Thinking bout being a tool and die maker.

[Joshthewelder]

Hi my names Josh im 16. I am very interested in metalworking. I can weld, i have ran a lathe, vertical mill and cnc mill. I have also been interested in welding for awhile now. After alot of thinking I think I wanna take up tool and die making, i will be attending precision machining school next year. What your guys thoughts I wanna decided between being a welder, machinist, tool and die maker, or a mill wright. Lets hear your thoughts. Thank you!

 

[Smokenarrow]

Tool and die in this area (W.PA) in the past has been a very lucrative career. Since the recession in 2008, business has decreased and much of the work load has been outsourced overseas. Singapore of all places is now the hotbed of machining. Business has started to pick up but as you can imagine, US companies can not compete with overseas. If I were looking to get into this for a career choice, I would concentrate on both learning the basics of manual machining and programming CNC, not just running them. If you can program and troubleshoot said programs, you will find a career.
I USED to work closely with several machine shops in the area R&D'ing and qualifying specialty mounting systems for laser optics. I was forced to send the work overseas by upper management, and for that reason, I quit the company and got out of manufacturing totally. If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[larry_g]

Are you a math wizard? Tool and die is a great job but requires a detail oriented person. If you are happy with mediocre work and a C averaged in school then your probably not of the mindset to make it in the field. If you strive for perfection and are willing to start over to make things perfect then you have the mind set. Don't kid yourself in this, only the best in the field make journeymen T&D guys. The rest are at somewhat of a lower tier..

lg
no neat sig line

 

[CJM8515]

Agreed, you need a strong math background. My grandfather was a tool and die maker in the late 50's till about 1970 and they did EVERYTHING by hand. He told me they would spend days just doing calculations so they wouldnt make a mistake when they were making whatever it was. It wasnt uncommon for 3 guys to do the same problems and compare answers. He also said you need a very strong algebra, calculus, geometry and other high level math

 

[PugetDude]

True tool and die makers and skilled machinists (as opposed to machine operators who think they are machinists) are in high demand and can make a lot of money. With the looming resurgence in manufacturing, every US manufacturing plant is going to need highly skilled, specialized labor to maintain, update, and troubleshoot tooling and machinery- the tooling can be outsourced but the local hands-on support can't.

Get a copy of Machinerys Handbook and sleep with it beside your bed for the next five years...and good luck and congratulations on an excellent career choice!

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

We are constantly adding Tool and Die Makers to the apprentice program at Cummins, mostly plant support and some in the prototype machine shop...

Great Career if you find the right employer...

 

[Twiggss]

You're 16, you have time to learn all of those skills and more.

 

[Ohmthis]

My late step dad and my youngest brother are/were tool and die makers. With the way technology is you really need to be able to read, write, and trouble shoot cnc programs and equipment. Typically they are held very high as skilled trades are concerned and paid well. Math is extremely important. Good luck

 

[tdkkart]

CNC PROGRAMMING, not operating.
The new machines that are hitting the floor now have very little that can be changed program wise on the floor by the operator, other than a few tool parameters, all the rest of it has to be done by the programmer in his office. Operators are nothing but trained monkeys taught to push the flashing button. The true machinists aren't on the production floor.
We just started up a new sheet metal punch, next nothing can be changed on the floor other than basic setup and tool parameters.

Now, if you want do OK, you can get into the troubleshooting and repair side of it. Decent money, and you'll always have a job as long as the shop is up and running. You're roughly equivalent to a firefighter, other than preventative maintenance stuff you pretty much sit around and wait for somebody to F&*K something up.

 

[Tronyadorable]

Join the boilermakers union and prepare to travel(move)

 

[PugetDude]

Join the boilermakers union and prepare to travel(move)

Boilermakers don't do Tool and Die work; they weld tanks and pressure vessels.
Machinists do Tool and Die work.

 

[DangerousDan55]

T&D, machinist € millwright work is great careers. I spent 34 years at Shell Oil as a millwright/machinist. We worked on pumps, blowers, conveyors, gas powered compressors which had 15" power pistons & 36" compressor pistons. We tore them down, made new shafts & other parts, reassemble to spec, installed, & put them back in service. Very rewarding.
Down in the Houston area there is a shortage of journeyman millwright/machinists. Not many ccompanies have training programs anymore, here in Houston.
Develop your trade skill & Houston is a great place to work.
Get a job here, keep you attitude in check, put away for retirement & you Will have a million dollars when you retire. Don't ask me how I know. Many of my work buddies are Happily retired. So am I.
Good luck.

 

[mrodgers]

Tool and die in this area (W.PA) in the past has been a very lucrative career. Since the recession in 2008, business has decreased and much of the work load has been outsourced overseas. Singapore of all places is now the hotbed of machining. Business has started to pick up but as you can imagine, US companies can not compete with overseas. If I were looking to get into this for a career choice, I would concentrate on both learning the basics of manual machining and programming CNC, not just running them. If you can program and troubleshoot said programs, you will find a career.
I USED to work closely with several machine shops in the area R&D'ing and qualifying specialty mounting systems for laser optics. I was forced to send the work overseas by upper management, and for that reason, I quit the company and got out of manufacturing totally. If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me.

Funny you say this from Kittanning when Penn United has a giant billboard on 422 stating they are hiring

Of course this is probably just the mentioned machine operators for a half decent working man's wage for struggling rather than getting to go on vacation and afford household bills middle class salaries.

 

[7echo]

Seems like most guys are on the same page-

CNC- the programmers are making the best money. And if you learn how to model things in the computer you will be even better off.

There are many button pushers now as opposed to real machinists.

Millwright- Good over all skills to develop, would likely be employable at many companies, though usually not at the same pay scale as a T and D guy. A Millwright can do some machining, some electrical, some plumbing, some welding, some mechanic-ing. Most machinist I know have all those skills, but this is a job shop area were all rounders are(were)valuable. There are machinist in some areas that spend 90 percent of their time on a lathe and do not have mill, grinder, etc., skills.

What Twiggs said, though, is best.

 

[Joshthewelder]

Im working on getting a hand book lol just gotta get money im a little broke. haha,do you know of any specific books that i should look into

 

[PugetDude]

There is a good recommendation in post five…

 

[CNGsaves]

Learn all you can, but keep your options open. Don't try to specialize so narrowly that you pidgeon-hole yourself into too small of job field.

Take all the college-prep Math & Science classes that you can. Clepping out of those in college will save you lots of money and time. Some high schools actually get college credits without ever having to pay the college, or partial rate.

With an eye toward precision, there are lots of different avenues like engineering, or also quality assurance (whether that be the process or parts themselves . . . ISO 9000 or ISO 9001 certified).

Another great area to get expertise that will pay off later . . . CAD/CAM software knowledge. Pursue all that you can. Knowledge is power and money.

 

[MagnumForce]

Hi my names Josh im 16. I am very interested in metalworking. I can weld, i have ran a lathe, vertical mill and cnc mill. I have also been interested in welding for awhile now. After alot of thinking I think I wanna take up tool and die making, i will be attending precision machining school next year. What your guys thoughts I wanna decided between being a welder, machinist, tool and die maker, or a mill wright. Lets hear your thoughts. Thank you!

I am all of those things and I do all of those things. I am not specialized into one of them but do all of them. I am an Industrial Maintenance Tech/Process Integrator. I really really love my job but was not so keen when doing only one thing all the time when I was only a fabricator.

 

[Tronyadorable]

Boilermakers don't do Tool and Die work; they weld tanks and pressure vessels.
Machinists do Tool and Die work.

Great. Like I didn't know that.
There's no future for a tool and die man in murka. The gig is up.
It'll be a dime a dozen job 15 years from now, especially since more robotics become affordable. A boilermaker is a different movie and something I think he'd enjoy.
The guy is 16. I'm making a sane suggestion from an old fart who has seen the "change" since I was building rail with a sledgehammer and gas drills-saws with 30 other guys. Now it's 6 guys with remotes and ribbon rail doing miles/day.

 

[MagnumForce]

Wrong, robotic stuff still requires tool and die makers. Who do you think makes the tooling for the robots? I don't think you understand how it works... and the American auto market is growing big time right now. Every little shop or tier 2 supplier needs tool and die guys. But what do I know, I just have been in the business for 15 years.

It is hard for us to find good guys!

Perhaps you need to check out mikeroweworks.com

 

[PugetDude]

Great. Like I didn't know that.
There's no future for a tool and die man in murka. The gig is up.
It'll be a dime a dozen job 15 years from now, especially since more robotics become affordable. A boilermaker is a different movie and something I think he'd enjoy.
The guy is 16. I'm making a sane suggestion from an old fart who has seen the "change" since I was building rail with a sledgehammer and gas drills-saws with 30 other guys. Now it's 6 guys with remotes and ribbon rail doing miles/day.

Sometimes it is better to have some of the questions instead of all of the answers…

 

[Tronyadorable]

Sometimes it is better to have some of the questions instead of all of the answers…

Good reply from an obviously intelligent guy.
Maybe head to PM with this one.

 

[chadman]

I think a lot of the replies in this thread have a machinist confused with a true tool & die maker. The main difference being that machinists typically just machine parts to prints. Some do their own programming and some don't but either way they are just making components, often many of the same thing. A true tool & die maker is more involved with the workings of the end product be it a stamping die, gauge, fixture etc. Typically they make only one or just what is necessary for the project they are working on. They also spend a lot of time hand fitting and fine tuning to make whatever the project may be run smoothly.

Like the OP I live in Ohio and around here tool & die jobs pay well and are in demand IF you have the right skill set. No I'm not talking the stand in front of a CNC mill/lathe and change out parts skill set. I'm talking the skill set of a true journeyman tool & die maker. I have been in the tool & die trade for 18 yrs. now and have never been unemployed for even a minute with lots of overtime available if I've wanted it. This trade has been great to me and I would recommend it to anyone but want to emphasize for you not to let yourself end up getting pigeon holed as a machine operator somewhere. Make sure you find a place that will teach you a well rounded skill set.

 

[jdepiero]

all good posts, but be sure you are good in math. I started 40 years ago as a apprentice tool and die maker, got my journeyman's papers then went to night school to get an mechanical engineering degree. the money was always good and I was never out of work. I now run a 75 employee metal stamping plant in NE Ohio and we run perpetual ads for Tool and die makers. Learn as much as you can. Manual machining, CNC programing, welding, inspection etc.
the more you know, the more valuable you will be. See if you have any vocational schools in your area that teaches tool and die making. Machining is only the tip of the iceberg. The fun part is designing and building the tools and dies.!
old timers like me are getting ready to retire, and we need young guys like you to fill the gap.
good luck!

 

[MagnumForce]

Our plant is in NW Ohio, 700 employees in 4 facilities all automotive and we do all our own tooling and machine building plus build some stuff for other companies. If you are good you could have a job tomorrow. We also bring kids in from votech who spend half the day at school and half with us and several are making 18 bucks an hour the day they graduate high school. In this part of Ohio where the cost of living is very low, that is damn good money!

 

[Kevin54]

Boilermakers don't do Tool and Die work; they weld tanks and pressure vessels.
Machinists do Tool and Die work.

Tool & Die makers do tool & Die Work. There is a big difference between a T&D and just being a machinist. A T&D takes a lot more mathematical skills than what a machinist does. Huge difference.

 

[MagnumForce]

Tool and die is all encompassing.

 

[St-rider]

Welding, lathe, mill and cnc knowledge is a good place to start.
Learn cnc programming and 3d modeling.
Precision grinding and knowledge of GTD (Geometric Tolerencing and Dimensioning) will help boost your pay.
We have machinist's and cnc operators that machine the parts but the +/-.0002" dimensions are where the grinders show their stuff.
Assembly of precision industrial tooling using CMM's is a good talent to have.
A good book is "Handbook of Jig and Fixture Design" from SME.

 

[Kevin54]

Most T&D Makers have to hold 10% of what a machinist tolerance is. So say that a machinist has a .010 tolerance, A T&D has 10% of that which means that he has to hold his tolerance within .001.

But on the other hand, if you have the balls and think that you can cut the mustard plus lick the jar......by all means,, go for it. T&D is a whole different world, but an exciting one. I did it for 30+ years and never once got bored with it. And the rougher the challenge, the better the job was.

But it's not something that you can just bid on and get. Normally you have t have a four year apprenticeship to get your Journeyman's card. Things may have changed some. but tool & die is not just a job, it is a career.

 

[blazentrout]

Great. Like I didn't know that.
There's no future for a tool and die man in murka. The gig is up.
It'll be a dime a dozen job 15 years from now, especially since more robotics become affordable. A boilermaker is a different movie and something I think he'd enjoy.
The guy is 16. I'm making a sane suggestion from an old fart who has seen the "change" since I was building rail with a sledgehammer and gas drills-saws with 30 other guys. Now it's 6 guys with remotes and ribbon rail doing miles/day.

Robots dont work real well for 95% of the stuff that comes into the shops i have worked at. they may work great at a production machine shop.

Wrong, robotic stuff still requires tool and die makers. Who do you think makes the tooling for the robots? I don't think you understand how it works... and the American auto market is growing big time right now. Every little shop or tier 2 supplier needs tool and die guys. But what do I know, I just have been in the business for 15 years.

It is hard for us to find good guys!

Same for us on finding good people.

I think a lot of the replies in this thread have a machinist confused with a true tool & die maker. The main difference being that machinists typically just machine parts to prints. Some do their own programming and some don't but either way they are just making components, often many of the same thing. A true tool & die maker is more involved with the workings of the end product be it a stamping die, gauge, fixture etc. Typically they make only one or just what is necessary for the project they are working on. They also spend a lot of time hand fitting and fine tuning to make whatever the project may be run smoothly.

Like the OP I live in Ohio and around here tool & die jobs pay well and are in demand IF you have the right skill set. No I'm not talking the stand in front of a CNC mill/lathe and change out parts skill set. I'm talking the skill set of a true journeyman tool & die maker. I have been in the tool & die trade for 18 yrs. now and have never been unemployed for even a minute with lots of overtime available if I've wanted it. This trade has been great to me and I would recommend it to anyone but want to emphasize for you not to let yourself end up getting pigeon holed as a machine operator somewhere. Make sure you find a place that will teach you a well rounded skill set.

Most people dont know the difference between a production machinist/operator and machinist that does tool and die stuff. they are polar opposites

Most T&D Makers have to hold 10% of what a machinist tolerance is. So say that a machinist has a .010 tolerance, A T&D has 10% of that which means that he has to hold his tolerance within .001.

But on the other hand, if you have the balls and think that you can cut the mustard plus lick the jar......by all means,, go for it. T&D is a whole different world, but an exciting one. I did it for 30+ years and never once got bored with it. And the rougher the challenge, the better the job was.

But it's not something that you can just bid on and get. Normally you have t have a four year apprenticeship to get your Journeyman's card. Things may have changed some. but tool & die is not just a job, it is a career.

Kind of funny on the tolerance statement kevin, now a days its us machinist that have to hold the tighter tolerance and the die makers are more assemblers and spotters in the presses with the odd trouble shooting now and then. its changed a boat load in the last 10 years(even the last 5) for how things are machined and built. Im a machinist doing stamping dies now running a small bridge mill (60" by 120" table).

 

[abk241]

Tool and die work is precise and you have to be meticulous in carrying out each machining step.
The die-sets we made when I was apprenticed in a T&D shop were all one of a kind....no need for programming a CNC machine when you are doing this type of work.
I'm not saying you shouldn't learn programming - the more you know, the more options you have.

That being said, you are young...take the courses that interest you now and you will find out which areas holds that interest.

 

[blazentrout]

To the op, if you think that you want to get into T&D, get a broom. seriously
At your age you could do what a friend of mine son did and started by being a clean up kid and seeing what goes on in a shop(and maybe get school credits). By doing this you may get an idea what path/road you want to go down. If you are reliable worker with the right aptitude, the shop may give you and apprenticeship and pay for schooling to boot.

I have spent the last 18years working as a machinist in T&D, first in a mold and die shop and now in a shop that builds stamping dies. When i got my card, i had to put in 10,000hrs plus collage time to get it. I was lucky and my shop paid for it all and even paid me to go to school. as the low man on the totum pole kind of plan on being on nights (it kind of *****)for a couple of years after you get some training.
by what i have seen it take a person that can think(right mind set), use computers, has problem skills,a willingness to work long hours, does not mind getting a little dirty, some pride in what they do and is willing to spend some money on tools to succeed as a t&d machinist. its an always evolving trade that has been good to me.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Another vote for apprentice. Any hands-on exposure is good exposure. Only you can decide what ultimately floats your boat.

Do what ever you have to, to get your hands on a 3D CAD program and play with it. Solidworks and Autodesk Inventor are both good choices.

If you get it the legit way, ignore everything the CAD companies say on their sites about requirements to get a student version. Call a distributor and tell them your age. They can and will bend rules to expand their user base to young students of any grade level. You can also talk to your school as they have major influence with software manufacturers.

 

[onewaydave]

Me too. I'm a 63 year old Emergency Physician. I hope you haven't given up reading these posts yet.

Everything said is sage advise.

But. When I was your age, the oil field was a great place, albeit dangerous, to make money. It kinda hit the skids a couple of times over the next 40 years and is now a great opportunity, again. No body except my Dad, who was an independent geologist, predicted that at the time, and he didn't know nothing.

It doesn't matter what you choose to do/train for, 99% chance you will do something else by the time you can slow down enough to catch your breath. Your best bet is to:

1. Learn everything you can, then nobody can fault you for not knowing something.
2. Learn it the best you can, then if it doesn't come out right it is because you chose not to do it right.
3. Learn what the teacher has best to offer. Don't expect to learn how to run a lathe from someone that never has.
4. Be adaptable. Learning is adaptation and mastery, not necessarily interest. Every career has things that you have to do every day that are NOT interesting, but have to be done.

Dave, wishing you the best on whatever you choose.