Thick exterior insulation poured concrete wall

[gotham]

I'm starting to kick around ideas for a shop build. Current thinking is: roughly 30x40, ~12' ceilings, attic trusses, metal roof. The site is sloping so depending on orientation two walls of the shop will be partially sub grade probably 6' max. This got me thinking of having all the walls poured up to the full height.

My question is how do I insulate and attach siding to the above grade exterior of poured concrete walls? I'm in Colorado so I'd like an option for more than 2" of rigid foam (R10). Can I get SIPs with thin (non structural) OSB?

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

I've used these guys but there are plenty of other brands. No affiliation, not promoting though I was extremely happy with them. Google ICF, insulated concrete forms, etc.

https://www.fab-form.com/

 

[gotham]

Thanks for the reply. I'm familiar with ICFs and I may use them. I don't want the insulation on the interior as that would require interior sheetrock. I also like the idea of having the thermal mass of the wall on the inside of the insulation. I did find an ICF company that has a system that can accommodate foam on the outside and plywood or mgo on the inside.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[wssix99]

I did find an ICF company that has a system that can accommodate foam on the outside and plywood or mgo on the inside.

Here's one. Many other exist. http://polycreteusa.net/polycreteusa/2016/12/30/polycrete-big-block-v1-series

By the time you get into all the fancy temporary form work for something like this, you will probably be better off with traditional ICF and paying someone to put up drywall.

I also like the idea of having the thermal mass of the wall on the inside of the insulation.

I'm pretty sure you are in the wrong climate for this idea. If I recall correctly, the exposed thermal mass on the inside will **** heat out of your garage and send it out. (Really bad if you are heating the garage!) This design should keep the space cool/cold in every season. Likewise, if you put the insulation on the inside then you'll be hot in every season. Insulation on both sides should give you a 2 season (heating and cooling) space.

 

[Copymutt]

I’ve seen several ICF walls that leak water into crawl spaces and into basements.
Don’t know if a shortcoming of the product or the contractor or both.

 

[850xpeps]

I’ve seen several ICF walls that leak water into crawl spaces and into basements.

Don’t know if a shortcoming of the product or the contractor or both.

Short coming of the contractor I’d say.

Lots of basements with no water protection don’t leak. A big key is letting the water flow down rather than apply pressure. Drainage board or dimple board does this. I installed blueskin and simple board. Although now dimple is apparently enough according to icf suppliers. But for the cheap price of blueskin why not.

Have done a full 14’ wall shop 40x80 a couple years ago all icf. Worked nice.

 

[gotham]

Here's one. Many other exist. http://polycreteusa.net/polycreteusa/2016/12/30/polycrete-big-block-v1-series

By the time you get into all the fancy temporary form work for something like this, you will probably be better off with traditional ICF and paying someone to put up drywall.

I'm pretty sure you are in the wrong climate for this idea. If I recall correctly, the exposed thermal mass on the inside will **** heat out of your garage and send it out. (Really bad if you are heating the garage!) This design should keep the space cool/cold in every season. Likewise, if you put the insulation on the inside then you'll be hot in every season. Insulation on both sides should give you a 2 season (heating and cooling) space.

I'll check out polycrete. Thanks. The thermal mass isn't exposed, it's insulated! Same idea as a slab insulated from the ground with hydronic heat.

Short coming of the contractor I’d say.

Lots of basements with no water protection don’t leak. A big key is letting the water flow down rather than apply pressure. Drainage board or dimple board does this. I installed blueskin and simple board. Although now dimple is apparently enough according to icf suppliers. But for the cheap price of blueskin why not.

Have done a full 14’ wall shop 40x80 a couple years ago all icf. Worked nice.

I'm aware that drainage and waterproofing are important with concrete walls although I haven't fully dug into that research.

I'd rather have interior concrete walls than sheetrock plus I'm hoping it will save material cost and labor if I hire it out.

 

[wssix99]

The thermal mass isn't exposed, it's insulated! Same idea as a slab insulated from the ground with hydronic heat.

A vertical wall insulated on one side is a lot different than a slab insulated on the bottom. The thermal gradients are much different and the heating mechanism is also different.

In a hydronic slab, excess heat goes in and the slab acts as a radiator. A bare wall with insulation on the outside will act as a heat sink.

Heat will always move from hot to cold. The foam only makes the transfer slow down.

In an ICF wall insulated on both sides, the core reaches an average temperature of the point between the inside temperature and outside temperature. The greater the gradients, the faster heat will move through the system.

In an ICF wall insulated on just the cold side, the core will **** heat quickly until it reaches the temperature of the inside. This increases the gradient and more heat will move faster through the system. (compared to the ICF wall insulated on both sides)

The hydronic slab works differently because the ground under the insulation helps. It also holds onto heat (lost from the floor) over time and the gradient is relatively small compared to the wall that has cold circulating air on the other side of it.