The Vault phase II planning

[kngkong]

Havent posted anything from the vault lately as Ive been having too much fun enjoying phase 1. Now that Ive gotten settled in and can envision a little better how I'd like to use the space, as well as any structural things that need attention I'd like to move onto planning Phase II.

We just went through a chilly winter here so I would love to insulate and line the walls. As well, hanging shelves etc directly to the concrete walls is just a bummer. Though before I go ahead and line anything I'd like to first attend to some drainage issues which I think would help some wet spots inside.

Here's the layout.
Garage is first floor of a two story building, stand alone living quarters above (future workshop expansion )

Garage is full length of lower floor

Back of garage is up against the hillside. Rear wall completely buried.

Rear wall. I think this wall was the cause of some leaking in the back part of the workshop. This was taken after burming up the dirt against the wall. Before, it sloped right down into the wall. My plans here are to install a french drain directing the water around the building and install proper guttering above.

This is the opposite side of the building built right up against an old wooden retaining wall. There is a gap between the concrete wall and retaining wall. I would like to install a french drain all along the side.

Here's some old pictures of how the inside looked a couple months ago. Wow, looks cleaner than it is now.

As we move inside, most of questions revolve around how best to finish the interior and organise the space. Also, what to do with the floor which is pretty rough concrete as present. Since Ive moved in Ive added my share of oil spills so a simple paint job might not be so simple. Ideally I would like to just level out the floor with cement or tile it.

Front garage:
I imagine I will replace the steel shelves with cabinets.

That corrugated plastic wall behind the bars leaks terribly in the high winds here. Would like to get some glass or glass block in there. You can see the damp corner below the left wall.

This is the unfinished ceiling. Doesnt look great but useful for storage. Probably just try to tidy this all up

Inner garage:
This is where all my tools are. Keep in mind I would like to line these walls so I can be more flexible with getting some cabinets on the walls etc. Replace the long shelves with closed cabinets for the most part.

You can see the state of the floor here. This one is in pretty good shape, outer garage is more cracked and uneven. One of the first things I would like to do in here is recover the workbench with two layers of ply. Would like to get cabinets and shelving above the workbench. That back. left corner is the damp one from the back wall of the building

Here is the vault side. Lots of wiring cleanup to do here.

Regarding lining the walls. Ive been seeing a lot of people gluing Polystyrene directly to the concrete, then anchoring a frame outside the foam for the gib or ply to be attached to. I thought a gap between wall and foam was important. Also, this method doesnt seem as strong as anchoring studs directly to the wall with foam between. Any comments on that. I guess tongue and groove foam right on the walls might make a really good seal against moisture?

Any other ideas you have for me Id love to hear them.
Ill keep posting the progress.
Cheers,
John

 

[onewaydave]

I don't know about your idea of "sealing" the walls with insulation. Unless I missunderstood. That back wall, if the source of water inside, will be a problem. You are right to attend to drainage and that may be enough to stop the water. Another option is to excavate and seal the wall from the outside and readress the drainage issue.

I am kinda lusting over the equipment you have in there. Nicely set up shop.

Dave.

 

[gabeancounter]

You having a problem with sound (echo)? Is that the reason for the foam. That is the problem I am working on right now. Thinking about attching framing directly against the walls and then maybe pine lap siding.

 

[red]

Great Idea on the french drain! Best way to deal with water is to keep it out of the structure. On my below grade basement I installed the foam directly to the concrete to keep condensation from occurring. I first coated the concrete with Thor-Seal to seal it.
Foam was attached with liquid nails and concrete screws. Framed out standard 2X4 wall which I spaced 1" away from the foam to avoid wicking issues. Easier to plumb the wall too!

 

[kngkong]

I don't know about your idea of "sealing" the walls with insulation. Unless I missunderstood. That back wall, if the source of water inside, will be a problem. You are right to attend to drainage and that may be enough to stop the water. Another option is to excavate and seal the wall from the outside and readress the drainage issue.

I am kinda lusting over the equipment you have in there. Nicely set up shop.

Dave.

Hi Dave, yeah, I was trying to figure out what the advantage was to putting the foam right on the wall as I always heard you were supposed to leave a gap. Anyway, sounds like it works well. I wouldnt expect that to 'seal' the water out.

Im loving my mill and lathe but Im getting tired of cutting steel by hand and need a bandsaw, wish I had more room.

john

 

[kngkong]

You having a problem with sound (echo)? Is that the reason for the foam. That is the problem I am working on right now. Thinking about attching framing directly against the walls and then maybe pine lap siding.

gabeancounter,

No, no problem with echo. Sounds like it would help you a lot though.
Cheers
john

 

[kngkong]

Great Idea on the french drain! Best way to deal with water is to keep it out of the structure. On my below grade basement I installed the foam directly to the concrete to keep condensation from occurring. I first coated the concrete with Thor-Seal to seal it.
Foam was attached with liquid nails and concrete screws. Framed out standard 2X4 wall which I spaced 1" away from the foam to avoid wicking issues. Easier to plumb the wall too!

Hey Red, yeah, I think working on the drainage will help a lot. Where/how is your 2x4 frame anchored to the wall? Top and bottom and in the middle with long bolts as its so far away?

Id would like to conserve as much space as possible. Thinking about using a 1" strapping frame anchored to the wall but concerned about strngth for hanging large shelves etc of it. I guess if its all lined with ply the resulting structure could be quite strong? What do you think? So its a good idea to leave a gap between foam and ply? could I do away with that by using a waterproof membrane? THough I imagine in time I would end up putting screw holes all over the membrane. Might be harder to plumb the wall too with a skinnier frame.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Is that back side of the structure where you've piled up the dirt made of wood? If so, it's going to rot out in no time flat.

 

[kngkong]

Hi Stuart,

Nah, its some kind of weather resistant board sold here. Anyway, its just temporary until I get the guttering and drain done.

 

[red]

Hey Red, yeah, I think working on the drainage will help a lot. Where/how is your 2x4 frame anchored to the wall? Top and bottom and in the middle with long bolts as its so far away?

Id would like to conserve as much space as possible. Thinking about using a 1" strapping frame anchored to the wall but concerned about strngth for hanging large shelves etc of it. I guess if its all lined with ply the resulting structure could be quite strong? What do you think? So its a good idea to leave a gap between foam and ply? could I do away with that by using a waterproof membrane? THough I imagine in time I would end up putting screw holes all over the membrane. Might be harder to plumb the wall too with a skinnier frame.

Attached the wall to the floor with concrete nails, in some case I predrilled cause got tired of the nail flying around the basement when it snapped. The top of the wall I attached to the floor joints. My concern was wicking moisture into the insulation. Mold wasn't a big issue back then but "wet or damp" insulation is useless. If you reduce the size of the studs to 2X3 and use OSB with glue and screws it won't be flimsy

Also have used the 1 1/2 Foam (Pink) insulation that has the spacing for furring strips. Except I used 2X material for strength. Just leaves a space between the foam and your finished wall. That will give you the smallest size wall but the foam option is always more $

 

[onewaydave]

... Im getting tired of cutting steel by hand and need a bandsaw, wish I had more room.

john

I bought a "Craftsman Pro" horizontal metal band saw at a farm auction a few years ago. How did I live without that marvelous invention until now? Small foot print, 16x30".

Don't know about "gluing" foam, I presume you mean Styrofoam vs foam rubber, but the locals just abut the pink closed cell Styrofoam to the concrete forms before the concrete pour. No glue on the new construction so I wouldn't think it's needed on old construction. The catch is that no glue or other substance will keep water out. Must move the water to somewhere that it won't get in, then the insulation will prevent condensation etc...


Dave

 

[kngkong]

I bought a "Craftsman Pro" horizontal metal band saw at a farm auction a few years ago. How did I live without that marvelous invention until now? Small foot print, 16x30".

Don't know about "gluing" foam, I presume you mean Styrofoam vs foam rubber, but the locals just abut the pink closed cell Styrofoam to the concrete forms before the concrete pour. No glue on the new construction so I wouldn't think it's needed on old construction. The catch is that no glue or other substance will keep water out. Must move the water to somewhere that it won't get in, then the insulation will prevent condensation etc...


Dave

Hi Dave
Yeah, thats what Im after. Hopefully when I get the place organised it will free up a little floor space. Also, there is a woodburner in there which I havent used yet and might think about removing or swapping with some other kind of heater. that would free up significant space.

Wasnt thinking putting up the foam was going to stop any water leaks. Jsut commenting on the two methods Ive seen people insulate concrete and wondering the advantages of both.

1. frame furring strips directly against the concrete wall and lay the foam in between.

2. glue the the polystyrene to the concrete then anchor furring strips through the foam.

im trying to save as much room as possible in the wall profile so how about. Vapour barrier against the concrete, furring strips anchored to the wall (I guess that would make some holes in the vapour barrier though), foam fit in between furring strips. Ply over it all.

???

 

[onewaydave]

Around here a finish out of the basement would use vapor barrier if none was used outside, 2x2, insulation and the surface substrate (ply or whatever).

If you have moisture on the inside concrete surface, the vapor barrier inside will just trap the moisture in that warm (relatively), dark, airless environment. It will keep it out of your framing, depending on how much over how long.

Where I live we have 60' of top soil. Lots of old time basements/cellars built before vapor barriers. They are all wet. There are several companies that specialize in fixing wet basements (I don't know how) and guarantee their work.

I am not trying to beat a dead horse or harp on you. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what I think I see. In the above posted picture of the vault door, is that water damage around the upper portion?

Regarding the metal band saw, check out this site. I may make that Rockwell a quest machine.

http://www.owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=80257

 

[kngkong]

HI Dave
Yeah, I think youre misinterpreting the picture and maybe I should have been clearer. The area by the vault door is just a poor patch in the concrete I think when the vault door was installed. I dont have wet walls or water damage or anything other than an occasional damp corner after huge rains which Im hoping will be completely fixed with proper drainage outside and attention to the guttering. So Im not considering the water to be a problem. THe outside of the wall is lined with what looks like the proper weather board and sealed at the joints. I still have not taped up the plastic to the wall to see what that test does but I dont have condensation or wet walls etc.

Im just asking this. I have seen two ways to frame out the inside of a concrete wall. One adding furring strips directly to the wall and laying foam in between and the other is gluing the foam directly to the wall and adding furring strips on top of that, then ply or sheetrock on top of that. Was just looking for comments if anyone had any on either way. Seems like framing directly to the wall would produce the better wall but that leaves wood lying against the concrete. Still unclear where the vapour barrier goes. SOrry for being so slow to figure this out but I think Ive got it now

Will look at your site about the saw. Thanks Dave!
Cheers
John

 

[kngkong]

just scored a nice little garage cabinet to add to the collection. Its nice and shallow and will work well next to the milling machine to organise tooling. Will probably outfit it with some shelves and tool holders on the inside.

I have my eyes on another set of small shallow metal shelves. Man buying storage is addicting.

 

[kngkong]

does anyone know what a cabinet like this was set up for? what would go into those holders?

 

[kngkong]

trench warfare, literally!

on my christmas break and just got home after a week away with my girlfriend. Six days at home will hopefully allow us enough time to tackle some good garage projects.

First is a little planning on getting the french drains in at the back and side of the garage. Just wanted to do some digging today to see whats underground and had a couple interesting suprises.

This is my first time doing this so please chime in with any suggestions

Going to try to dig as deep as reasonably possible and line the trench and concrete wall with plastic, then drain pipe and gravel. Will punch a hole in the concrete wall which extends right of the shed and install a drain pipe which will hook up to the rain gutter drains.

still going to dig a foot or two deeper

while getting near the end of the trench I discovered a pipe which looked like the start of a drainage system. I found the end of the pipe about a foot later when and began to get curious.

This doesnt make sense, a foot long plastic pipe with endcaps sealed on with silicone. Remember, the garage has a walk in vault and lots of bars.

This is what I found

making some measurements and get some materials picked up. This afternoon we're putting her Vespa engine back together.

 

[caper]

Cool! I'd say your previous owner was a bit of a survivalist.That's known as a pipe cache.Some guys hide guns,ammo and other gear in them.You may want to invest in a metal detector.You never know what might turn up.

 

[930dreamer]

I'd say it's time to start looking for buried stuff.

 

[kngkong]

Heh, yeah
Definitely good motivation for digging projects around the house

 

[kngkong]

one side done

back at work today. ugh...

Finished up the back perimeter drain behind the shop and am getting ready to finish up the far side. Hope this helps my moisture problems some. Impregnated plastic into the concrete wall with a mastic cement as deep as possible. Will hook drain pipes into the roof gutter drains when I get the chance. Peagravel and a weedmat around the drain pipe with 20mm drainage stone filling in the rest of the trench.

all work made very complicated by the fact my garage door cables broke two weeks ago and cant get them fixed until tomorrow. I have a trap door into the garage so all access has had to go through that. Did jack up the door a couple times, and with two people can just get it lifted.

havent found any more buried treasure yet

 

[Thruxton]

Had a basement wall waterproofed, at enormous expense because of the location, pretty much the same way you are going about it and it worked very well. Water pressure behind the wall was great enough to cause a spray ! inside the basement. Turned out to be a leaky main uphill for which the city took no responsibility at all. But I'm really writing because I think you will find more buried treasure, but I like the 2-wheeled treasure in your shop even more.

 

[kngkong]

Had a basement wall waterproofed, at enormous expense because of the location, pretty much the same way you are going about it and it worked very well. Water pressure behind the wall was great enough to cause a spray ! inside the basement. Turned out to be a leaky main uphill for which the city took no responsibility at all. But I'm really writing because I think you will find more buried treasure, but I like the 2-wheeled treasure in your shop even more.

Hey Thruxton
Glad to hear you think it might help. I would think the best way to do this would be to excavate the whole back of the building getting down to foundation, so hoping my quick fix does enough. Sounds like you had quite the leak and painful if the city didnt do anything about it.

Yes, hoping to find something to go along with the ammo.
By your screen name you must be into Triumphs too?

 

[Thruxton]

Well, we did excavate to the foundation bottom, and it was an epic. We lived on a street with very tight curves and no space between houses, so all the fill had to be stored offsite. But the curves on the road meant a 10 wheeler couldn't park anywhere near the excavation, so we had to use a double section placer to move the dirt from the ditch to the truck, probably about 30 feet. On top of this we lived on the banks of a protected waterway, so we had to file an Environmental Impact Statement to get approval for the project. The whole thing took about a month, so yu can imagine what it cost. But it worked, even better when the city found the mains leak a year and a half later...

First bike was a '62 Daytona, raced a beezer hornet a little (no front brakes on a road course is funnnnn!) then a Velocette Thruxton, one of the last built. The avatar isn't my bike, but identical before i did a few mods. Last bike was a '48 Velo KSS that I restored, so you can see my interest in your collection.

 

[kngkong]

wow, that does sound epic but sounds like it got done right. Im hoping my half way fix works well enough. I have a little more work to do on the other run and Ill be done with the drains with only the pipes to gutter drains left to do. Im just waiting for a good rain and will be very happy if I actually get to see some water coming out.

Sounds like a nice run of bikes you have had. You know what Im going through with the old brits Theres a 51 speedtwin, 66 bonnie, 41 Harley WL, 76 Vespa, 58 Trophy and a 37 harley knuckle which is almost done.

 

[kngkong]

All finished tying the drainage into the gutter drains and am awaiting to see any water flowing. Feeling like maybe I did something wrong or the trenches really need to fill to see any kind of flow because we had a good rain last night and I couldn't see anything.

Playing with ideas for finishing out the workshop in SketchUp. If anyone has any ideas on the set up I would love to hear them.

Am thinking of moving the vice shown by the yellow arrow. The dividers on the bench tops would be to try to keep grinding dust and drill swarf from getting to the 'clean' assembly area while allowing a little more space to hang stuff on them.

I also have to question whether I am adding too much bench space in case I decide to add another big machine someday and could use the room.

Need to be able to open the vault door when needed but would like to use the wall space so thinking about mounting storage shelves on the door itself.

Would plan on keeping the outer room for bikes and parts/paint/oil storage etc., and the sink, while building as much overhead storage as possible. Building the wall cabinets so they don't reach all the way to the floor might be a good idea so I can back the bikes under them and right against the wall saving a little more room.

So I guess this is my dream set up right now. Hope to be able to get started on it this year. Would love to hear your comments or advice.

Am looking into windows to replace the corrugated plastic sheets in the outer room which is probably first on the list.

 

[kngkong]

Damn, had a good rain last night and Im still getting water in as before. Makes me sick to think about digging everything out again to try to improve it.

Either Ive done something wrong or its coming in another way. So far Ive added perimeter drains to the back and right side, that leaves the left side. Maybe I didn't do something right though as I really wasn't noticing any flow in the pipes. Maybe I put too much pea gravel under the drain pipe so it really needs to fill before getting high enough to reach the pipe.

The only good I can see right now is maybe it will force me to do more excavating in the rear of the building making a nice big usable flat spot where there was a hillside before.

Plus I might find more treasures
trying to smile right now

 

[SuperSocket]

You can always put a garden hose in certain areas to try to locate the leak originating point?

 

[kngkong]

hey ockie

yes, that sounds like a good idea. i dreaded putting any more water into the workshop than needed but I may have to do that.

I was taking a close look at where the wet spot is and found there is a small hole where I think the majority of the water is coming in. I will still work on solving the problem correctly by getting the drainage to work correctly as there shouldnt be water getting down there but at some point I will try injecting sealant into the hole to complete the solution.

Really, its just a damp corner its not gushing or anything but it makes the room damp and smells like a wet basement and I would like to frame out that wall and rebuild the workbench so it needs to be fixed.

 

[e-tek]

Did I miss where you told where the Vualt leads to? Is it just a shallow vualt, or a room? By the looks of it, it goes under the dirt mound you put drainage in.


Good idea/job on the drainage too. I would also cut the bush back about 4 -6 feet from the garage - that'll allow any rain to drop right to the ground and soak in or hit the drainage rock.

Also looks like you could use a LOT more light in there - it'll make working in there WAY nicer!

Oh ya - Vapour barrier goes on the warm side!

 

[kngkong]

Did I miss where you told where the Vualt leads to? Is it just a shallow vualt, or a room? By the looks of it, it goes under the dirt mound you put drainage in.

Hey e-tek!

The vault goes into a styrofoam insulated room about 2m x 3m or there abouts and my head just touches the ceiling foam. Its pretty much a mess in there at the moment but there is lots to be done as far as organizing storage. Would really like to get some sturdy shelves into there. Will try to post some pics soon.

Unfortunately, the drainage wasn't completely successful. I never saw any flow. I ended up cutting the dirt bank farther, clearing the brush and built this extension to the roof. Drastic measures but I want to get this stuff solved any way possible.

This has helped a lot but I still get a damp corner after heavy rains. I haven't yet added a gutter onto the bottom end of the extended roof so it could be coming from there.

Have been thinking about injecting sealer into the hole at the bottom of the wall where the water comes in.

Lighting is definitely on the list as sometimes I have to resort to a flashlight. Maybe I should get some satisfaction out of improving the lighting instead of chasing this leak for a change

Thanks a lot for your advice its really appreciated!

 

[kngkong]

Big things going on the past week. I think Ive finally fixed my water seepage with some waterplug cement. It is holding so far with the last two days of medium rain. If it lasts through a couple more good heavy rains Ill start painting the area with a waterproof paint as the final measure. I also sealed up some other areas in the outer garage which we're causing some leaks. Still a little more work to do there.

I finished installing 5 dual 36 watt fluorescents in the outer garage tonight and what a difference! It makes it such a pleasure to be in there now I think its the best lit place in the whole house. Shortly after turning on the lights I heard tapping on the windows and it was several moths trying to get in. Bright enough, job done I really look forward to painting the outer garage to increase the brightness.

A while back I think it was E-tek was asking for more photos of the vault. So here they are. Apologies for the blurry photos, only have my phone while my girlfriend is away with my camera.

The vault is actually under where the wooden steps lead up to in this photo

the door

ajar. you can see how it steps down and the lack of height at the top of the door way but I can just about stand straight in there even with the foam insulation on the ceiling

looking inside

to the left

to the right

so a pretty good amount of room. just need to get it organised with lots of shelving

looked up the name on the door and they seem to be a pretty big supplier of safes

one last photo from outside

next on the list is the lighting in the back machine room, replacing the clear corrugated windows with something better and less leaky and rebuilding my workbench.

Thanks for everyones help on the forum and great ideas.

 

[kngkong]

In the process of rebuilding my bench and organizing the workspace.

Got this great old SK box today. Its in pretty good shape but could use a little clean up.

 

[Eloquaint]

If you spray that garage door a lighter color or put some insulation on it that would also brighten the room up a bit. The photo makes that look a little dark. Great little shop though. It has a lot more character than the standard attached garages you get these days. Good luck hunting down the remainder of your moisture issues, you've put in a lot of work!

 

[kngkong]

If you spray that garage door a lighter color or put some insulation on it that would also brighten the room up a bit. The photo makes that look a little dark. Great little shop though. It has a lot more character than the standard attached garages you get these days. Good luck hunting down the remainder of your moisture issues, you've put in a lot of work!

Hey Eloquint

The outer room with the garage door is plenty bright with the 5 new fixtures Ive put in, but insulation is definitely in the plan for warmth and sound. I also plan on painting the walls in there which will brighten it up even more but had been waiting to solve my leaks first. Now that the leaks are fixed I guess I should start picking out some colors. Probably go with something in the grey blues

Thanks for the comments