The strangeness at Sears continues... (observation thread)

[MPOWERD]

This isnt a ***** out sears post so if you want to hammer them go elsewhere...

This is just an observation post on some of the confusing policies at sears these days...

1. Purchased a flexhead ratchet online that was pictured with USA stamp on it. Received the known chinese copy. Called customer service. They couldn't or wouldn't be able to help me beyond advising me to return the item, until I mentioned that their site advertisement (picture) showed the USA stamp. They immediately refunded me the entire purchase amount. Guess if the purchase is refunded I cant make a formal complaint against them...

2. Was at one of my (many) local sears stores today looking to see if they had any of these flex head ratchets left in USA manufacture and found out they do, but only refurbished and ONLY for use for exchange from a broken one. So essentially if you buy a Chinese made ratchet and break it you can take it back to Sears and be given a USA made ratchet. Very strange turn of events...

3. They had special tags on 2 of the (multiple) rebuilt ratchets they had in the exchange drawer that they had been rebuilt with chinese parts. The ratchets still have the USA stamp on them. But they are being rebuilt with chinese parts. Isnt that somewhat illegal to do, to give out a USA marked part that is built with foreign internal parts? The notification paper was simply taped on one ratchet and sitting next to another in the drawer. Nothing permanent marked on the ratchet...

 

[rlitman]

The ratchets still have the USA stamp on them. But they are being rebuilt with chinese parts. Isnt that somewhat illegal to do, to give out a USA marked part that is built with foreign internal parts?

I don't think so. COO marking rules don't apply to refurbished items. Just newly manufactured ones.

 

[BK13]

The last time I was at Sears, the clerks are using their smart phones to ring up purchases, even though it takes easily four times longer, and seems to be running about 50% error rate.

Ain't technology grand?

 

[Mister Laugh]

I don't see how rebuilding and tagging the ratchets would be illegal, it's not like they are trying to misrepresent them. No different than buying a rebuilt alternator or the likes, it likely won't be remarked either.

All that being said my opinion probably isnt that important because I think you guys get way too bent out of shape over COO. Have you even given the Chinese ratchet a fair chance to fail you before judging it?

 

[Stepside]

~Giving a ratchet a fair chance to fail _... ...

hmmm, is failure an option?

 

[Mister Laugh]

~Giving a ratchet a fair chance to fail _... ...

hmmm, is failure an option?

I don't want to turn this thread into a debate. My statement wasn't meant to imply that the ratchet would fail, it was made to imply that it likely wouldn't fail and sooner than the USA counterpart. I have ratchets that I am fairly certain are made in china at work, that I use in situations that I don't want to beat up one of my good ratchets. They have yet to let me down, and thy get beat hard. The USA stamp does not make it bulletproof.

 

[Deej]

I have very little experience with craftsman ratchets, but it wouldnt surprise me if people here are praising the chinese ratchets soon. I bet they will be a better product for the price than the usa ones have been in the last several years.

 

[jeffmoss26]

I actually got good service there Saturday. All the mechanics gloves were marked at 9.99, rang up at 14.99; the manager gave me the sale price even though it didn't start til Sunday.

 

[fury9]

sounds like you are bitching out sears in your own way

 

[Super Sport]

I don't want to turn this thread into a debate. My statement wasn't meant to imply that the ratchet would fail, it was made to imply that it likely wouldn't fail and sooner than the USA counterpart. I have ratchets that I am fairly certain are made in china at work, that I use in situations that I don't want to beat up one of my good ratchets. They have yet to let me down, and thy get beat hard. The USA stamp does not make it bulletproof.

In my opinion, most people who are pro-USA (myself included) are that way because of political/social reasons rather than quality reasons. Often quality is a byproduct, but not always.

I think the fit/finish of the China Craftsman will improve from what Craftsman has been selling. Costs will decline while prices remain the same, giving them the ability to improve product. But even if the new products are better, I'm not going to buy them simply because of them being made over there.


To the OP, those are some strange observations.

 

[jeffk14]

I don't want to bash Sears here, but if COO is important to someone, and if Sears is going to all China stuff, why the rush to go out and buy up the USA stock? Anything that needs to be warrantied in the future will be Chinese anyway. For somebody to whom COO is very important (and that's o.k.) the whole China thing kind of "voids" the warranty factor, right?

Not only that, there are plenty of imported offerings available now that are of better quality and are at a lower price than the current USA CMan stuff.

 

[jeffk14]

In my opinion, most people who are pro-USA (myself included) are that way because of political/social reasons rather than quality reasons. Often quality is a byproduct, but not always.

I think the fit/finish of the China Craftsman will improve from what Craftsman has been selling. Costs will decline while prices remain the same, giving them the ability to improve product. But even if the new products are better, I'm not going to buy them simply because of them being made over there.


To the OP, those are some strange observations.

That very thing happened when Kobalt went from USA to Taiwan recently.

 

[Super Sport]

I don't want to bash Sears here, but if COO is important to someone, and if Sears is going to all China stuff, why the rush to go out and buy up the USA stock? Anything that needs to be warrantied in the future will be Chinese anyway. For somebody to whom COO is very important (and that's o.k.) the whole China thing kind of "voids" the warranty factor, right?

Not only that, there are plenty of imported offerings available now that are of better quality and are at a lower price than the current USA CMan stuff.

I personally don't break many tools, and the few I will break will not break the bank to buy used replacements. Warranty for me isn't an issue. Now maybe if I was a tech using it daily...

But your last statement sums up the way most consumers feel. Quality is no longer a big issue, so why not save a buck and buy the imported stuff? I don't blame Sears for a second for sending production overseas. They pretty much had no choice if they wanted a chance at staying in business. That doesn't mean I like or support that decision. I prefer to help keep as many jobs here as I can, and I understand that I will sometime pay more and sometimes get lesser quality. You can't always get your cake and eat it too.

I'm really not helping keep this thread on topic, but it's bound to head this way sooner or later anyway...

 

[03protege]

What ratchet are you trying to buy? The RP 36 tooth?

 

[4xdog]

I have very little experience with craftsman ratchets, but it wouldnt surprise me if people here are praising the chinese ratchets soon. I bet they will be a better product for the price than the usa ones have been in the last several years.

Ummm... based on what? You said you had little experience with Craftsman -- so what makes you say the USA ratchets have had problems with cost/quality the last few years?

 

[imagine44]

The last time I was at Sears, the clerks are using their smart phones to ring up purchases, even though it takes easily four times longer, and seems to be running about 50% error rate.

Ain't technology grand?

I saw that too when I checked out last Wed. Old timer working the counter took literally 3 minutes poking on the smart phone! I just stood there patiently waiting. I bought 2 loose sockets, so it wasn't like it was a large sale.

 

[NC-Fordguy]

3. They had special tags on 2 of the (multiple) rebuilt ratchets they had in the exchange drawer that they had been rebuilt with chinese parts. The ratchets still have the USA stamp on them. But they are being rebuilt with chinese parts. Isnt that somewhat illegal to do, to give out a USA marked part that is built with foreign internal parts? The notification paper was simply taped on one ratchet and sitting next to another in the drawer. Nothing permanent marked on the ratchet...

How were you able to tell the USA made ratchets were being rebuilt with outsourced parts?

 

[markduncan93]

I picked up a couple rebuild kits from my local Sears and they had MADE IN USA on the package. Same ones they use to rebuild ratchets. I always thought the Chinese/Taiwanese CM gear and pawl wouldn't work in a USA CM ratchet.

 

[tank4114]

i think the main deal about buying USA is supporting your own country so that hopefully, you can have jobs in the future either that, or you can all go to china and work

 

[Deej]

Ummm... based on what? You said you had little experience with Craftsman -- so what makes you say the USA ratchets have had problems with cost/quality the last few years?

The only experience I've had with their ratchets is bad experience. When I first started working full time, I was taking my ratchets in every couple weeks to be rebuilt. Maybe it was me not using them right back then, but I went the snap on route and haven't had any issues. I remember a craftsman ratchet crapping out while trying to break spark plugs loose. It's limited, but still bad experience for me.

 

[Kracin]

i think the main deal about buying USA is supporting your own country so that hopefully, you can have jobs in the future either that, or you can all go to china and work

i would say this is true, but the funny thing about the whole outsourcing to china thing is that the union shops i've worked at don't put a large emphasis on buying made in the USA items. they will buy whatever works for a good price.

hence why i have 9 wera screwdrivers from a previous employer, because that was the "issue" screwdriver. and then would buy gearwrench ratcheting wrenches which obviously aren't usa made.

and then you go look at the parts cribs and all of the black pipe fittings are all thailand, or india. and anything and everything is stamped somewhere other than the u.s. because that is how they keep their costs down to stay competative.


i dont blame craftsman/sears at all for outsourcing to overseas suppliers, how else are they going to keep selling decent tools to the average guy who still wants them for cheaper than the best tools out there? they certainly can't do it out of good faith, otherwise the brand would have been dead a while ago.

 

[fourtythree]

The last time I was at Sears, the clerks are using their smart phones to ring up purchases, even though it takes easily four times longer, and seems to be running about 50% error rate.

Ain't technology grand?

Mines been using ipads. A simple trip to the register turns into a total cluster every time. Makes you think they want to drive customers away...

 

[Pumpman1968]

Ya know....I've been thinking about this. I've been in the pump business for a long time and back in the 90's Marathon electric motors switched to a Mexican manufacturer during the NAFTA debacle. Sears.....and Home Depot....sell rebranded Sta-Rite pumps and they were stuck with warranties, which they EAT, and an inferior product because they were under contract to buy from that manufacturer.

I wonder if this switch was done by the manufacturer and that Sears is just stuck with it because of the purchasing contract.

It really does seem that if Sears was the motivator in going overseas, SOMEONE in their company would have to realize this was the equivalent of shooting themselves in the foot.

With that being said.......and if they are under a purchasing contract, that would explain why the prices haven't changed........Sears would still be buying at the same price from the manufacturer.

 

[IngyHere]

In my opinion, most people who are pro-USA (myself included) are that way because of political/social reasons rather than quality reasons. Often quality is a byproduct, but not always.

You never used the Chinese ratchets I used. Damn gears slipped routinely or busted. I've had Chinese sockets crack so often, I expect it to happen. And, I've used an India wrench that actually bent along the beam. That does not mention the many combination wrenches where the "lobster" claw just snaps off. Now that feels real good when your knuckles are there with it scraping on the pavement.

Look at it this way: Why is there even a lobster claw? It's because metallurgy and manufacturing are inferior. Period. They make up for poor materials, quality control and unconcerned factory worker by throwing more materials at the problem.

One good thing, though, about using crappy tools is that it teaches you how to throw a wrench right.

 

[Super Sport]

You never used the Chinese ratchets I used. Damn gears slipped routinely or busted. I've had Chinese sockets crack so often, I expect it to happen. And, I've used an India wrench that actually bent along the beam. That does not mention the many combination wrenches where the "lobster" claw just snaps off. Now that feels real good when your knuckles are there with it scraping on the pavement.

Look at it this way: Why is there even a lobster claw? It's because metallurgy and manufacturing are inferior. Period. They make up for poor materials, quality control and unconcerned factory worker by throwing more materials at the problem.

One good thing, though, about using crappy tools is that it teaches you how to throw a wrench right.

Sure there is **** quality imported goods, but there has also been plenty of **** quality domestic goods. The COO isn't the determining factor, it's the materials and the level of quality control used.

Imported Craftsman wrenches may have that extra metal on the open end, but Kobalt, Gearwrench, and many other imports do not. Yet they can hold up well, telling us that the country in which they were made is not the problem.

 

[IngyHere]

I wonder if this switch was done by the manufacturer and that Sears is just stuck with it because of the purchasing contract.

Sears=Kmart

Kmart went BK about 10 years ago but came back to make a killing selling old store properties. Sears was ruined a short time later by their then-robot-like CEO. The old Kmart guys seized the opportunity and bought Sears. What you see now is the crappy result. The new Sears is really just Kmart by another name. That's why it's heading to hell in a hand basket.

The CEO making decisions to outsource tools just took off in January. Of course, it was for unspecified "health reasons" that just happened to coincide with takeover by the hedge fund manager. Six years of declining revenue since Kmart mentality. Gee, I wonder why?

Now they are talking about the new guy taking $1 per year when he rakes in million$ in stock.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/21/edward-lampert-salary_n_2925673.html

Believe me, moving tool production to China wasn't about making better products.

 

[Kev442]

Edward Lampert is not an "old Kmart guy". He seized controlling stock in Kmart, forced the bankruptcy and bought the remains for pennies on the dollar. He then did the liquidatation, made millions and did the same to Sears.
He is just another Mitt Romney. Buy it. Break it apart. Pocket millions and leave regular stockholders and employees holding the bag. Repeat as necessary until everything in the US is gone or sold to foreign investors.

 

[oldtools]

i would say this is true, but the funny thing about the whole outsourcing to china thing is that the union shops i've worked at don't put a large emphasis on buying made in the USA items. they will buy whatever works for a good price.

hence why i have 9 wera screwdrivers from a previous employer, because that was the "issue" screwdriver. and then would buy gearwrench ratcheting wrenches which obviously aren't usa made.

and then you go look at the parts cribs and all of the black pipe fittings are all thailand, or india. and anything and everything is stamped somewhere other than the u.s. because that is how they keep their costs down to stay competative.


i dont blame craftsman/sears at all for outsourcing to overseas suppliers, how else are they going to keep selling decent tools to the average guy who still wants them for cheaper than the best tools out there? they certainly can't do it out of good faith, otherwise the brand would have been dead a while ago.

The Union workers then go to Walmart to support the Chinese workers.

 

[mmack66]

How were you able to tell the USA made ratchets were being rebuilt with outsourced parts?

They had special tags on them.

 

[MPOWERD]

What ratchet are you trying to buy? The RP 36 tooth?

This is what I bought...

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-3-8-...p-00944815000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1

I still have the Chinese one since they did not require me to sent them the wrench back after refund.

I have another Chinese made ratchet that I got stuck with just 2 months ago from Sears that is already broken. Going to trade it in for whatever rebuilt one they have available if I ever remember to put it in the car before I go...

 

[MPOWERD]

I picked up a couple rebuild kits from my local Sears and they had MADE IN USA on the package. Same ones they use to rebuild ratchets. I always thought the Chinese/Taiwanese CM gear and pawl wouldn't work in a USA CM ratchet.

I thought that as well... Guess that isn't always the case.

 

[MPOWERD]

sounds like you are bitching out sears in your own way

No actually just am confused by how Sears is doing things. Reminds me of a large vessel at sea with no one at the rudder...

 

[MPOWERD]

How were you able to tell the USA made ratchets were being rebuilt with outsourced parts?

They had special tags on them.

Exactly, and I was actually impressed they would disclose that information. Not to thrilled they are doing it, but impressed they are not covering it up...

 

[silviaboy89]

this is sad i kinda feel bad for them, because i bought the 255 set when it was usa made a few years ago ive beat on them no problem. quality for sure .

 

[NC-Fordguy]

Exactly, and I was actually impressed they would disclose that information. Not to thrilled they are doing it, but impressed they are not covering it up...

I find this very difficult to believe.

Reason so, based upon the PMT training literature that I've read on Sears intranet, the posting of that literature on this web site, and speaking with the PMTs at the nearby Sears as well as my feeble attempts to do so,.............

The Asian sourced rebuild kits will NOT fit the USA sourced ratchets.

I guess at your nearby Sears they also tag the USA ratchets that are rebuilt with Asian sourced parts?? I haven't seen that either nor found any documentation instructing folks to do so.

 

[sberry]

Ratchets have been a sore spot there for a long time and its been dumb not to fix it and sell the same **** for 30+ years. It has cost them millions. The China version can only be an improvement.

 

[sberry]

he only thing they have going for them that still makes them usable is that despite shooting themselves in the foot most of the stuff is a consumer bargain. They took the low road to price against Walmart imports and that has been a long term flaw in the plan.

It could only get much cheaper if they gave it away, I am a fan because it is disposable prices. Its the bottom of the barrel quality though.

 

[garthg]

The last time I was at Sears, the clerks are using their smart phones to ring up purchases, even though it takes easily four times longer, and seems to be running about 50% error rate.

Ain't technology grand?

Went to Sears to buy a camping axe. (Still USA made by Vaughan). Clerk used his phone to ring up the sale, and I got the "internet" price, 10% lower than marked in the store.