The vintage Blackhawk Thread

[d42jeep]

Thanks for your response, Todd. I had never seen any of those either. I’m surprised that Notlob seems to have quite a few. Very impressive.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I've got about a half a dozen of the Indian head sockets. I'll check the sizes.

EDIT: Disregard. I just remembered that I traded all mine to notlob.

 

[twertsy]

I've got about a half a dozen of the Indian head sockets. I'll check the sizes.

EDIT: Disregard. I just remembered that I traded all mine to notlob.

You shouldn't be trading those to anyone else...............not with all the Cadmium emanating from my shop.........

 

[Private Lugnutz]

You shouldn't be trading those to anyone else...............not with all the Cadmium emanating from my shop.........

Too true! But in this case I got something from 1925 in return. (I've been on a real 20's tear lately without really even realizing it.)

 

[Porto power man]

Blackhawk Porto Power tool cart

Hey guys found this on eBay. Thought you guys might be interested if your looking for one. I have one already.

eBay item number 132539717927

 

[930dreamer]

Those Blackhawk Porto Power carts look great.

 

[thehorse13]

Re: Blackhawk Porto Power tool cart

Hey guys found this on eBay. Thought you guys might be interested if your looking for one. I have one already.

eBay item number 132539717927

There are two on there now. Do you prefer red or white?

 

[d42jeep]

I have only 1 or 2 pieces with the Indian logo Don. I just never see it.

I couldn't believe I found one today after getting that set so recently.
-Don

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Your on a roll!

 

[notlob]

Mmmm... Nuggetts

 

[Dave455]

Here's a pic of the majority of my very early Blackhawk sockets. The aluminum roasting tray was an extremely rare early option....

Here’s my set.

All the parts except the speed brace and the small sockets top right are marked Blackhawk, though the Sliding T and extension are obviously newer. The ratchet and sockets appear to be identical to the above!

I bought this set from an old guy in my village about a decade ago.

He had been a tank driver during the war, had fought in North Africa and then France / Germany (including D Day) and was one of the most practical blokes I knew. Even in his 80’s he’d think nothing of dropping the sump off his car and swapping the big end bearings if he thought it needed it!

Despite sorting out the Africa Corps, he eventually gave in to his wife, who reckoned there should be room for at least one car in his large garage! Hence he disposed of a few bits including this set. He kept the best stuff of course...!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Dave,

Nice set!

While Blackhawk produced that pressed-steel type body ratchet for a long time in both reversible and non-reversible options, even after they were making forged ratchets with fine teeth gears and reversible action, I suspect that most of the pieces in your set are at least 15 years newer than most of the pieces in notlob's, which are very early (Indian-head logos and pressed-fit extensions).

Your extension with the drilled tommy bar hole probably had a rotating grip at one time, by the way.

Please take and post a close-up photo of the label under the lid.

Please also take a photo of a few representative sockets - if they're all the same, standing on end, so we can see the walls and the base, especially the markings.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Label says blackhawk chief wrench set, lock on, maybe early 40s?

 

[twertsy]

Label says blackhawk chief wrench set, lock on, maybe early 40s?

My guess would be mid to late 30s

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[Dave455]

Here you go!

I have a fair amount of Blackhawk (other than this) that belonged to my Grandfather. I know he bought it new, we think in the 1930’s, but the tools here appear to be a generation older!

These would have been unusual in the U.K. when new as they are in ‘American’ sizes, which were not common then!

Thanks for the info Lugz! Everything I know about Blackhawk I heard ‘first hand’ from my Grandfather, who was a serious fan! When I encounter totally different styles, I’m struggling!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Agreed. They don't look like what we call wartime. Then again, the war started for Britain in 1939 and the Treasury Dept was buying equipment and tools and sending them to our allies under the Lend-Lease program in 1940. Who knows the oldtimer in David's village may not have even had these in the war. I'm curious to see the sockets.

 

[twertsy]

Agreed. They don't look like what we call wartime. Then again, the war started for Britain in 1939 and the Treasury Dept was buying equipment and tools and sending them to our allies under the Lend-Lease program in 1940. Who knows the oldtimer in David's village may not have even had these in the war. I'm curious to see the sockets.

Those aren't Blackhawk sockets.

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[Private Lugnutz]

Here you go!

Those don't look like Blackhawk sockets, David.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Those aren't Blackhawk sockets.

Agreed! That reply was to you. I x-posted with David. That's why I said that I was curious to see the sockets, which I had not seen yet!

EDIT: By the way, those are the 1934 Lock-On patents on the label, not the 1938 patent.

 

[Dave455]

Aha! That would explain why they are not quite what I consider Blackhawk quality, and why I thought they were older!

Strange to find such a complete set though. Usually when stuff gets mismatched it's the sockets that get mismatched first!

 

[twertsy]

Aha! That would explain why they are not quite what I consider Blackhawk quality, and why I thought they were older!

Strange to find such a complete set though. Usually when stuff gets mismatched it's the sockets that get mismatched first!

I'd say those at S-K made sockets.

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[Dave455]

To make up for the disappointment, here are some Blackhawk sockets, mixed in with some Williams!

In the first picture, the middle row are British Standard (Whitworth) sockets, and all but about 3 are Blackhawk.

The bottom row are ‘American’ sizes, all Williams, and all ‘lend-lease’!

Grandfather originally stored his sockets and accessories, together with things like pliers and screwdrivers, in a First World War ‘S.A.A.’ box that he fitted out with wooden trays.

Of course, these were all British Standard sizes, but during the war he needed American sizes too and acquired the Williams. He eventually acquired another ammunition box and fitted it out with trays, one of which you see!

I still have both boxes and all the trays! One deep tray holds 1/2” drive handles, another 3/8” drive (Williams mostly) and so on!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

To make up for the disappointment...

Don't feel that way, Dave. That "Chief" set box is nice to see all on its own, and there are a few Blackhawk pieces in it that are consistent with the box. And your stories about your grandpop and the treasures you inherited are wonderful.

Now those sockets are wartime Lock-On style, by the way. Blackhawk dated a lot of their tools in this era. They may have a single number stamped on them, typically to the right of the BLACKHAWK marking, indicating the production year.

 

[Dave455]

Now that IS interesting, because I understood that these were pre war!

I can recall Grandfather talking about buying Blackhawk before the war, and I always assumed it was these tools. (I have a lot of handles too - Sliding T's, Breaker bar, extensions, universal etc).

The Williams would have been acquired in the early 40's when the family firm first acquired American trucks. (Diamond T's incidentally - which were very much to Grandfathers taste!) and had to acquire tools to suit. All the Williams was 'lend-lease' and simply blacked or unfinished. The noteworthy thing here is that the quality of the steel is obviously far more important than the finish, or lack of, as the condition of these indicates!

The British Standard tools would have predated the Williams, unless perhaps he had a chance to upgrade his British Standard tools and took it!

Grandfather was still turning wrenches into the 1980's, albeit only occasionally!

The family trucking firm got sold to Pickfords in the mid 50's, who promptly disposed of the Diamond T's! Grandfather considered buying one, but spares were a problem and he 'wasn't sure the family would want it' he told us one Christmas! He then got hit with crackers by myself, my cousin and my Dad simultaneously!

 

[Dave455]

Incidentally, the only markings on the Blackhawk sockets are the part no. prefixed by a 'W' (for Whitworth I always assumed) 'Blackhawk Made In U.S.A' and the size of the socket in decimals of an inch. Not even marked with the bolt size!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Now that IS interesting, because I understood that these were pre war!

I didn't say they were wartime, but the right style/type of socket for wartime, as opposed to the Indian-head logo style in notlob's pic above, or the Q.D. era. They could be mid-30's. It would depend on the model numbers (knurled band 60XX to 1938, three-groove 40XXX in 1939 >) and if they were date-coded.

Incidentally, the only markings on the Blackhawk sockets are the part no. prefixed by a 'W' (for Whitworth I always assumed) 'Blackhawk Made In U.S.A' and the size of the socket in decimals of an inch. Not even marked with the bolt size!

Interesting. I'm on my phone, Dave. I'll look more closely later. What are the patent numbers? And could you transcribe the markings (part numbers and sizes) as they appear? It's awfully hard to see and understand from afar via photos and descriptions. Also, I have a few WWII collector buddies in the UK, one of whom has a bunch of Blackhawk. I think I remember he had Whitworth sets. I'll check.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I see that they have three grooves, Dave, and share other features of the 401xx series sockets, which are wartime. The grooves alone date them to no earlier than 1938. So, if they're pre-WWII, they're barely pre-WWII. I have a few emails out to friends, but I did remember a few threads on another site (G503.com) and the prevailing thought among WWII collectors seems to be that they're wartime Whitworth with the AF size expressed in decimal form, as you alluded to. Examples I have seen were in onesy-twosies, so I think you have something quite special in that fairly complete range of sockets. In fact, I'd still like to have a list of every part number and size, and I will share the photos and the info on the other site, if you don't mind. It will be a big help to the UK guys trying to puzzle it out.

 

[Dave455]

All interesting! Thanks for your time Lugz!

Markings on a representative socket are ‘W92N’ ‘BLACKHAWK MADE IN U.S.A.’ ‘.920’

Then ‘U.S.PATS. 1927844 RE.19287

All the other sockets have similar marks, as do all the handles and extensions. All the sockets feature the 3 grooves.

I seem to have 2 of most sockets, so looking at it sensibly there appears to be one ‘set’ of maybe 8 sockets from about 3/8 BS up, and another of maybe 11 sockets from about 1/4 BS up. Looking carefully, one ‘set’ has slightly more yellow chrome than the other.

 

[Dave455]

Here are the pics.

I know this sounds really stupid, but handling these things today, they even SMELL wartime!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

All the other sockets have similar marks, as do all the handles and extensions.

Thanks, Dave. If you don't mind, would you please jot down the other part numbers and sizes in a list and post it? Understand that these sockets are not included in the 1939 or 1943 Blackhawk catalogs. There is no list of these Blackhawk sockets by part number and size anywhere. So my friends are piecing the list together empirically, a few sockets at a time, as they find them.

This is what they have found and recorded so far:

- W60N /.600
- W101N / 1.010
- W110N / 1.100
- W120N / 1.200

I know this sounds really stupid, but handling these things today, they even SMELL wartime!

Haha! You've got the WWII collecting fever now. I can't say that I can tell the difference between pre-war, wartime, and post-war tools by smell, but I can guarantee you that I can identify a WWII jeep by its smell. It has a very distinctive odor. Ask any WWII jeep owner and they'll tell you the same thing.

 

[Dave455]

Yes, no problem. It'll probably be tomorrow now as it's late here, but I'll get on it!

I spent some years in the British defence industry, so got used to the different smells, of the oils and greases used.

Difficult to tell pre war from wartime, but the 50's stuff smells very different!

If you walk into an armoury, you can tell if there's wartime vintage stuff straight off, despite the passage of 70 years, and despite many cleanings!

 

[Dave455]

Here's a list of what I've got.

The first two figures are marked on each socket. I've added the sizes they fit!

W52N .525 1/4W 5/16BS

W60N .600 5/16W 3/8BS

W71N .710 3/8W 7/16BS

W82N .820 7/16W 1/2 BS

W92N .920 1/2W 9/16BS

W101N 1.010 9/16W 5/8BS

W110N 1.100 5/8W 11/16BS

W120N 1.200 11/16W 3/4BS

W130N 1.300 3/4W 7/8BS


I have two of each size (except two), which makes me suspect that I have at least one set of 1/4 to 3/4 Whit.

For the uninitiated, up till the war, one socket (e.g. .600) would have fitted a 5/16 Whitworth (or BSW) bolt. The same socket would have fitted a 3/8 BSF bolt. From the war onwards, they put the smaller heads on Whitworth bolts too, so just the BS sizes are relevant. (And that's one way you can easily recognise pre war equipment - the bolt heads are bigger!)

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I've added the sizes they fit!

Very thoughtful of you. Thanks. This is terrific.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Dave,

I thought you might enjoy seeing some photos a WWII tool collector friend of mine in the UK sent me. The case has a different configuration of compartments than yours, but note that the decal is identical. It has a few Blackhawk Gripline handles, a full range of Blackhawk 401xx sockets - all with 1941 or 1942 date codes, and four (4) of the Blackhawk WxxN BSW sockets. He also took some close-up comparison shots of a couple 401xx and WxxN sockets. I don't know why they didn't date code them, but I think there's zero doubt they were contemporary production.

 

[Dave455]

Thanks for that Lugz.

Yes, sockets seem to be identical in style to mine. I also have that speed brace, universal, and I suspect that breaker bar too.

Of particular interest is the ratchet. That must have been the one my Grandfather owned, but wore out!

I would absolutely love to acquire one of those, but I'm not fancying my chances!

I also have some bi-square and drag link sockets, 2 sliding T's and a selection of extensions!

 

[ryan20021982]

Got this in a lot of tools in very good condition, 3/8 spinner handle

View media item 82244

 

[twertsy]

Got this in a lot of tools in very good condition, 3/8 spinner handle

View media item 82244

Nice!

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[woodland_hank]

Mmmm... Nuggetts

Did one of the nugget type ratchet handles have the ability to extend?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Did one of the nugget type ratchet handles have the ability to extend?

Yes. Model number 39996. The handle unscrewed until it could be pulled out and locked in place. The standard "free-wheeling" ratchet (39997) did not. Nuggets came out in 1939, but I don't think that ratchet (the extensible 39996) was available until later, c. 1947. EDIT: I could be wrong about that. I'd have to double-check. Or someone else might know for sure.

 

[SAA44-40]

Not very local to me, but looks like a clean example. SJ23 $150