The Concrete Underground

[ConCretin]

I'll warn you in advance that I'm stretching for content but didn't want to go too long without an update. It's basically me and a part time electrician. He's doing rough in and I'm rubbing concrete. Here'e the finished product in the back stair hall. It didn't come out too bad.



A also had the sheet metal guys in to run the ductwork for the range hood. This is what happens when you fail to plan and the HVAC guy get's there first. I used drop in anchors into the concrete beams within the LiteDeck floor system to make sure it doesn't come crashing down on my dinner.



Started another little project. This has bugged the hell out of me since I first saw the design. The stair stringers to the second floor intrude into the ceiling below, which would have required a sloped ceiling.



It might seem like a small detail but it's the details that matter. Here's a little sketch showing what I came up with. I figured I could fab up a frame out of 3 x 3 angle to replace a section of stringer.



Here's the framing in place. Voila, a flat ceiling.



Here's a view from the front. One nice benefit was that it gave me an excuse to fire up the plasma and Mig. Had the electrician wire them up in the future shop.

The back of the frame is supported by anchors into the concrete core in the ICF wall. I still need to figure out some hanging supports for the front.



I'm using a similar technique for some cantilevered stairs to the Guest Rm.



I actually hired a local engineer to check the numbers to make sure they didn't fall off the wall. $500 later and he put less rebar in than I would have if I hadn't asked.



They'll look something like this



Here's a shot of the cut out. We'll be drilling and epoxying 4, #3 bars per tread. My engineer calculated thet we'll get 1/16" deflection and suggested I build in a corresponding pitch so the stairs end up level. Yea, like I can place concrete to a 1/16" Geez.



Now come the part where I start stretching for content. I showed you the ice breakers last week. Well, it worked. Look Ma, no ice.



One nice thing about the spring thaw are all the little streams that start flowing. We can hear this one from all over the property.



Finally let me share some shots from around the house. Once the leaves come in you won't get some of these views so now's my chance.







Well that's all I got. I'll keep you up to speed as I work my way through my current projects. The garage doors are due in a couple weeks so we'll have something that is actually garage related. Some cool details to share with them too.

 

[jhelrey]

I like of like the detail with the stairs but it is also not my house. Nor would I be the one dusting the little cracks and crevices.

 

[GRN96WS6]

That place looks awesome.

 

[BeachBoy]

My engineer calculated thet we'll get 1/16" deflection and suggested I build in a corresponding pitch so the stairs end up level. Yea, like I can place concrete to a 1/16" Geez.

Ahahaha damn engineers!

The house looks awesome. You'll certainly get on freshome and contemporist... and Dwell.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[mikefromme]

Looks good, any reason you aren't using a wet grinder?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002HC2HU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[bdkw1]

One nice benefit was that it gave me an excuse to fire up the plasma and Mig. Had the electrician wire them up in the future shop.

Now that is progress!

 

[Shop101]

Incredible!! The house is solid, and it's surrounded by serenity. Excellent job!

 

[OHSCrifle]

Still my favorite project on here. So.. Questions

Kitchen hood: I thought a benefit of steel ribs in the ICF floor was to give attachment points for stuff underneath. Did you really have to use post installed concrete anchors? Does the duct have a big dent in it now?

Wood stair: Can you slip in a column made from steel angle under each side of your intermediate steel "stringer carrier"? If you keep one leg of the angle parallel to the hallway below the stair, and tuck the other leg "into" the wall framing, it looks like you could weld directly to that angle and pickup the added steel load.

I'm really surprised that concrete cantilever tread design needs only three #3 bars embedded six inches. Of course you don't know what a #3 bar is, do you?.. LOL so I presume you'll upsize.

 

[luke7734]

Love the updates. Ps.. never got even a peep out of you on the flag pole comments I made.. post #1979.. hope I didn't offend..

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[duggie]

"My engineer calculated thet we'll get 1/16" deflection and suggested I build in a corresponding pitch so the stairs end up level. Yea, like I can place concrete to a 1/16" Geez."

Engineers, geez !!!

Reminds me of an engineer requesting (and stressing) that a gravel road MUST BE within 1/4" of designed elevations ... until I pointed out that we are building a 200'-0" long road, with 2" dia stone and spreading it with a bulldozer with a 20'-0" wide blade ... wned:

1/4" tolerance would have been a miracle !!!!

 

[vette66bob]

Every one of your posts are amazing, from concept to reality,and your continuing hard work and effort toward completion. I have enjoyed every post and am looking forward to watching the conclusion.











to finish.

 

[Modern Jess]

Always happy to see an update on this project. Excellent work, and thanks for the post.

 

[-Brent-]

There's so much to look at in the pics.

Question on the "floating stairs" - are they formed by you guys or are they a purchased item? Also, how will they be finished?

As always, killer work.

Oh, and what does "rubbing concrete" mean?

 

[wssix99]

I'm using a similar technique for some cantilevered stairs to the Guest Rm.



I actually hired a local engineer to check the numbers to make sure they didn't fall off the wall. $500 later and he put less rebar in than I would have if I hadn't asked.



They'll look something like this



Here's a shot of the cut out. We'll be drilling and epoxying 4, #3 bars per tread. My engineer calculated thet we'll get 1/16" deflection and suggested I build in a corresponding pitch so the stairs end up level. Yea, like I can place concrete to a 1/16" Geez.

That's really cool. I would never have thought that detail could be achieved without some integral reinforcement in the wall. I wish I had known of this during my design!

I had to make some similar cutouts for repair of a damaged area of foam around our foundation. It looks like you'll need to remove some of the strips of concrete in between the last strips of ICF foam. I found that a small concrete chipper makes quick work of those small strips of concrete embedded with the foam? Since no large aggregate can get in those spaces, they chip right out along with the last bit of foam to leave a completely clean concrete surface.

 

[ConCretin]

so with the concrete fireplace, you can heat the whole thermal mass of the house by the fireplace and have all walls warm throughout the house?

The radiant heat will come primarily from the tubing in the slabs, which may work it's way up into the walls as well. We might also get a little solar heat storage from a couple of the walls positioned directly in front of glass walls.

Most gas fireplaces seem to be designed to minimize heat they radiate into the surrounding construction. I suspect it's going to be good for ambiance more than anything practical.

Looks good, any reason you aren't using a wet grinder?

I tried a Flex wet grinder but it made a heck of a mess and the water made it difficult to see what was happening with the surface. I've had great luck with the Bosch followed by a Festool sander that I converted to concrete grinding use.

Still my favorite project on here. So.. Questions

Kitchen hood: I thought a benefit of steel ribs in the ICF floor was to give attachment points for stuff underneath. Did you really have to use post installed concrete anchors? Does the duct have a big dent in it now?

Wood stair: Can you slip in a column made from steel angle under each side of your intermediate steel "stringer carrier"? If you keep one leg of the angle parallel to the hallway below the stair, and tuck the other leg "into" the wall framing, it looks like you could weld directly to that angle and pickup the added steel load.

I'm really surprised that concrete cantilever tread design needs only three #3 bars embedded six inches. Of course you don't know what a #3 bar is, do you?.. LOL so I presume you'll upsize.

The steel ribs in the LiteDeck are fine for supporting drywall and such but I'm uncomfortable relying on them for point loads like the exhaust hood, garage door tracks and openers, etc.

If I understand your description, I think we're on the same page on the stair framing. I'll post more pice as I go so feel free to keep the suggestions coming.

You know me too well when it comes to over engineering everything but in this case I am going to take the engineers suggestion and go with the #3 bar - there is a first time for everything

Love the updates. Ps.. never got even a peep out of you on the flag pole comments I made.. post #1979.. hope I didn't offend..

No worries luke7734. I didn't take offense at all. I actually thought I did reply - after a brief bout of flagpole envy of course

Question on the "floating stairs" - are they formed by you guys or are they a purchased item? Also, how will they be finished?

Oh, and what does "rubbing concrete" mean?

The floating stairs are formed in place and placed with ready mix concrete. I'm thinking about a very fine broom finish on the top so they aren't too slippery.

Rubbing refers to the process of grinding down all the fins and filling all the tie and air holes to get a uniform concrete surface.

I'll put up some pics of the process

That's really cool. I would never have thought that detail could be achieved without some integral reinforcement in the wall. I wish I had known of this during my design!

I had to make some similar cutouts for repair of a damaged area of foam around our foundation. It looks like you'll need to remove some of the strips of concrete in between the last strips of ICF foam. I found that a small concrete chipper makes quick work of those small strips of concrete embedded with the foam? Since no large aggregate can get in those spaces, they chip right out along with the last bit of foam to leave a completely clean concrete surface.

You are correct wssix99, it will be very important to remove all the foam, especially at the bottom of the treads.

Basically the floating steps are supported by the rebar epoxied to the concrete core in the top of each tread, which are in tension and the concrete in the bottom of the tread, which is in compression. Chunks of foam would compress and allow the tread to sag.

I actually cut a bevel into the foam at the bottom of each tread to increase the bearing surface and improve the 'leverage'.


Thanks again to everyone for the generous comments. This thread has made the whole process more enjoyable for me as well.

 

[luke7734]

I'm sure you'll end up outdoing me with the flagpole. . I just assumed the one on the dock was for "passer-bys" the real house pole I'm sure will have its own pendulum counterweight thing that hangs off the building or something crazy like that. Ooo.. or maybe it could retract into the building during high wind events... i know you've got something more up your sleeve..
That would also fit into the hidden evil lair vibe.. ps.. I still vote yes for the water wheel power alternative... harness that river for all it's worth!
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[OHSCrifle]

...
would never have thought that detail could be achieved without some integral reinforcement in the wall. I wish I had known of this during my design!

I'm sure these concrete walls are significantly reinforced

 

[wssix99]

I'm sure these concrete walls are significantly reinforced

I was talking about integral reinforcement in the wall to specifically to support the stairs. (Not just pins.)

Epoxy isn't what it used to be...

 

[JordonMusser]

I wish my concrete contractor was a smart as you!

 

[LCG]

Sorry if I missed it but are your windows tinted?

 

[JarheadBoom]

So I stumbled on to this EPIC thread about a week ago, and have made it to page 20 (of 53 pages, with my settings - I just finished reading about dewatering the garage lift pit) so far.

This is absolutely incredible! I've always been fascinated by construction work, machinery, etc., and to not only see pictures of it all, but have detailed, professional-level commentary and explanation of what we're seeing is (in my experience) pretty much unparalleled.

Can't wait to work my way through the rest of this!

 

[NUTTSGT]

The place is really starting to come together Doug. I imagine this Spring & Summer will bring nicer weather and a trove of finished projects.

 

[signcrafter]

I love any updates!

I for one love reading about all the little details and how you do things. From running the wires and plumbing to stairs to anything! This whole process has been non stop amazement for me. I like little details and seeing how you do things. So post away with what ever you have! Even if it's just installing an outlet and the process of running the wire and mounting the box and whatnot. It's all interesting to me.

 

[ConCretin]

A couple buddies showed up this weekend to help me build the formwork for the cantilevered concrete staircase. We started out by building bents to support each tread. I could have saved a little lumber with a different shoring design but I wanted to be able to adjust each tread individually.



to determine the height of each bent, we just measured down from our reference line to a plate on the floor. I subtracted a 1/4" from the outside leg of the bent to allow for any irregularities in the floor. it's easier to shim than cut.



After a few hours, the bents were all set.



Meanwhile, another buddy was building forms for the treads themselves.



We're using left over MDO plywood for a smooth finish.



You'll notice we angled the face of the riser inward. This is pretty typical in commercial construction. It gives you an extra inch of tread.



Before I started setting the tread forms, I had a couple of details to attend to. The first was to cut a bevel into the foam to increase the contact area the tread concrete below the rebar from 4" to 6". I used a little leftover grout to create a smooth transition.



Next I carefully cleaned the holes I drilled for the epoxied bars. This is obviously a critical detail so I wanted to make sure it was done correctly. I used compressed air and a homemade brush to thoroughly clean the holes. They make brushes specifically for this purpose but I didn't have one so I welded a handle on a 1/2" plumbers brush



Next I started setting the tread forms. Our previous careful measuring paid off and everything fit very well and resulted in a very consistent rise of 7 1/16"



After setting each tread, I'd caulk the joints to ensure a clean finish and then epoxied in the rebar. I'm using Hilti HIT HY 150, a premium product.



Here's a shot of a couple of the first treads. I straighten the rebar out once the epoxy sets.



We're obviously placing a great deal of faith in the epoxy to keeps these stairs from falling off the wall but long experience in very critical applications has convinced me that if you install it properly, the stuff works.



Meanwhile in the garage, we're installing blocking for the overhead doors. These doors are mostly glass and as such are very heavy. To be honest I don't know the specific load bearing capacity of the steel channels in the LiteDeck but I'm more comfortable relying on the concrete beams. We carved out the foam and tapcon'ed blocking directly to the beams. We then screwed 3/4" plywood to the blocking flush with the metal strapping. With this arrangement, I'm confident the doors will be well supported.



In addition to blocking for the tracks, we installed a similar set up for the opener.



In addition to the 18' door for the garage, there is a 9' door to the shop. An overhead door would interfere with the lift and the bridge crane so we're converting it to a sliding door. It needs blocking to accommodate the track.

This door will look like an overhead door from the outside but slide. I'll need to maintain a space behind any benches or equipment I place on this wall but it shouldn't be much of a problem. This door is not for daily use so an opener isn't necessary.

The framing with the rigid insulation you see in the photos are just the temp enclosures we built to keep the weather out.



The overhead doors are due in a week. If I can get the aprons poured, I'll finally have usable opening for moving materials in and out.

All in all, a pretty good weekend. the weathers finally breaking and with it comes increased urgency to get this thing done. Hopefully you'll see an increase in the quantity and quality of updates as we bring her home. Cheers everyone.

 

[Bib Overalls]

Concrete formed to a 1/16" tolerance. That is impressive.

Am I correct in assuming the sliding garage door will be suspended from above and not run on a track bellow? Interested in seeing the details on that; latching, weather sealing, etc.

 

[ConCretin]

I was talking about integral reinforcement in the wall to specifically to support the stairs. (Not just pins.)

Epoxy isn't what it used to be...

We probably could have figured out a way to get some rebar into the ICF's but it would have been complicated plus we didn't know we were going to use this stair detail. Unlike more products that have become less effective due do environmental concerns, modern epoxies are better than ever.

I wish my concrete contractor was a smart as you!

I appreciate the comment but a smart concrete contractor would have built this thing out of wood.

Sorry if I missed it but are your windows tinted?

Yes they are LCG - They have a grey tint. We face due west and the afternoon sun can be brutal. It helps with the sun but it's not particularly noticeable from the inside. It's one of our better decisions.

So I stumbled on to this EPIC thread about a week ago, and have made it to page 20 (of 53 pages, with my settings - I just finished reading about dewatering the garage lift pit) so far.

Can't wait to work my way through the rest of this!

Welcome aboard JarheadBoom. Glad you're enjoying the thread.

The place is really starting to come together Doug. I imagine this Spring & Summer will bring nicer weather and a trove of finished projects.

I hope so Nutts, I hope so.

 

[ConCretin]

I for one love reading about all the little details and how you do things. From running the wires and plumbing to stairs to anything! This whole process has been non stop amazement for me. I like little details and seeing how you do things. So post away with what ever you have! Even if it's just installing an outlet and the process of running the wire and mounting the box and whatnot. It's all interesting to me.

I'll do my best Signcrafter. Thanks for the positive comments

Concrete formed to a 1/16" tolerance. That is impressive.

Am I correct in assuming the sliding garage door will be suspended from above and not run on a track bellow? Interested in seeing the details on that; latching, weather sealing, etc.

I haven't achieved 1/16" tolerance yet Bib. I'll let you know how it comes out after the concrete hits the forms.

You are correct on the sliding door - it hangs from a track similar to a barn door except it's on the inside so it looks like an overhead door.

I'll be sure to post all the details

 

[NUTTSGT]

Here's a shot of a couple of the first treads. I straighten the rebar out once the epoxy sets.

When you straighten the rebar out, will tie tie in a short piece across these to hold them in the same plane and as extra strength ?

 

[ConCretin]

When you straighten the rebar out, will tie tie in a short piece across these to hold them in the same plane and as extra strength ?

Yes. I'll also use chairs to make sure the bars stay at the proper height. They make plastic tipped chairs that you can't see when you strip the bottom formwork.

 

[jimmie jam]

Very impressive indeed! I'm guessing that you're using light weight concrete on the steps. Is there a reason why you're not using 3800 "jackshaft" door operators for you doors? You could then run the doors within 6" of the ceiling, especially in the shop. Keep up the great updates!

 

[slickgt1]

I have the same hilti epoxy gun. Only thing that drives me crazy is if you start working, and then pause, that tip is done for. Always wanted to ask someone how they protect the mixing tip.

And I agree, that epoxy is insane. I installed a retractable sunshade, hanging on 10 hilti expanding anchors, in less than ideal brick. I used the kit with the mesh insert on that one. Hilti really does make premium products, at a premium price.

 

[ConCretin]

Is there a reason why you're not using 3800 "jackshaft" door operators for you doors? You could then run the doors within 6" of the ceiling, especially in the shop. Keep up the great updates!

It's kinda complicated. I've only got 10' of headroom (I'm depending on a 10x10 skylight to gain enough headroom for the lift) so even if I get the door tight to the ceiling, it interferes with the lift. Also I can't roll the bridge crane past the track and I really want to be able to pick items out of the bed of a truck withput having to back all the way in. Thanks for the thought though.

Actually I'm not using lightweight concrete. I'm placing the stairs as part of a larger pour and I'd have to order an extra truck. It would save about 25 lb per tread but the design anticipates regular weight concrete so we should be OK.

I have the same hilti epoxy gun. Only thing that drives me crazy is if you start working, and then pause, that tip is done for. Always wanted to ask someone how they protect the mixing tip.

I'm right there with ya. At $30+ per tube, you want to make sure you have enough holes ready to use it all. The worst thing that can happen is that you go for one more hole and run out mid way. You either abandon that hole or go for a whole new unit. Arghhh

 

[BeachBoy]

edit: answered

 

[wssix99]

Funny how it can take more wood to create the forms than to make the entire stair out of wood in the first place! Fortunately, I expect there will be many opportunities to re-use the wood after the forms are no longer needed.

 

[JordonMusser]

Stairs are gonna be sweet. How do you make the concrete stick to the already poured concrete? or does the rebar do the trick?


door Q- What latching mechanism does it use to keep it closed?

 

[Tyberius]

I've been keeping up with this thread, but realized I had never posted in it. No questions or suggestions, but only praise and the hope that the good weather means good progress.

Thanks for the effort to post your progress to the forum. Everything looks great!

 

[JordonMusser]

What does your door use to latch shut?

 

[ConCretin]

It's been awhile since I've been able to say this but we're placing concrete tomorrow morning at 7 am. We're starting with 2 cy of 3/8, 4000 with no air for the interior concrete. This includes the cantilevered stairs;



You'll notice some planks extending from the temp wood stairs over to the ICF wall. I don't want to say that concrete guys are hefty but I didn't build the forms to take a lot of live load and concrete guys do provide plenty of that.

Here's a shot of the completed treads.



We are also placing the mantel and hearth at the TV/Fireplace wall;



The mantel form shows my version of post tensioning. When we built the wall I installed sleeves for 1/2" threaded rods, which I'll tighten before stripping the forms. This has proved to be ridiculous overkill - I could have drilled and epoxied bars - but I committed myself months ago.



Here's a shot of larger hearth section.



I had a close call on the fireplace controller. I installed a typical 2 x 4 box to house this unit, which is essentially the manual on/off switch for the gas fireplace. At the last minute, I asked my wife to go on-line and see what the owner's manual said. She noticed that the manual indicated that the mfg provides the junction box. This raised enough of a concern to break into the pallet containing the fireplace. Sure enough the controller requires a very deep box and the one that I had installed in my 4000 psi AC hearth was a bit short;



This would have been a serious pain in the @ss if we hadn't caught it. The box provided by the mfg wouldn't work because it had a completely open back, which would obviously have allowed it to fill with concrete - not the solution I was looking for. Once again my lovely and very bright wife suggested a solution. Why not just tape em together. So we did. We just trimmed off all the unnecessary plastic and used duct tape to create an extra deep box.



Before anyone gets too excited, remember this just for low voltage control wiring so I doubt I broke any life safety codes. Here's the box installed complete with skull themed duct tape - it was a joke gift but all I had on hand.



We're also placing a couple little steps between the house and garage elevations;



Next comes 9.5 cy of 4000, 3/4" with air for some exterior concrete. We started most of this last fall and hoped to place it then, but winter landed with a thud and never let up til now. First up is the main entry platform. You'll notice a couple more of our patented light buckets for future up lights.

Don't tell anybody but i drilled a hole in the Symons form to extend the conduit out for future path lights. I'd give the guys hell for the lack of planning and for ruining a form panel but we'll keep my transgression between us.



We are also placing the front entry stairs. You can't see them from this angle but we've installed boxes for step lights similar to those in the dock stairs. Never know when you might need a well lit trail from boat to house.



These are the stairs down to the path to the dock. You can see the lights from this angle.



Here's a little apron leading into the basement area. One thing I forgot when we were doing the foundation and slabs is a water line to the dock. I managed to snake it through the entry pad thereby avoiding having it come through the basement wall above grade and being exposed to view.



Since I'll drain this line each fall, I don't need to worry about getting it below frost. I figure I'll install a valve within the heated space and probably a fitting to allow me to blow it out.



We're also going to place the aprons in front of the garage doors. The purpose of this detail is to move the thermal break for the radiantly heated garage slabs inside the garage doors so I haven't got 12" of heated slab sticking out into the cold.



I'll let you know how the placement goes.

 

[ConCretin]

Stairs are gonna be sweet. How do you make the concrete stick to the already poured concrete? or does the rebar do the trick?


door Q- What latching mechanism does it use to keep it closed?

JM, the rebar does all the work. I like these stairs because they illustrate the properties and capacity of reinforced concrete in a mind blowing way.

The rebar at the top of the tread is in tension, which as you know, steel excels at. The bottom of the tread is in compression, which is where concrete shines. As long as both materials do their job the treads stay put.

The pivot door has an integral closer that pulls the door shut though it does require a light push to overcome the weather stripping. There is a dead bolt of sorts to secure it. There is no typical latch. Sorta different but it seems to work fine.

 

[Bib Overalls]

Duct tape to the rescue again. Civilization, as we know it, can not survive without the stuff.

Any estimate as to when you will be able to get back on your Willys project?