping Mr. Murphy doesn't show his face on the job site.
LOL - I guess I've had just enough experience with concrete to be considered dangerous! I used to get 'volunteered' to mix mortar in a boat for my Grandfather who was a master mason, hold a chisel while we scored/split slabs of stone, carried a hod, loaded a hawk, carried brick and block, and generally stood around being 'young and dumb'. My only experience as an adult was forming/pouring/finishing a slab for a hot tub, and I built a chimney form in place to support a hand mixed/dyed/poured 'cap' with a generous drip edge. Gosh, that was fun carrying 5 gal. buckets of mud to the peak of a metal shingled roof! So, I guess I barely know enough about your craft to be in awe of how a big project such as yours is planned, prepared, and executed.
P.S. - Up until today, I didn't know there was a difference between 'entrained' and 'entrapped' air!
Really looking forward to your progress posts and here's hoping Mr. Murphy doesn't show his face on the job site.
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SiGmA_X
Well-known member
That thought has been going through my head all day. Hopefully by the time I'm home, we'll have a sweet update post!are you done yet ? are you done yet ? are you done yet ?
Hi Semi Cdn
I have finished with my basement a few months back and we used ICF, they did 1 pour of just over 10 foot "3.2m" and no blow out and it worked fine.
It depends on the system that you use, ours was "Reward ICF". I am also based on the UK Berkshire.
i just read basically all this thread. its one of the first of many i plan to look at as i just bought a new (used 1989) house and one car garage.
this is seriously impressive. the dock looks awesome.
i am an audiophile, and as i doubt most of the people around here are, i would say this type of house would be awesome for an infinite baffle subwoofer system. but thats just me being crazy to build a house around a speaker
ill keep my eyes here, because this amount of work is insane, and im sure very expensive.
awesome work to you and your crew.
-andy
this is seriously impressive. the dock looks awesome.
i am an audiophile, and as i doubt most of the people around here are, i would say this type of house would be awesome for an infinite baffle subwoofer system. but thats just me being crazy to build a house around a speaker
ill keep my eyes here, because this amount of work is insane, and im sure very expensive.
awesome work to you and your crew.
-andy
Bib Overalls
Well-known member
My computer has been in the shop for almost a week and I have been having significant problems adjusting. I got it back yesterday and one of the first places I surfed to was this thread. Imagine my disappointment when I discovered there were no new pictures. I have an appointment with my therapist tomorrow and we are going to talk about this. Do I send the bill to you or Ryan?
HOTFR8
Banned
I can save you the therapists money. Just sit back relax and be patient like the rest of us as I am sure we will see more soon.
Sorry guys. I thought I'd be posting photos by now showing actual work but there is a lot going on behind the scenes and we're getting very close to kicking this thing off again.
I've got a crew in the shop building form panels and I'm working on what seems like a thousand last minute details. I know I've said it before, but I should get my head examined for deciding it was a good idea to build a concrete house. I think you'll see what I mean as this thing unfolds in the coming weeks. Holy ****!
The crew should be on site tomorrow but I've got to take a road trip to pick up the Thermomass insulation and a high tech external ******** set up but I'll get some pics up Friday at the latest.
I've spent that last month beating out the details of the build and finally feel like I have my arms around what we are doing. I think you guys are going to enjoy the ride. Thanks for your continuing patience.
I've got a crew in the shop building form panels and I'm working on what seems like a thousand last minute details. I know I've said it before, but I should get my head examined for deciding it was a good idea to build a concrete house. I think you'll see what I mean as this thing unfolds in the coming weeks. Holy ****!
The crew should be on site tomorrow but I've got to take a road trip to pick up the Thermomass insulation and a high tech external ******** set up but I'll get some pics up Friday at the latest.
I've spent that last month beating out the details of the build and finally feel like I have my arms around what we are doing. I think you guys are going to enjoy the ride. Thanks for your continuing patience.
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Thedoc14
Well-known member
Your wife has the patience my friend, we can sit back and whip you from afar...
Looks like quite a project....
Since you have experience with concrete i wanted to ask a couple questions.
I am going to start building a 36X56 garage.. with 12-13 foot tall walls and had an idea of doing a tilt up type concrete panel.
The way i thought of doing it was forming the panel with expanded polystyrene on the bottom of the form attaching the foam and embedding galvanized furring strips by some type of mechanical fastener that would protrude up into the concrete that i would pour over it.
This way i can make sure the concrete finish is what i want.
The concrete would be the interior surface of the walls and the EPS with metal furring strips would be on the outside of the building.... which leads me to my next question.
Do you know any reason why i couldnt just attach a rain screen to the metal strips? and where can i find a good selection of rain screen material and what would be the going rate for it?
Hope thats not to many questions
Since you have experience with concrete i wanted to ask a couple questions.
I am going to start building a 36X56 garage.. with 12-13 foot tall walls and had an idea of doing a tilt up type concrete panel.
The way i thought of doing it was forming the panel with expanded polystyrene on the bottom of the form attaching the foam and embedding galvanized furring strips by some type of mechanical fastener that would protrude up into the concrete that i would pour over it.
This way i can make sure the concrete finish is what i want.
The concrete would be the interior surface of the walls and the EPS with metal furring strips would be on the outside of the building.... which leads me to my next question.
Do you know any reason why i couldnt just attach a rain screen to the metal strips? and where can i find a good selection of rain screen material and what would be the going rate for it?
Hope thats not to many questions
I have been registered on this site since 2010 but never posted. I basically registered so I could see the pictures from this build that is also modern: http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71002
Since I'm not yet ready to build anything I have not looked much on this site afterwards, keeping it as a bookmark for future reference when I'll start planning a garage.
Now I must say your house and garage are impressive and much more similar to something that could be built where I am (South Shore of Montreal and Northern Vermont on lake Champlain). Your garage/guest house section is a great idea for a future setup at the lake. Usually people get a big square garage with living quarters on the second floor, and eventually build a house or large cottage on the same lot. Your setup looks much better and could allow for a small guest house and huge garage and eventually only add the actual house later on.
I have read everything at once and I have not seen which ICF brand you'll be using? A lot of people here use Nudura.
Congrats on the project, it takes a lot of "courage" to build something other than stick here, the stick industry has a big lobby and market share and not many builders wants to touch anything else.
Since I'm not yet ready to build anything I have not looked much on this site afterwards, keeping it as a bookmark for future reference when I'll start planning a garage.
Now I must say your house and garage are impressive and much more similar to something that could be built where I am (South Shore of Montreal and Northern Vermont on lake Champlain). Your garage/guest house section is a great idea for a future setup at the lake. Usually people get a big square garage with living quarters on the second floor, and eventually build a house or large cottage on the same lot. Your setup looks much better and could allow for a small guest house and huge garage and eventually only add the actual house later on.
I have read everything at once and I have not seen which ICF brand you'll be using? A lot of people here use Nudura.
Congrats on the project, it takes a lot of "courage" to build something other than stick here, the stick industry has a big lobby and market share and not many builders wants to touch anything else.
sdimare
Member
Good stuff, temps in the single digits tonight and a Noreaster comin to Maine. Good luck! Just came across the thread, whats going in the garage?