The Craftsman debacle

[Moose97]

This post is not intended to stir up a pro/anti Craftsman debate. I have been reading old posts all afternoon (too dang hot to be outside) and I am really curious about something and i'm sure that this is the right place to get the answer. If my desire was to buy American made only, what tool brand would be comparable to Craftsman as far as price, ease of purchase and return, and overall large scale selection (you can basically get it all)? I'm talking more about a DIY'ers point of view, not someone wrenching for a living. If I made a living with them I would want the top of the line as well. Just curious...

 

[jmm]

There's no one brand like Craftsman used to be, if you want brand new tools -- not used, not NOS. Your next closest bet is SK. They're higher quality, US made, but they carry a higher price tag.

 

[zkling]

If my desire was to buy American made only, what tool brand would be comparable to Craftsman as far as price, ease of purchase and return, and overall large scale selection (you can basically get it all)?

And there in lies the problem, there really isn't. That is one of the many reasons I am POed at sears for doing this. Most of the USA made tools left aren't being aimed at the hobby/diy market. I think HF pushed them to find cheaper (overseas) manufactures.

Homedepot --> Husky --> Use to be USA, now offshore, local, affordable, easy to exchange

Lowes--> Kobalt --> Use to be USA, now offshore 95%, local, affordable, easy to exchange

Stanley --> Use to be USA, now offshore, local, affordable, easy to exchange

I think you might be able to get Allen USA stuff resonably if you have a menards local, but I am not sure. I don't frequent menards very often. And have no clue as to the warranty policy.

Brands like SK, Armstrong, Proto, Wright, Williams, are a bit cheaper then the truck brands, but not nearly as cheap as USA craftsman is/was nor are they as accessable (mostly sold at industrial supply places like Grainger, Fastenall, etc). I have heard the warranty process can be a bit sketchy at times.

If you do find a brand to replace Craftsman with the same benefits that they provided, I would love to hear about it.

 

[SMKS]

Menards offers lots of USA-made hand tools under their Masterforce house brand. They're pretty well priced, especially when on sale.

EDIT - I realize some members won't have access to Menards, but it's just another option to add to the list.

 

[Nanashi]

Why not just buy craftsman? In my opinion the local Sears exchanging your broken tools makes craftsman a great choice. It would be great if seats carried SK as their premium brand or something. It seems like SK is really pushing their made in the USA stamp for all it's worth. SK is a top quality tool priced between craftsman and truck brand in my opinion.

 

[zkling]

Why not just buy craftsman?

Most stores in larger areas are ~90+% china stuff by now. Unless you happen to need one of the extremely un common tools like 3/4" drive stuff.

My local store is attached to a mall and is thus pretty busy, ~99% of the stuff is china now. If I want to buy a china tool I might as well go to harborfreight or lowes or homedepot and purchase it for a much lower cost than sears. And before anyone says, "It's just a COO stamp difference, nothing else" I ask you to go look at the USA vs China RP wrenches. Please lets not have this debate AGAIN.

 

[foreverfalcon40]

Go visit your local Sears, some of them still have a decent amount of USA stock compared to others. With HF moving very close to one of my local Sears the USA stock is overwelming. Also don't be afraid to move the new COO China brands out of the way b/c the good stuff is what lays behind in some cases.

The only downfall is when something breaks you are out in the open. I only broke one Cman tool in my 6 year career to owner's abuse. Chrome finish extension on an Impact gun. Industrial Impact sockets, Chrome non raised panel sockets have held their ground with no sogns of giving up and have paid for themselves many times over.

Even if you are a DIY'er there are some tools that are invalubale "off the truck".

 

[jjjrmx5]

Menards offers lots of USA-made hand tools under their Masterforce house brand. They're pretty well priced, especially when on sale.

But that puts you back into the question, should a warranty be needed, 6 months or 6 years down the line, I highly doubt the warranty and the retailer itself will still be around.

If so, I'm dubious of the quality matching what they sell today.

There really is no single source nor solution any more IMHO.

Not from what I have seen.

 

[devoncoolman]

There really isn't any usa brands that are affordable and super easy to warranty like craftsman. Sk is pretty much your best bet. They are of better quality than craftsman is and was. But there are no local stores that i know of that carry them. So online buying is your only option and warranty through the manufacturer it self is pretty much it.

 

[cburnscrx]

But that puts you back into the question, should a warranty be needed, 6 months or 6 years down the line, I highly doubt the warranty and the retailer itself will still be around.

If so, I'm dubious of the quality matching what they sell today.

There really is no single source nor solution any more IMHO.

Not from what I have seen.

I think it's pretty safe to say Menards will still be around in 6 years. Actually they're in a better position financially than Sears.

 

[plinker]

But that puts you back into the question, should a warranty be needed, 6 months or 6 years down the line, I highly doubt the warranty and the retailer itself will still be around.

If so, I'm dubious of the quality matching what they sell today.
There really is no single source nor solution any more IMHO.
Not from what I have seen.

I doubt Menards would go out, but then anything is possible nowadays.

More then likely they'll change brands, like they did from Allen to Masterforce.
Essentially they are the same tool. I did have to warranty out a 3/4 to 1/2 adapter that a co-worker broke, no issue's.

My advise is diversify what brands you buy and pick up a particular brands strong point tools. There's alot that can be had for a reasonable price if you shop around. If time is on your side, so much the better.

 

[dirtmister16]

staying usa, sk is your first stop before going into other industrial/pro/truck brands.

going to offshore id say gearwrench. i hate to say but i think they have sears/craftsman market about taken or will have it. i like there tools and they seem to do well. i only own the ratcheting wrenches myself and am impressed not one broken ever. ive seen alot of people on here buy the sockets ect. seem to hold up well.

 

[CWP1616L]

If my desire was to buy American made only, what tool brand would be comparable to Craftsman as far as price, ease of purchase and return, and overall large scale selection (you can basically get it all)?

That would be SK, but forget about the ease of return part; you'll have mail the ones you have problems with back to SK.

 

[jjjrmx5]

I think it's pretty safe to say Menards will still be around in 6 years. Actually they're in a better position financially than Sears.

Menards may be around, but what they sell in 2 years much less 6, I dunno.

Ace hdwre is longest lasting go-to that I know that actually will stock USA stuff as well as order you in what you need.
But they can be pricey.

I've been through Builder's Square, HQ/Home Quarters, Contractor's Warehouse and another half dozen adnauseum. All gonzo. Done. Sold out.


There is NO guaranteed local retailer that can guarantee longevity. None.

THAT, I assure you.

Menards and TSC may work well in rural locations , but in high competition urban areas, likely not so much.

Caveot Emptor.

 

[Fedwrench]

Simply put there isn't another US Made brand that offers the selection, pennies on the piece pricing, and easy forever warranty that Sears Craftsman once offered. that explains why soo many are pissed and may also explain Craftsman's downfall. US made Craftsman had a great run though.

I know many here recommend Menards but, they're not a national chain and with many of their tools being rebadged Allen tools, I wonder how long it will be before they too are asian made. Once upon a time, Danaher produced NAPA, Allen, Armstrong, Craftsman, and others all in the USA. Then along came Apex tool group and things changed.

 

[devoncoolman]

I think it's pretty safe to say Menards will still be around in 6 years. Actually they're in a better position financially than Sears.

This is true. I would be more worried about sears going out of business and craftsman dissapearing.

 

[CWP1616L]

There's lots of great American made tools still available. They may cost a little more than Craftsman, but the quality is better too.

 

[trout]

You can hope you have a local SK dealer if you want to keep the ease of exchange, but your best value for a DIYer now seems to be Kobalt.

Yeah it's not USA made, but Lowe's has good customer service, a huge selection, better hours than Sears, most of the time it's closer, and it's better quality than the Chinese made Craftsman ****.

 

[murphaayyy]

i honestly dont get why people get sooooooooooooooooooooooo caught up on COO and try to go for american only... i would use and do use taiwan tools, french, german, and american (maybe more not sure). probably some china in their but not much i will say

all im gonna say is i have a friend who is an ASE cert. state inspector who owns a lot of HF (sockets, air tools, hand tools, etc. little bit of everything) and he wore cars out no problem. he is one of the few techs i know that is not in the least embarrassed to own anything the isnt a truck brand. he wore cars out better than people i see WITH truck brands (my self included as i dont have half the experience he does and i prob own more snap on/high dollar tools than he does lol).

you need to really research the marginal benefit vs marginal cost. i think it will help you out in the long run.

 

[Farmall450]

And there in lies the problem, there really isn't. That is one of the many reasons I am POed at sears for doing this. Most of the USA made tools left aren't being aimed at the hobby/diy market. I think HF pushed them to find cheaper (overseas) manufactures.

Homedepot --> Husky --> Use to be USA, now offshore, local, affordable, easy to exchange

Lowes--> Kobalt --> Use to be USA, now offshore 95%, local, affordable, easy to exchange

Stanley --> Use to be USA, now offshore, local, affordable, easy to exchange

I think you might be able to get Allen USA stuff resonably if you have a menards local, but I am not sure. I don't frequent menards very often. And have no clue as to the warranty policy.

Brands like SK, Armstrong, Proto, Wright, Williams, are a bit cheaper then the truck brands, but not nearly as cheap as USA craftsman is/was nor are they as accessable (mostly sold at industrial supply places like Grainger, Fastenall, etc). I have heard the warranty process can be a bit sketchy at times.

If you do find a brand to replace Craftsman with the same benefits that they provided, I would love to hear about it.

Farm & Fleet has Allen USA as well. Better prices often. For all your pliers,
Channellock is your best bet for affordable US made.

 

[Farmall450]

Menards offers lots of USA-made hand tools under their Masterforce house brand. They're pretty well priced, especially when on sale.

Not their pliers

 

[Stephenw]

Are you guys sure Allen tools are USA made?

I know they used to be, but I think that might have changed. There is an industrial hardware store local to me that is an Allen dealer. I could swear I saw "made in China" on several Allen tools I looked at.

 

[CWP1616L]

i honestly dont get why people get sooooooooooooooooooooooo caught up on COO and try to go for american only... i would use and do use taiwan tools, french, german, and american (maybe more not sure). probably some china in their but not much i will say

all im gonna say is i have a friend who is an ASE cert. state inspector who owns a lot of HF (sockets, air tools, hand tools, etc. little bit of everything) and he wore cars out no problem. he is one of the few techs i know that is not in the least embarrassed to own anything the isnt a truck brand. he wore cars out better than people i see WITH truck brands (my self included as i dont have half the experience he does and i prob own more snap on/high dollar tools than he does lol).

you need to really research the marginal benefit vs marginal cost. i think it will help you out in the long run.

You're missing the segment between HF and truck brands:

The American made industrial brands.

 

[allinon72]

Older Allen is USA along with some new stuff. Most of the Allen stuff at Menards has been on the shelf a long time. Their USA Masterforce is the same thing and solid. However, they never put the good stuff on sale and they've cut back on their made in the USA sale. Probably because they don't have enough products to fill the ad.

 

[theoldwizard1]

There's lots of great American made tools still available. They may cost a little more than Craftsman, but the quality is better too.

Name 2 !

The Made in America ones I have found are a LOT more expensive than Craftsman.

Craftsman Industrial is intriguing. Made in America, but NOT carried by Sears (at least in general), so the warranty is through your retailer and the prices are a lot more than the standard Craftsman brand.

 

[basspro]

Every tool I see at Fleet Farm that says ALLEN is USA! Masterforce sockets and ratchest as well as wrenches and screwdrivers are USA. Im glad I bought Craftsman when I did, now its flea market for USA anything. I buy ALLEN, Masterforce, Channelock, Klein, Snap-On, when I need stuff now, which isnt too often anymore.

 

[CWP1616L]

Name 2 !

The Made in America ones I have found are a LOT more expensive than Craftsman.

Craftsman Industrial is intriguing. Made in America, but NOT carried by Sears (at least in general), so the warranty is through your retailer and the prices are a lot more than the standard Craftsman brand.

SK is probably a little more money than Craftsman; after that you're getting into the American made industrial brands.

 

[Moose97]

i honestly dont get why people get sooooooooooooooooooooooo caught up on COO and try to go for american only... i would use and do use taiwan tools, french, german, and american (maybe more not sure). probably some china in their but not much i will say

all im gonna say is i have a friend who is an ASE cert. state inspector who owns a lot of HF (sockets, air tools, hand tools, etc. little bit of everything) and he wore cars out no problem. he is one of the few techs i know that is not in the least embarrassed to own anything the isnt a truck brand. he wore cars out better than people i see WITH truck brands (my self included as i dont have half the experience he does and i prob own more snap on/high dollar tools than he does lol).

you need to really research the marginal benefit vs marginal cost. i think it will help you out in the long run.

Don't get me wrong, this post is not intended to be taken as a bash Craftsman or foreign made tools. I own mostly Craftsman myself. I just know that for a lot of folks buying American is important. If all things are equal, I would rather buy American myself. I'll even pay a little more to do it. The problem is that they are just so stinkin' easy to get (Craftsman)!

 

[treimers]

I think it's pretty safe to say Menards will still be around in 6 years. Actually they're in a better position financially than Sears.

That works if you're in in Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, Wisconsin and Wyoming, where they have locations.
Apparently, if you're within 75 miles of the Great Lakes, you can't run off the road without hitting one

But if you're in the West, the SouthWest, the South, the East Coast, and far Northern areas, which is three-fourths of the country, there are no Menards stores.

Only being in 14 out of 50 states leaves them out of the count for
probably 50% of the population, when you consider that they haven't even touched the Northeast in the nearly 50 years they've been in business?


If they haven't expanded outside the northern end of the Midwest in
half a century, I'm not holding my breath that they're
going to have stores throughout the country
in the next 10 years.

Obviously, that's their choice, but it does mean that I cannot buy American in their locations without a significant amount of gas money going into the deal.
(and I prefer buying what I can touch, when it comes to tools)

 

[Deadhead]

i honestly dont get why people get sooooooooooooooooooooooo caught up on COO and try to go for american only... i would use and do use taiwan tools, french, german, and american (maybe more not sure). probably some china in their but not much i will say

all im gonna say is i have a friend who is an ASE cert. state inspector who owns a lot of HF (sockets, air tools, hand tools, etc. little bit of everything) and he wore cars out no problem. he is one of the few techs i know that is not in the least embarrassed to own anything the isnt a truck brand. he wore cars out better than people i see WITH truck brands (my self included as i dont have half the experience he does and i prob own more snap on/high dollar tools than he does lol).

you need to really research the marginal benefit vs marginal cost. i think it will help you out in the long run.

I too don't understand the COO concept sometimes. Why is it ok to have a drawer full of knipex pliers from Germany but you get slammed by the masses for buying something made in Taiwan from HF. Why is that everyone loves their IR W7150 20v cordless impact that owns one but nobody ever brings up the fact it's china. Sears (and others) went to china for one reason and one reason only.....profit. Blaming HF for them and others for following suit is a stretch. There is very little pride left in corporate America.
Thanks to corporate greed I now own a craftsman 1/2" breaker bar made in china, that was warrantied for my 25 year old American made one that I broke Friday. I could go own but my foot is hurting really bad from kicking the deadhorse.

 

[SMKS]

But that puts you back into the question, should a warranty be needed, 6 months or 6 years down the line, I highly doubt the warranty and the retailer itself will still be around.

If so, I'm dubious of the quality matching what they sell today.

There really is no single source nor solution any more IMHO.

Not from what I have seen.

Menards will still be around, most likely. They're in good shape.

But, you could make your argument about any brand that anyone recommends in this thread.

And, Menards is one of the very few big box stores that is big on promoting USA made products. They clearly identify USA made items in their ads and stores and even have "USA sales" that specifically highlight and promote USA made items. If a big box store is going to keep USA made tools, it's probably Menards.

 

[Pumpman1968]

Name 2 !

The Made in America ones I have found are a LOT more expensive than Craftsman.

Craftsman Industrial is intriguing. Made in America, but NOT carried by Sears (at least in general), so the warranty is through your retailer and the prices are a lot more than the standard Craftsman brand.

Williams USA bought through toolsdelivered.com is VERY competitive and there is A LOT of NOS S-K and Wright that can sometimes be had for a song. Don't worry so much about the return policy..........use the right tool for the job and these tools will literally last a lifetime in the hands of a DIYer or weekender.

Edit: I think that's 3

 

[CWP1616L]

I too don't understand the COO concept sometimes. Why is it ok to have a drawer full of knipex pliers from Germany but you get slammed by the masses for buying something made in Taiwan from HF.

The Germans are quality conscious people and they're not afraid to charge good money for their quality products. The Chinese and the Taiwanese will make whatever level of quality you want; usually in the lower quality category. Whatever it takes to make a buck; they don't give a damn.

 

[Ign]

x4 on Menards not being everywhere. I've never seen one, much less stepped foot in one. We ARE getting a TSC, supposed to be open the end of this month. But I'm not hoping for tools, just hoping the local ag store shapes up because they'll finally have some competition.

Why are people so concerned with SK warranty? Are you breaking that many SK tools? I've done stuff to my SK ratcheting wrenches which SHOULD have broken them, but didn't. How many things are you really going to be returning in a year, and of those how many can you really not live without for a couple weeks? I mean things like wrenches don't we all have at least two of each size? I don't get the apparent "fear" over warranty issues via mail.

 

[e-tek]

i honestly dont get why people get sooooooooooooooooooooooo caught up on COO and try to go for american only... i would use and do use taiwan tools, french, german, and american (maybe more not sure). probably some china in their but not much i will say

all im gonna say is i have a friend who is an ASE cert. state inspector who owns a lot of HF (sockets, air tools, hand tools, etc. little bit of everything) and he wore cars out no problem. he is one of the few techs i know that is not in the least embarrassed to own anything the isnt a truck brand. he wore cars out better than people i see WITH truck brands (my self included as i dont have half the experience he does and i prob own more snap on/high dollar tools than he does lol).

you need to really research the marginal benefit vs marginal cost. i think it will help you out in the long run.

I too don't understand the COO concept sometimes. Why is it ok to have a drawer full of knipex pliers from Germany but you get slammed by the masses for buying something made in Taiwan from HF. Why is that everyone loves their IR W7150 20v cordless impact that owns one but nobody ever brings up the fact it's china. Sears (and others) went to china for one reason and one reason only.....profit. Blaming HF for them and others for following suit is a stretch. There is very little pride left in corporate America.
Thanks to corporate greed I now own a craftsman 1/2" breaker bar made in china, that was warrantied for my 25 year old American made one that I broke Friday. I could go own but my foot is hurting really bad from kicking the deadhorse.

C'mon you guys - there are MUCH larger issues at play. Do some reading on this forum and others, as well as on sites dedicated to Made In America. Equating buying Knipex pliers Made in Germany to US tool companies having their stuff made in China is not the same issue.

Even as a Canadian I know how important it is to support US-made products.

 

[SMKS]

I too don't understand the COO concept sometimes. Why is it ok to have a drawer full of knipex pliers from Germany but you get slammed by the masses for buying something made in Taiwan from HF.

Some of the country of origin nerds like to buy things from first world countries or at least developed countires. That often means higher quality and it increases the chances that the workers were paid fair wages and aren't subject to human rights abuses.

And, for a variety of quality, political, economic and human rights reasons, China is to be avoided if possible by many country of origin nerds.

If you were up on the COO nerdery on this forum you'd realize that many of us don't really mind buying Taiwanese products. They're often higher quality than Chinese products and Taiwan doesn't have the same economic, human rights and political issues that China has.

Why is that everyone loves their IR W7150 20v cordless impact that owns one but nobody ever brings up the fact it's china.

Cordless tools and electronics are basically a lost cause for COO nerds. There's almost nothing available that's produced in first world countries, or at least basically nothing that a DIY'er could ever afford.

So, even if you're a COO nerd, you're basically stuck with Chinese cordless tools.

 

[SMKS]

That would be SK, but forget about the ease of return part; you'll have mail the ones you have problems with back to SK.

Not true, if you have any dealers in your area.

Same with all the industrial brands. You'll be using mail-in warranty unless you have local dealers.

 

[NC-Fordguy]

Menards will still be around, most likely. They're in good shape.

Menards is a privately held company so they don't have to release financial reports to the public.

I'd be interested since you say they are in good shape, where can one locate P&L's for review.

If they do continue to expand, plenty of shuttered home depot locations around here for them to move into. I'd like to see what they are all about in person

 

[CWP1616L]

Not true, if you have any dealers in your area.

Same with all the industrial brands. You'll be using mail-in warranty unless you have local dealers.

I have local dealers for Proto and Armstrong, but nothing SK.

 

[murphaayyy]

Don't get me wrong, this post is not intended to be taken as a bash Craftsman or foreign made tools. I own mostly Craftsman myself. I just know that for a lot of folks buying American is important. If all things are equal, I would rather buy American myself. I'll even pay a little more to do it. The problem is that they are just so stinkin' easy to get (Craftsman)!

I see where your coming from, and have heard it before (buying american is important). i dont fully understand, but i can see the pride in owning all american tools or just the overall interest and love for tools which i can appreciate. i know your first post said you arnt trying to stir anything up so i apologize if my post was a little emotional. if you really want american and will pay a little more than craftsman i agree with people saying sk is good.

You're missing the segment between HF and truck brands:

The American made industrial brands.

im saying there are more segments than three to take advantage as i am. but i originally thought the original poster was more price conscious then he actually is.

C'mon you guys - there are MUCH larger issues at play. Do some reading on this forum and others, as well as on sites dedicated to Made In America. Equating buying Knipex pliers Made in Germany to US tool companies having their stuff made in China is not the same issue.

Even as a Canadian I know how important it is to support US-made products.

im not starting a debate but i was just saying i dont get why people care so much. i used an example of a guy doing work with chinese tools. and i have no problem with chinese, taiwan, french, german, american, etc. so long as they work and will do the job i intend with what i feel to be a good value for my dollar.

knipex are actually some of my favorite as in quality and design and i would not consider them budget.

no matter how much you care it doesnt matter towards what companies will do. it IS business. it would be against good business(as in business's goal is to increase shareholders wealth) to not do what they are doing. they would be steering towards bad business unless they have created brand loyalty (which is hard to do, and as some say on here is drinking kool aid) such as snap on. snap on has such high brand loyalty that bluepoint is like 90% taiwan now and no one seems to care.

there is no larger issue as there is no solution other than to stop buying that companies product. again i mean no debate i just originally thought the original poster was more budget oriented and i dont understand the concept of american only.