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The USA made conundrum...

AndrewV

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This isn't a bashing by any means. More of a mental debate.
I own plenty of tools from us based, and produced companies.
Snap On, Craftsman impact extention and prybars, Lisle usa made oil filter tools, wiss snips, and so on.

If i can buy a us made tool, i perfer to. But its not always feasible. My non us options have come to GearWrench, and Sunex.

So the mental debate.

Why buy us made tools, when the warrantied product would be from an offshore production, counters the original reason it was purchased. So why buy it?

The main ones that come to mind.
Williams Kobalt impacts.
Craftsman products.
 
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sonvolt

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:beer:Import brands are fine, it is just a matter of opinon. I grew up using USA made hand tools and that is what I want to use today. Depending on application it is comparing apples and oranges.
 

NUTTSGT

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Hopefully, the US stuff won't break. Nobody wants a tool to break but if it's a ratchet, you may get lucky and get a USA refurb or maybe they will give you the rebuild kit so you can do it yourself.

If it gets replaced with a China repop, I guess, you either use the hell out of it, sell it or relinquish it to light duty off to a tool bag where it won't see much action. I suppose it would depend on what the tool is. A wrench, hopefully not a Cman lobster claw. I think I would keep the broken one and make some speciality tool out of it.
 

Murphy4570

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Expand your "USA made" to "Western Made", and you'll find a lot of options.

Look into tools from the Old World. I love Knipex pliers myself, quality German tools.
 

Strouty

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I buy my tools based on quality for my shop. My tools that are used in the field are sometimes bought based on how often they get lost.

As an example, I have nice 3/4" and 1" drive ratchets and breaker bars, but a lot of cheap sockets. The sockets can be lost fairly easily, but the ratchets are harder to misplace.
 

allinon72

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Some folks just want to support their neighbors and their country. USA tools are, 8 out of 10 times, better quality
 

Super Sport

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How many tools do you plan on breaking? I've only had to warranty a handful of stuff. If I bought a 100pc set and only needed to replace 5 things, well it's still nearly all USA made and I supported some US jobs in the process.
 
OP
A

AndrewV

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How much stuff do you break?

Rarely do. It's my mental debate,of why we(members of gj) insist on buying them( formaly manufactured tools), when the warrantied tool would be foreign. To just have non usa replacements.
 
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jeepinerdeep

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I am speculating that the super ******** USA guys don't tell a sole when the USA socket breaks, they scour ebay for an exact replacement if a proper one is not supplied under warranty.
 

nicksnothereman

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Old stock US=no point in buying (already made, already paid).

I actually try to buy usa with just about everything but tools (health stuff I'm at around 90%). I check coo but I won't really actively look for us made stuff because of cost. That's the way it is. It's not a ******* contest it's about what you need and what you can afford.

Nowadays (tool wise) I won't buy a chinese tool unless it's on clearance, I will buy taiwanese tools if I need them. I get good use out of them but I don't consider them cheap, the deal is that taiwanese quality is pretty much similar to the american tools I used to buy for a price that is similar. I don't think that's on me, I think that's on those manufacturers of american tools for raising price beyond the demand point. They were good tools but so are the modern taiwanese tools.
 

yowzer

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For me, it's a matter of quality and price, tempered by how much I expect to use a tool. US made is a nice bonus, but not a requirement.
 

jmauld

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Old stock US=no point in buying (already made, already paid).

There is a point to buying old product. It beats letting it go to the landfill. No point in using our resources to make a new one, when an old one is perfectly fine.
 

Troutsqueezer

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The older I get, the less I care about State.
I consider myself a citizen of the world more than a country these days.
I don't care where it's made.
If it works for me and puts food on on somebody's table I don't care where they live.
They're human, just like me.
 

BB Stacker

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I went to Sears a couple of days ago and was so disappointed with the quality of the Craftsman line of tools. I walked out without buying anything. The quality of the Kobalt line of tools at Lowes is better than the Craftsman stuff I saw. Too bad, Craftsman was a brand I grew up with and always held in great regard. Now, not so much. I guess I will have to start scouring the garage sales, estate sales, and swap meets looking for the old craftsman line of tools.
 

zkling

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The one tool I was really saddened on was the Craftsman strap wrench blue handle went from England to China, now red handle but same part number. I bought the "set" back when and have probably gone through at least $300 worth of those blue ones. :lol: No joke, they are such a handy size by so danged fragile it seems. To bad they don't just produce replacement straps. Last one I warranted was around the new year IIRC and I had to really look for a England made one. Been trying to use more caution with this one. The China one is much different and actually won't work for a specific application I use the blue one for (no marr).

There have been many a threads on this, but the sad reality is there is no brand that can replace what Craftsman USA was. Between the price, availability and USA coo. The only other non truck brand of tool that I have had to warranty is Proto and this may be surprising to some, but Grainger has been awesome every time.
 
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Dave455

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Even living in the U.K. I buy U.S. made tools whenever I can!

Of course, I like to buy British made tools as my first choice, but that's not always feasible!

The most important reason for buying U.S. made tools is the quality! A tool that's made in the U.S. is usually made to a good standard, made of decent material, hardened and plated correctly and generally well thought through, and that's an unbiased opinion as I'm not American!

Of course, the U.S. supplied many tools and items of equipment to the U.K. during the war, so if I can say something of a 'thank you' to those old workers by keeping their sons and grandsons in work, then all well and good!

I don't buy Chinese tools, or even Taiwanese (even though they are slightly better)! The main problem is that the people producing them don't care if they work or not! Couple this with the generally poor materials used (the Chinese struggle to get decent steel) and you have a recipe for a pretty poor tool that will give little pleasure in use! You also have the knowledge that you are supporting a regime fundamentally opposed to just about everything the free world stands for, with an appalling human rights record as well!

If you don't care about where something is made, you should!

Living in the U.K. I have seen outsourcing over many years, but never to the extent that it's currently taking place in the U.S. Many U.K. companies have outsourced production to perhaps a cheaper European country, perhaps eastern europe, or even the far east, but China has always been the very last resort for the reasons stated! I can buy stuff with British brand names that's made in Portugal, or Hungary, or even Malaysia but it still generally works!

By contrast, many big U.S. Firms seem to be falling over each other to produce stuff 'offshore', by which they generally mean China! No 'intermediate' stage with perhaps a chance of keeping he quality up, straight to the cheapest option! What really hacks me off is when the folks in charge of these firms then expect me to pay the same price, for a now **** product that they are making a whopping margin on! I refuse to do it!

So, what are your options!

1) Buy U.S. made whenever you can! This may involve spending a little more, but it's better than saving a little but getting a really crappy product!

2) If you can't, consider buying something made abroad, but made somewhere sensible! You can buy decent tools from manufacturers in Germany, Switzerland, The U.K. and a host of other countries that rival U.S. made stuff for quality! Sadly, shipping can work out costly, but there are many U.S. importers now!

3) Don't be afraid to buy generically 'Asian' tools! Japan produces some really nice tools that are made to a high standard at a reasonable price!

4) Whatever you do, avoid buying Chinese and Taiwanese tools off the trucks at truck prices! Aside from being incredibly poor value (you can usually get the same item elsewhere at a fraction of the price) you are encouraging the companies that are indulging in the very worst practices!
 
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1982fxr

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The one tool I was really saddened on was the Craftsman strap wrench blue handle went from England to China, now red handle but same part number. I bought the "set" back when and have probably gone through at least $300 worth of those blue ones. :lol: No joke, they are such a handy size by so danged fragile it seems. To bad they don't just produce replacement straps. Last one I warranted was around the new year IIRC and I had to really look for a England made one. Been trying to use more caution with this one. The China one is much different and actually won't work for a specific application I use the blue one for (no marr).

There have been many a threads on this, but the sad reality is there is no brand that can replace what Craftsman USA was. Between the price, availability and USA coo. The only other non truck brand of tool that I have had to warranty is Proto and this may be surprising to some, but Grainger has been awesome every time.

what's more surprising is that you break Proto tools!? :willy_nil What do you have to warranty by them?
 

Revere Cycles

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I have a very limited supply of Taiwanese and Chinese tools; mostly stuff that I use so infrequently that doesn't bother me. The stuff I use every day is mostly USA, with a lot of German, Czech, Swiss, and Italian thrown in.

I've recently started to reorganize my shop, and part of the reorganization involves purchasing a larger roller cabinet (or two!). The HF 44" is the easy answer for many, but I keep holding out for something around that size used and Made in USA for a reasonable price. I have yet to find it, but I am still hunting. Am I daft? I've looked at the 44" several times, and part of me really likes it, but I just can't pull the trigger. In some ways, I would prefer to find a couple more friction slide Kennedy 277 rollers and call it a day.
 

Fretters

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You also have the knowledge that you are supporting a regime fundamentally opposed to just about everything the free world stands for, with an appalling human rights record as well!

Welcome to the history of just about every civilised nation. Empires, invasion, slavery, oppression etc., pretty much any of the nowadays 'civilised' nations you can shake a stick at have been there and done it already. It's natural progression.


If you don't care about where something is made, you should!

Quality is quality, simple as. It matters not where it originates.
 
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sloppy

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The older I get, the less I care about State.
I consider myself a citizen of the world more than a country these days.
I don't care where it's made.
If it works for me and puts food on on somebody's table I don't care where they live.
They're human, just like me.

Your right they are human just like you.. Of course they are not being treated like humans in some of these country's, and that does seem to put you at odds with what you are preaching...
 

zkling

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Would an old serp belt with a chain wrench work?

:headscrat I'm not familiar, do you have a picture? I use them to remove and install a specif part that cannot be marred. The newer china ones have a metal clasp in the mechanism where as the old ones were all plastic and rubber.

what's more surprising is that you break Proto tools!? :willy_nil What do you have to warranty by them?

A ratchet kit and a pair of diag cutters that had gotten sloppy in the pivot. I used them all the time for anything from romex to fine circuit wire.

Very true.

I don't think Craftsman gets nearly enough credit here. People complain about the quality of certain pieces or the occasional difficult sales rep and miss the forest for the trees. Just a few years ago, Craftsman was an extensive line of quality, widely available, widely respected American-made tools for extremely reasonable prices. We'll never see its like again.

O I agree 100%. I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone working with tools that doesn't currently or ever in the past had a craftsman tool of some sort in the their box.
 
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85FourEyedGT

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75% of my tools are american id say, I buy american simply on the principal that it keeps fellow Americans employed, apart from almost always being very high quality.

I do the occasional trip to HF cause those prices cant be beat and I have a gang of Duralast Taiwanese tools from when I worked at Autozone in HS but the truth is, now that im an Engineer, I dont have any excuses to throw my business to the Chinese. They are good people and deserve a life as good as any, but we've got our own problems to sort out here and The United States of America has given me more in life than any other country in the world, so I have no problem having the "USA first, everyone else second" attitude
 

retDAC

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:headscrat I'm not familiar, do you have a picture? I use them to remove and install a specif part that cannot be marred. The newer china ones have a metal clasp in the mechanism where as the old ones were all plastic and rubber. ...
Something like this: http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/Miscwr/CW12.html

with an old serpentine belt around whatever to prevent the chain marring.

Or maybe tape the metal clasp you have? There is some kind of rubberized tape available.
 

Bogey won

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^^^Mr troutsqueezer-Some people want to save the world

Better to save America first so we can have something left over to make a difference in the world you want to save.

Compassion is a luxury in this country that few outside our borders can afford.

I cant save the sweat shop people,they cant save themselves,a mi-nute difference is made by the wages that are paid to produce what we as a country consume,so they at least receive something.

Regardless of race,religion,creed,belief,****** identity,for me its America first last and always,We fed the ******* world,led the way medically,on and on,and first on the scene of a catastrophic occurrence,we showed up when other turned their heads,I feel no collective guilt.

Citizen of the world? walk into Mexico without a passport,border jumper,you wont get welfare,housing,food,money,kids lunch,you will get 5 years in prison,

that will wake you up sir(knew one that had that experience) to the fact,not all the world has your best interest at heart,wish they did,but the world seems,(unready for a world citizen) so far.

Or give up your citizenship and see how many countries in this world clamor for your presence in their land.:wtf:
 

BDT/NWMN

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^^^Mr troutsqueezer-Some people want to save the world

Better to save America first so we can have something left over to make a difference in the world you want to save.

Compassion is a luxury in this country that few outside our borders can afford.

I cant save the sweat shop people,they cant save themselves,a mi-nute difference is made by the wages that are paid to produce what we as a country consume,so they at least receive something.

Regardless of race,religion,creed,belief,****** identity,for me its America first last and always,We fed the ******* world,led the way medically,on and on,and first on the scene of a catastrophic occurrence,we showed up when other turned their heads,I feel no collective guilt.

Citizen of the world? walk into Mexico without a passport,border jumper,you wont get welfare,housing,food,money,kids lunch,you will get 5 years in prison,

that will wake you up sir(knew one that had that experience) to the fact,not all the world has your best interest at heart,wish they did,but the world seems,(unready for a world citizen) so far.

Or give up your citizenship and see how many countries in this world clamor for your presence in their land.:wtf:


Agree
 

n8n

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Very true.

I don't think Craftsman gets nearly enough credit here. People complain about the quality of certain pieces or the occasional difficult sales rep and miss the forest for the trees. Just a few years ago, Craftsman was an extensive line of quality, widely available, widely respected American-made tools for extremely reasonable prices. We'll never see its like again.

There's this idea here that a lot of us "settle" for USA-made quality. If only we'd get over ourselves and buy the superior Chinese stuff for the same or less money. If I weren't thoroughly satisfied with all of my American-made tools, believe me, I'd save my money and stop buying them.

I don't understand this mentality that USA tools (Craftsman especially) are so awful that we must be brainwashed to put up with them.

The problem with that mentality is that only the places with the cheapest labor would have any manufacturing at all. How do you have a middle-class when everyone is flipping burgers/working retail or an engineer/doctor/lawyer and there's no one in between? So how about Americans worry about Americans, Chinese worry about Chinese, and so on?

Not that I think any country can be self-sufficient in this day and age, but come on: is there any reason we can't make our own wrenches? Do we not have the technology, the resources, and the capacity? Or is it simply that consumers want to pay slightly less for them, producers want to increase their margins, and nobody cares about the greater effects?

Capitalism only works with educated consumers, but few people are willing to shoulder that responsibility.

I agree that (old) Craftsman deserves respect, even if it wasn't truly top-line. Look in the buckets at any pawn shop and once you get past the no-names, you'll see just how much Craftsman stuff was sold and used over the years.

It's good for USA mfgrs. that the Chinese tools have been traditionally inferior. If they *were* better quality, we might as well just tell S-K, Snap-On, etc. to turn out the lights and go home...
 

Adam.C

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Old stock US=no point in buying (already made, already paid).

I buy a lot of second hand US stuff on the bay. So I wrestle with this too. Based on my own experience, buying used Snap On has been a gate way to buying new. Now I patronize a local rep, have an account and buy stuff regularly.

My approach is to bottom feed on ebay- sets with pieces in poor condition or missing, then fill in with brand new off the truck, tho I do often wait for sales.

I suspect others may do the same so buying used CAN help the manufacturers. Additionally, the high price of used tools in good condition, reassures me (and hopefully others) when I buy new. I bought a panel popper set off the truck yesterday that was on sale. I believe I paid less or close to the ebay price.
 

jmauld

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Living in the U.K. I have seen outsourcing over many years, but never to the extent that it's currently taking place in the U.S. Many U.K. companies have outsourced production to perhaps a cheaper European country, perhaps eastern europe, or even the far east, but China has always been the very last resort for the reasons stated! I can buy stuff with British brand names that's made in Portugal, or Hungary, or even Malaysia but it still generally works!

By contrast, many big U.S. Firms seem to be falling over each other to produce stuff 'offshore', by which they generally mean China! No 'intermediate' stage with perhaps a chance of keeping he quality up, straight to the cheapest option! What really hacks me off is when the folks in charge of these firms then expect me to pay the same price, for a now **** product that they are making a whopping margin on! I refuse to do it!

Thank you for supporting us! I always look for US, then European/Canadian/Japanese, and then I look for the low-price point if nothing else is available. It's a shame that our business leaders are too short sighted and focused on immediate results to see what they are doing to our economies from a long term point of view. It's even worse that the general population doesn't understand the importance of supporting your local workers first.
 

Hootbro

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^^^Mr troutsqueezer-Some people want to save the world

Better to save America first so we can have something left over to make a difference in the world you want to save.

Compassion is a luxury in this country that few outside our borders can afford.

I cant save the sweat shop people,they cant save themselves,a mi-nute difference is made by the wages that are paid to produce what we as a country consume,so they at least receive something.

Regardless of race,religion,creed,belief,****** identity,for me its America first last and always,We fed the ******* world,led the way medically,on and on,and first on the scene of a catastrophic occurrence,we showed up when other turned their heads,I feel no collective guilt.

Citizen of the world? walk into Mexico without a passport,border jumper,you wont get welfare,housing,food,money,kids lunch,you will get 5 years in prison,

that will wake you up sir(knew one that had that experience) to the fact,not all the world has your best interest at heart,wish they did,but the world seems,(unready for a world citizen) so far.

Or give up your citizenship and see how many countries in this world clamor for your presence in their land.:wtf:

Good post. I suspect troutsqueezer is probably older and retired or close to it. So he has secured is golden years when American industrial employment was at it's height. He would be singing a different tune being a young 20 something today trying to gain and find liveable wage employment with his "open borders" nonsense.
 

Jim C.

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The older I get, the less I care about State.
I consider myself a citizen of the world more than a country these days.
I don't care where it's made.
If it works for me and puts food on on somebody's table I don't care where they live.
They're human, just like me.

Hey Dennis, I guess I understand what you're saying and I respect your opinion. Still, if I had only one choice, I'd rather see my neighbors employed than someone in another country. Best if everyone everywhere had a job, but in reality, that's not the case. We're all citizens of the world, but the United States is still "home."

Anyway, I also wanted to say that I checked out your website and really found it interesting. I like what you're doing and I was fascinated by your bee keeping writeup. I also liked your tractor restoration. Good stuff.

Jim C.
 
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1cargarage

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WARNING: THIS IS JUST MY OPINION​

:soapbox: :rant: :soapbox: :rant: :soapbox:

I'm 25, so I was not around in the 50's and 60's when the economy was booming, and tools were 'built to last'. I did, however, work on my uncle's farm for 5 years, where the large majority of hand and power tools and equipment were USA made from that era. They worked when he bought them and most are still functioning great to this day. I had many talks about the OP's dilemma with my uncle (He's ~70 years old at this point). What I concluded is that 'back in the day', people didn't buy USA tools just because they were made in the USA. They bought USA tools because they were readily available at any hardware store, were the best tools for the money, andwere made in the USA.

In the Norman Rockwell era, a pro or DIYer could walk into Joe's Hardware Store needing a socket set, pick from 3-4 different options, mostly USA made, make his/her decision, and walk out with it. This was because of the large number of manufacturers that were located in the USA and domestic distribution costs were minimal. Also, the US economy was much stronger, so USA tools could be had at a fraction of what they run today.

Also, let's face it, they were the best tools available. A young person like myself is often taken aback by the overwhelming craftsmanship and reliable operation of older USA tools, although it doesn't really surprise me anymore. On the farm, if I had a choice of operating an older piece of equipment vs. a newer one, or using an older tool vs. a newer one, 9 times out of 10, I chose the older option because it worked better and was much easier to work on/with. Although great advances in technology and innovation have made their way into tool and equipment manufacturing (which is a good thing), and manufacturing processes have become extremely streamlined, an unfortunate consequence to the average Joe is the inherent complexity in design and construction of tools and equipment. This point of discussion is mainly related to equipment.

Third, they were made in the USA. What average blue-collar worker wouldn't want to support another?

These days, especially in this economy, price dictates the majority of a person's decision making, professional technicians notwithstanding. For American tool manufacturers to be competitive, their tools need to be offered at competitive prices and the quality of tools needs to exceed that of foreign offerings to an appreciable degree. In the case of Snap On (hand tools), the quality of tools far exceeds most foreign offerings (Some European brands notwithstanding), but so does the price. I think the high price difference of many USA tool truck brands, especially Snap On, vs. foreign offerings is not to the same degree of difference in quality. I.e. A $150 Snap On ratchet is (probably) going to be much higher in quality than a $30 foreign offering, but the observable difference in quality is not worth the $120 price difference to the average Joe, who makes up the overwhelming majority of the tool consumer base.

When shopping for a tool, I always look around and explore foreign and domestic offerings for the tool that meets my standard of quality. For me, the price difference is usually justifiable to buy the better tool. I hope the better tool is USA made, and 9 times out of 10 it usually is, but many European companies make damn good tools at competitive prices to high end USA tools (Stahlwille, Hazet, Gedore, Facom, Rupes, Festool etc.).

I just bought a Lisle USA windshield wiper arm puller online, and when it arrived, I was extremely disappointed with the low quality of it. It was so bad that the claws on the bottom of the arms of the puller didn't even line up, so when pressure was applied, it was not in alignment with the stud (or battery terminal). What a piece of ****. I didn't buy that tool because it was made in the USA, I bought it because I had positive experiences with Lisle USA tools in the past, and thought this would be no different. I am likely going to return it and get a Facom (made in France) puller for more money, but will operate like it is designed to.

TLDR:
For me, "Made in USA" takes a backseat to quality. I would love it if all the best tools were still made here, but let's face it, they're not. If it's made in the USA but it's a piece of ****, I don't want it, and I'm slightly embarrassed that such an inferior product was made in the USA.

If you're still reading, you need to get back to work, or your wife and kids, or whatever else you should be spending time doing:thumbup:.
 

-Brent-

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Cman is my only reference for this topic, so I'm focusing on them, unfortunately.

I don't want my decent US-Made Cman tools (specifically, sockets) replaced with new, garbage quality should they break. It just happens that said garbage is produced off shore. That, to me, is why I've slowly sold off or given away my Cman stuff.

So, to answer your question, "Why?" - it made sense for me to buy it due to warranty and not knowing much else about tools. They were the easiest "decent" brand to get my hands on and, of course, there was the "American brand" connotation that I bought into.

But now I don't want a crappy quality/fit/finish new socket sitting in place of something that lasted a decade or more.

Then, I look at the Cman professional line - which I used professionally. Many of which now sit in my toolbox without an item to replace should something fail.

Luckily, I don't break a lot of tools anymore. I think that comes with owning more proper tools, understanding what's the right tool for the job, learning the correct way to do a task, etc. Still, I like knowing that there are certain tools/brands that have remained consistent quality-wise. It just happens that Cman isn't one of those brands and I happened to own a bunch of it.

I go out of my way to buy American-made products (the same way I go out of my way avoiding WalMart). However, I also go out of my way to find quality, which prevails. I'm happy when I find them both together.
 
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Fretters

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Location
South Yorkshire, England
Phased out completely trying to read through some of the USA made waffle. Not meaning to be tactless, argumentative or such, but what a load of twaddle. I seem to recall a very good vice manufacturer we had over here who was taken over by an American company. They've turned out shite ever since, so as much as I will say you've made some good stuff across there, you're also responsible for some right old shite, the same as any country is. And as to keeping our own in employment, christ, a good percentage of the work force in our countries probably aren't even originally from our countries, yet they come and work because the homegrown populace are either too idle, choosy else expect silly wages to bother doing the menial production work.

As much as I can understand the patriotism sentiment, there's a huge difference between being realistic and just plain zealot like. Shite is shite, regardless of where the label says it was made. Same with quality.
 
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