CGarage
Well-known member
Some food for thought today……
Both the tools and the mindset are needed for excellence in pursuit of perfection.
Both the tools and the mindset are needed for excellence in pursuit of perfection.
The Mindset: How to do high quality work
- Thread starter CGarage
- Start date
DieselSaves
Well-known member
Tools, mindset, and market.
I can appreciate the admonition to always watch, always improve. Seek out the best, if you can afford to, and see how they do it.
I can appreciate the admonition to always watch, always improve. Seek out the best, if you can afford to, and see how they do it.
what was he saying? 
I noticed the concrete pad he was showing, it appeared they were a wheelbarrow short and they were floating what they had poured .
I noticed the concrete pad he was showing, it appeared they were a wheelbarrow short and they were floating what they had poured .
As this applies to me and automotive work, I’ve gone from repairing vehicles and getting them back on the road, to restoring vehicles. I spend a bit more time on diagnosis, asking myself why something has failed, looking for tangential systemic problems, like “lack of maintenance”, which I often find.
Then I spend a lot more time cleaning, restoring finishes, lubrications and torques. I chase threads, making sure hardware is in like new condition, which includes finishes.
I found this guy because I’m building more than I do automotive work. In regards to that, I look at stuff more, and try to build pretty. I don’t think people (women) care so much about outstanding technical woodworking if it isn’t pretty. So I do sketchup layouts of just about everything, then often full scale mock-ups (Currently building double sash windows)
Then I spend a lot more time cleaning, restoring finishes, lubrications and torques. I chase threads, making sure hardware is in like new condition, which includes finishes.
I found this guy because I’m building more than I do automotive work. In regards to that, I look at stuff more, and try to build pretty. I don’t think people (women) care so much about outstanding technical woodworking if it isn’t pretty. So I do sketchup layouts of just about everything, then often full scale mock-ups (Currently building double sash windows)
Last edited:
Toolfool
Well-known member
Thanks for posting this. It helps me explain to people why I am the way I am about what I do. I am often called '****' about everything I do, but it is the reason why I have been successful in BOTH of my careers ( 10+ years as a camera technician, 35 years as a finish carpenter/GC ). My mother instilled this attitude in me early in my approach to schoolwork and it has carried me throughout my entire life.
A lot of good stuff in that video, and I can relate with a lot of what he says. The hardest part is balancing "perfect" with profit. At one end of the spectrum is work that is absolutely outstanding, but takes longer and costs A LOT more. The other side is slap shod sloppy, "no-one will ever see it" or "we'll be long gone before it's a problem" attitudes. ******, fast, move on to the next. I cannot stand the latter, it bothers me to no end.
My wife thinks I'm nuts. Since I've been working on our home remodel she often questions why I take so long to do things. Much of the issue is A) I'm doing it largely on my own, but more B) I'm learning as I go, so I do A LOT of research into most every aspect of whatever the project may be. When it comes to construction, electrical, plumbing, finishing, I didn't have anyone to teach me. I'm learning late in life. But with all the pressure to 'hurry up and get it done", I still try to do everything the absolute best I can.
When interviewing subs for work on the house, I was taken back by a question that often came up, from them. "are you going to live here, or flip it?" Umm, what? Why would that matter? But we all know the reason. Right?
My wife thinks I'm nuts. Since I've been working on our home remodel she often questions why I take so long to do things. Much of the issue is A) I'm doing it largely on my own, but more B) I'm learning as I go, so I do A LOT of research into most every aspect of whatever the project may be. When it comes to construction, electrical, plumbing, finishing, I didn't have anyone to teach me. I'm learning late in life. But with all the pressure to 'hurry up and get it done", I still try to do everything the absolute best I can.
When interviewing subs for work on the house, I was taken back by a question that often came up, from them. "are you going to live here, or flip it?" Umm, what? Why would that matter? But we all know the reason. Right?
ez-duzit
Well-known member
Apprenticing with a master seems to have fallen out of favor these days.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
That's because it costs money for the business. Automotive repair is a perfect example of that mentality.
They don't want me teaching anything to anyone, only producing work. Until the work load becomes too high, then they want me to teach people how to do my job, but then pay them less money. Can't have it both ways. I can do a basic brake inspection in 15min tops including a test drive. To properly teach people so they retain information and understand, we're talking an hour minimum. Then the repair takes 2-3x longer, am I teaching them how to cross-reference the bracket part numbers so we can steal the bracket off the leaking caliper to interchange with the unit on the other side with frozen pins? Saves the customer money, saves me time, but it takes more than 5min to understand. And thus the cycle continues. "Can't find good techs". Have you thought about growing your own?
dutchgray
Well-known member
Just remember it's really not that long ago where you had to pay your master to apprentice under them, such was the value of the opportunity to become a qualified member of a given trade.
Not too unlike how you have to pay to get degree level academic education today.
ez-duzit
Well-known member
I simply can't believe this is the real reason.
My own observations tell me that, due to intense competition, tougher economic times, etc, the true masters are nowadays also struggling more than ever before, and are therefore less inclined to take the time to train someone who is likely to become tomorrow's competition.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
I certainly won't train my replacement at a loss. My time teaching is unpaid, and I still do it. I go through their tool boxes with them to plan purchases to grow their capability. I teach them service info, parts listings, identifying thread pitches, and planning their household budgets.
Typically what "they" want, the ownership wants, is the master to teach all the profitable stuff like brakes and basic R&R to a cheaper replacement. Then whenever their work comes back, or difficult work comes in, that's your problem. They do the gravy exhaust jobs until they snap a stud off in the manifold, THEN it's time for the master to come over and pick up the pieces. Management doesn't want me to teach the new kid how to fix problems, just assembly line work and expect me to fix the BS. They get paid the gravy bulb replacement, the shop "warranties" the bulb every 2 weeks until I notice the connector is all melted, and then I'm expected to eat the wiring repair. That's certainly a part of the equation, the master doesn't like taking a pay cut and having all the problem-child vehicles shoved up his ***. I've told plenty of people, you can work on ANY ticket of mine, I'll pass it off. But I get to give you another from my pile too. No quitting, no parts cannon, actually do the work.
I would also disagree, and say for the top 25% of auto techs, things are only looking better as the industry writhes and flails in the consequences of its own actions. Lube techs can't do brakes anymore without a scan tool. Feel free to try and pull the motor off the rear caliper and "get by". When the system is full of codes and won't cooperate, I want the whole ticket in my name, PLUS add on pay to fix their nonsense. There's no more "tune ups" and R&R work on chevy 350s where you get paid 7 hours for intake gaskets.
danski0224
Well-known member
There is some truth to this.
KnurledNut
Well-known member
Lol. That cold joint will be hard to blend, perfectly. BTDT.what was he saying?
I noticed the concrete pad he was showing, it appeared they were a wheelbarrow short and they were floating what they had poured .
—-
Mistakes are one of the best teachers.
Tynee
Well-known member
Agree with what he's saying. What bothers me any time the "quality craftsmanship" discussion gets started is those who look down their noses at the work of others because it's not up to the standards they are able to achieve. If I'm particularly good at laying ceramic tile, that doesn't give me any right to act like another person's kitchen floor is sub-par, even if I could have done a better job. They may have done the best work they are capable of, and they're proud of themselves for accomplishing the task. There just seems to be a real condescending tone to this conversation a lot of times. Not true with the gentleman in the OP's video, but present on this forum at times.
I see it in the tool discussion, the guitar forums, etc, too. I ask the question a lot of times, "what's the best bang-for-your-buck widget?' The answers I get are often, "just pony up and buy the best one on the market..." as if I'm being cheap because I'm considering buying anything other than the be of everything available. Thanks for the terrible advice...
I see it in the tool discussion, the guitar forums, etc, too. I ask the question a lot of times, "what's the best bang-for-your-buck widget?' The answers I get are often, "just pony up and buy the best one on the market..." as if I'm being cheap because I'm considering buying anything other than the be of everything available. Thanks for the terrible advice...
NORTON'S SHOP
Well-known member
My son is doing it. Electrician. Has about a year and half before he's finished.
mreisner
Well-known member
Not the same as a practicing under a master, but the internet especially YouTube videos have made it so much easier for people to learn stuff that a lot of times take years to figure out.
If individuals are to improve, constructive criticism is really, really helpful.
The western world has gone totally and completely soft. Everyone demands a ‘participation trophy’ for ZERO accomplishment these days. The purposeful celebration of both the “lowest common denominator” and the “bottom of the barrel” is going to be the undoing of western civilization as we know it.
There are a lot of members on here who post utter nonsense and have such constricted ways of thinking that it is detrimental to their progress.
A recent example of this? Ratcheting wrenches. Most everyone here will want you to buy the US Snap On wrenches for $500 US. I posted about the Chinese made SKs being very nice for the money and there are plenty of members with a 1960s view of the world that can’t get past the fact that extinction exists in capitalism and one must adapt and evolve to survive.
jonesg
Well-known member
perfectionism is nothing more than self worship.
Think progress, not perfection.
DieselSaves
Well-known member
I find these views in two places in my life. One is on the internet.
All of the contractors, laborers, tradesmen I deal with shoot for the intersection of quality, time, and cost. That’s not being lazy, it’s making ends meet and staying employed.
I like Snap On and Milwaukee. If anyone asks me for recommendations, I find out what they need to do and want to spend. Usually Harbor Freight is the best choice.
Snap On ratchet wrenches, because they were mentioned, are never something I’d recommended. zero bang for your buck, imo.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
We can always improve, and we need to lift up people who are improving themselves.
That said, I'm dreadful at tile work.
Do the "new ownership" SKs skip sizes, or is it a full 10-19mm set?
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
I really like my snap on reversible ratcheting wrenches, much nicer than my gear-wrench units. Snap on is always a balancing act of performance/price. The really thin ring-end sold me on the upgrade.
Ooof, okay that'll be off my radar for the time being then.
DieselSaves
Well-known member
I should have specified the section about the western world going soft and the generalization about a no longer valid world view. I’m lazy and should be working.
I get that things have drastically degraded over time but blaming the average person is like laying all the blame on Edward Bernays or the Beatles. We are all in a rat race, mostly to the bottom, and we’re all pedaling.
I really like to produce top quality products. I end up compromising most of the time. When I get it all figured out, they’ll have to put it on my headstone.
I get that things have drastically degraded over time but blaming the average person is like laying all the blame on Edward Bernays or the Beatles. We are all in a rat race, mostly to the bottom, and we’re all pedaling.
I really like to produce top quality products. I end up compromising most of the time. When I get it all figured out, they’ll have to put it on my headstone.
NDJ
Well-known member
I come from a precision manufacturing background. When I delved into the "construction" industry, I found the hugest disparity between what I considered quality, and what was the accepted norm.
Tynee
Well-known member
Agree fully, the attitude I'm thinking of is just criticism though. Nothing constructive about it. Constructive would be, "Wow, looks like you've really put in the effort. If you'd like to straighten out those grout lines, here's an idea that has worked for me..." That's how I mentor in my profession.
The attitude I dislike sounds more like, "Wow, if you couldn't do any better than that, you should have hired somebody who knew what they were doing. Why did you even waste your time, money, and valuable space on the internet?"
ez-duzit
Well-known member
The mindset of "good enough" stands in the way of doing one's best.
Agree with the sentiment but not the example.
I feel like people just don’t know there should be even gaps around a door in a home or on a vehicle for example. Uneven gaps are sloppy and could result in adjacent parts rubbing and wearing more quickly, or in sub optimal seal performance etc. They just don’t recognize the difference between good and **** work.
As it applies to tools, Snap Ons marketing slogan used to be “there is a difference“. And I could point people to how exactly Snap On tools were different. But I think many here don’t give a ****. Tools are not art objects. They turn fasteners, they rust, and you throw them away. The house with the squeaky steps still lets you get to the second floor. They work, right?
Porsche 911 is just a car and not a good one because the gas mileage is **** and the back seats are uncomfortable. its a world view that isn’t discerning, isn’t curious,…
Aaron_W
Well-known member
I like his videos, lots of how to stuff with a side of making you think. I subscribed to his channel after watching an eleven minute video on tape measures.
I clicked on the video thinking "really, eleven minutes on how to use a tape measure?", I actually learned something about tape measures and it did not at all feel like eleven minutes.
I particularly relate to his comments here about being curious. That has served me well. I have often asked questions or followed a project thread for something I have no intention of doing. Later, sometimes years later I end up needing that information, and because I was curious about learning when I had the opportunity I had a little widget of an idea tucked away to get me started.
I clicked on the video thinking "really, eleven minutes on how to use a tape measure?", I actually learned something about tape measures and it did not at all feel like eleven minutes.
I particularly relate to his comments here about being curious. That has served me well. I have often asked questions or followed a project thread for something I have no intention of doing. Later, sometimes years later I end up needing that information, and because I was curious about learning when I had the opportunity I had a little widget of an idea tucked away to get me started.
YT can be a great resource. Though separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, can be a challenge. Especially for those unfamiliar with a particular task.
DieselSaves
Well-known member
I feel like the definition of “good enough” is a stumbling block in this conversation.
For me, ”good enough” is my equipment operating and completing tasks. I perform repairs to the best I can, given those parameters. I use new parts as I can, but if I’m under the gun and work is stopped, I’ve reinstalled used bearings, run with one V belt on a double shiv, added oil to a gearbox or engine or greased a bearing every hour until parts arrived or we had enough downtime for a proper repair. Is that “just good enough” or was I doing ok because I assessed the situation and found the best solution that kept me moving forward?
It’s been a journey to here and I’ve tried to do each job better the next time. I’ve wasted countless hours trying to figure out a problem when just running jumper wires to a switch would have been the general solution. We usually referred to that as “farmering” the problem, or if I knew a mechanic was listening, “flat rate”.
I get that for this conversation, “good enough“ could be defined as “****”. That’s on me if “good enough” is not the same level of insult. I think that if all they say about my abilities at my wake is that I was good enough, I‘m pretty sure I won’t mind.
ez-duzit
Well-known member
This is how we try to rationalize substituting hack jobs in place of our best work.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
If the machine NEEDS to be running and moving, do you eat the downtime or accept you'll be going back in and get it running for now?
Sometimes the perfect repair, isn't within the scope of possibility. See - $3000 cars. It's about the best you can produce with what's available sometimes. I'd like to treat them all like Ferraris, but sometimes the best choice of action is cutting a hole, welding something together, or bypassing something.
When the TIPM fuse boxes were initially dying on Chrysler vehicles, the no-brainer repair was to bypass the integrated relay for the fuel pump with an external relay. The fuse boxes were all of $1000, needed programmed, relay was soldered to the board and not directly serviceable, and on infinite back order. The eventually FCA fix was what the aftermarket was already doing - cut the wires out of the fancy "Totally Integrated Power Module", and add an external relay. Dealer will sell you a kit with instructions from FCA themselves.
Hack job? Or pragmatic?
Don't most people always hire the lowest bidder? Time is money for the perfectionist as well.
One would think those in the concrete business, eventually figure out when the best time to order and coordinate deliveries.
He has some great ideas, but folks generally do their best with what they have work with, often not always that much.
Truck repairs are a great example. "fix it right" might mean spending several thousand on one repair (on a unit with 700K miles)., when more work will be needed right around the corner. It has been said that even with the wasted time of driver downtime, it still might be cheaper to string the unit along. Might not seem like it but I'm not crunching the numbers.
I did some basement glass block windows last year. Tried to do the best I could, but surely others will think the mortar looks like ****. Kind of got to the point of where I just needed to get the job done, smoothing thing as best I could.
None of them seem to be going anywhere. I'm proud of my work'
One would think those in the concrete business, eventually figure out when the best time to order and coordinate deliveries.
He has some great ideas, but folks generally do their best with what they have work with, often not always that much.
Truck repairs are a great example. "fix it right" might mean spending several thousand on one repair (on a unit with 700K miles)., when more work will be needed right around the corner. It has been said that even with the wasted time of driver downtime, it still might be cheaper to string the unit along. Might not seem like it but I'm not crunching the numbers.
I did some basement glass block windows last year. Tried to do the best I could, but surely others will think the mortar looks like ****. Kind of got to the point of where I just needed to get the job done, smoothing thing as best I could.
None of them seem to be going anywhere. I'm proud of my work'