It's fee avoidance and puts honest seller's at a competitive disadvantage. Go ahead and get this seller booted.
This Ebay seller
- Thread starter wafrederick
- Start date
It's fee avoidance and puts honest seller's at a competitive disadvantage. Go ahead and get this seller booted.
I'm not sure what state you live in. But in California, a good portion of the shareholder wealth that Meg Whitman extracted from ebay went into a failed campaign for governer. $164 million is a lot of ebay profits to spend on trying to win a job that pays $173,987 per year.
Are you making your claim based on your sales profit after expenses? That is impressive if you're able to make such profit.
Are you making your claim based on your sales profit after expenses? That is impressive if you're able to make such profit.
If $29 defines fee avoidance, can you tell me what amount defines what is not fee avoidance? If you cannot then the rule is stupid and should be changed.
MartyO
Well-known member
Do a little research and find out how many laws use the word "reasonable" instead of defining some specific amount.
The use of the word reasonable is like what the the Supreme Court said about ***********, I will know it when I see it.
With respect to fees the law usually states "reasonable and customary" in most cases. Our family trust uses this language, as does our will and one other contract we entered into. But, when we're not around anymore it is up to the trustee and if necessary a court to determine what is reasonable and customary if something goes into dispute with excessive fees. Ebay doesn't use the word "customary" anywhere that I could find. "Customary" is important because metrics from precedent are used to determine what is reasonable at any instance in time.
djb2
Well-known member
Someone already mentioned it in an earlier post, but a useful question is "If I win, can I pick up the item and not pay the shipping fee."
There are many sellers with high shipping fees that charge the shipping fee even if you pick up, or explicitly list an extra pick-up fee.
There are many sellers with high shipping fees that charge the shipping fee even if you pick up, or explicitly list an extra pick-up fee.
As far as what's reasonable for shipping, how about the actual shipping cost? Sure it doesn't compensate you for the time it takes to go to the post office. I've sold books on Amazon. They charge the buyer shipping cost and pay you a certain amount to ship that book "media rate." For some light books you might make a few cents (Amazon gives you more than it costs to ship) but for any heavy book, you might lose a couple of dollars. No one complains about it because those are the rules, like it or leave it.
You think your time is worth a few bucks...it probably is. When you buy a ratchet from sears.com, how much is added for handling? 2-4 dollars maybe? How about that as being reasonable?
If we're gonna play this ******** game and pretend no one has any idea what is reasonable, how about $100 shipping and handling? I think it's reasonable to consider what a real online retailer might charge and what you might find reasonable to pay when you buy online.
Ebay is there to make money..... for them, not you. They don't care about you, they don't care about fair. If they see someone scamming them, they're gonna close down that loophole.
Thanks goodness there is CL. No fees to post, no fees to buy, no fees to sell, no sales tax.
You think your time is worth a few bucks...it probably is. When you buy a ratchet from sears.com, how much is added for handling? 2-4 dollars maybe? How about that as being reasonable?
If we're gonna play this ******** game and pretend no one has any idea what is reasonable, how about $100 shipping and handling? I think it's reasonable to consider what a real online retailer might charge and what you might find reasonable to pay when you buy online.
Ebay is there to make money..... for them, not you. They don't care about you, they don't care about fair. If they see someone scamming them, they're gonna close down that loophole.
Thanks goodness there is CL. No fees to post, no fees to buy, no fees to sell, no sales tax.
alex71
Well-known member
By your logic, what would be a reasonable price for the product that you're selling? your actual cost?
Sorry, but that just doesn't work for commercial enterprise. Whether you see it or not, sellers are being compensated for handling and packing material--either by building it in to the price of the product or by marking up shipping cost.
I also sell used books on Amazon. The spiff you back a set amount as you said and you eat the rest but everything is transparent and you know this when you list a heavy book. I have no problems with that. In fact, I have stacks of media mail stamps pre-purchased with the various amounts needed to pull this off. The price I list books at is the price I would be satisfied with. It's far different from an auction.
But, unlike ebay, amazon determines what is reasonable. On ebay, reasonable means whatever they want it to mean on any particular day. That sort of sloppiness is a product of what you mention regarding ebay is just in business to make money. If they really cared about this they would give it some thought and come up with unassailable guidelines where sellers wouldn't resort to playing these games. Instead, what do they do? They tax the entire amount and still don't publish guidelines for what is reasonable and customary. In a sense, they are letting the marketplace determine what is reasonable. When I sold on ebay I always listed with free shipping and set my starting bid to be the shipping cost. I found this created goodwill and people appreciated the fact that I wasn't going to gouge them. You know what? On similar items that did not include free shipping, the net cost was usually the same. Buyers are smarter than some sellers here give them credit for.
But, unlike ebay, amazon determines what is reasonable. On ebay, reasonable means whatever they want it to mean on any particular day. That sort of sloppiness is a product of what you mention regarding ebay is just in business to make money. If they really cared about this they would give it some thought and come up with unassailable guidelines where sellers wouldn't resort to playing these games. Instead, what do they do? They tax the entire amount and still don't publish guidelines for what is reasonable and customary. In a sense, they are letting the marketplace determine what is reasonable. When I sold on ebay I always listed with free shipping and set my starting bid to be the shipping cost. I found this created goodwill and people appreciated the fact that I wasn't going to gouge them. You know what? On similar items that did not include free shipping, the net cost was usually the same. Buyers are smarter than some sellers here give them credit for.
Most people who sell on ebay don't look through the prism of a commercial enterprise. They are small operations that are usually selling out the back door of a retail outlet and their labor is already a sunk cost or they are just selling out of a home-based business.
alex71
Well-known member
nonsense. scope and size don't matter. anyone who sells on ebay sells for profit. if they knowingly sell for less than what the item is worth, that doesn't make them "not-for-profit". It just makes them bad businesspeople.
That's an absolutely invalid leap. When you buy a product from Sears, you know you are paying for whatever it cost them PLUS whatever they want to tack on for profit, salaries of employees, cost to keep their stores open etc. When they add on shipping and handling, it is expected that the amount they charge you is within reason, the amount it will cost you to ship it plus the amount it takes for packaging etc.
alex71
Well-known member
absolutely. within reason. cost of shipping (literally the amount on the UPS invoice or the amount charged by USPS) is not reasonable. that's selling at a loss, which is my whole point, and my only point.
if people are stupid enough to overpay shipping by an order of magnitude, too bad. it doesn't look like anyone here is that stupid, so I just don't get what the problem is?
don't like? DON'T BUY!
Actually, more matters than just scope and size. You have to look at the reference frame of the business life-cycle. Early on, I sold at a loss just to get some experience and feedback. Once I established some feedback I was able to be a little more selective. Low feedback numbers will greatly hinder your ability to sell. This is not bad business, in my opinion. It is the only way in this sort of environment (Amazon marketplace, too) to get established. Nobody is going to bid a premium prices for someone with low feedback counts, unless they are an idiot.
I think you and I are in agreement. Not arguing your point about Amazon at all. My point is that you aren't gonna cheat Amazon out of their cut. They are smart on that point. Everyone knows the rules. Ebay left it open ended and they feel they are losing out on their cut when a guy sells an item for cheap and makes it up on the shipping. You are right, two similar items often sell for similar total:
$1 item plus $29 shipping vs
$30 item plus free shipping
Who cares? Ebay and nice sellers like yourself who get less profit because Ebay takes a bigger cut of that $30. I'm not arguing for or against Ebay. I just think that if Ebay had been smart they would have done their homework and created a system where the shipping cost on most items (things that fit in a normal box and can be stuck in one of their machines at the post office) reflected true shipping cost. They insure they aren't getting cheated, the seller reflects this in his asking price and we might not have this situation where they are asking for a cut of the shipping cost too.
In the end I don't really care because I don't Ebay anymore, it's just good debate.
I agree. As someone with no stake in this game I don't care what buyers or sellers are doing. Ebay cares because they are losing money but that doesn't mean **** to buyers or sellers. The only people who care are the guys who charge actual shipping (plus or minus a few dollars for their trip to post office). If they think that Ebay is is going to get wise to people charging $1 for an item and $29 dollars for shipping, then they are afraid that ebay's gonna make up that loss somewhere else (ie raise their fees). They're afraid someone gaming the system is gonna take money out of their pocket. So they are gonna report them. I can't say that they don't have a right to feel that way. In the end their fears were right.
A friend of a friend has a very successful business on Amazon marketplace. She was a former marketing executive for a Fortune-500 firm and has an MBA from a prestigious university. But, she is also a mother and wanted to stay home and raise her designer young children. So, she retired from her position in her early 30s and started raising her children as a stay-at-home mom.
But, she also had a bug to do something with her time during the day so she started researching selling online. Amazon fit her requirements. Ebay did not. She felt that Amazon's policies, although strict and rigid are sealed up tight and they take care of almost every contingency. Ebay, on the other hand is disorganized, ambiguous, expensive (so is Amazon) and slowly dying off because they are stuck with an obsolete business model that is decaying with no sign of improvement.
In her research prior to launch she felt there were two make-or-break factors in the Amazon marketplace. The first is the shipping cost and the second is the requirement for a continuous pipeline of simple, fresh ideas. She solved the shipping cost dilemma by selling something that could be sent with first-class postage. She solved the second dilemma by making twice-yearly trips to China, Korea and Taiwan in search of new ideas. Her business is flourishing now. She ships directly from Asia via bulk forwarding services which cut her shipping cost by 75% or more over what it would cost to keep inventory here in the US. Her Amazon storefront is targeted towards young mothers and she feels she knows this market intimately. She went from a few thousand in revenue her first year to over a million per year now with very high profit margins. Her average transaction is less than $10 with free shipping. She instituted free shipping when Amazon Prime became pervasive. She uses a combination of fulfillment houses in Asia and forwarding services based in Asia but with extensive operations in the US and Canada. These forwarding services work totally under the average consumer's radar and you would never know they are being used when you receive something from her storefront.
But, she also had a bug to do something with her time during the day so she started researching selling online. Amazon fit her requirements. Ebay did not. She felt that Amazon's policies, although strict and rigid are sealed up tight and they take care of almost every contingency. Ebay, on the other hand is disorganized, ambiguous, expensive (so is Amazon) and slowly dying off because they are stuck with an obsolete business model that is decaying with no sign of improvement.
In her research prior to launch she felt there were two make-or-break factors in the Amazon marketplace. The first is the shipping cost and the second is the requirement for a continuous pipeline of simple, fresh ideas. She solved the shipping cost dilemma by selling something that could be sent with first-class postage. She solved the second dilemma by making twice-yearly trips to China, Korea and Taiwan in search of new ideas. Her business is flourishing now. She ships directly from Asia via bulk forwarding services which cut her shipping cost by 75% or more over what it would cost to keep inventory here in the US. Her Amazon storefront is targeted towards young mothers and she feels she knows this market intimately. She went from a few thousand in revenue her first year to over a million per year now with very high profit margins. Her average transaction is less than $10 with free shipping. She instituted free shipping when Amazon Prime became pervasive. She uses a combination of fulfillment houses in Asia and forwarding services based in Asia but with extensive operations in the US and Canada. These forwarding services work totally under the average consumer's radar and you would never know they are being used when you receive something from her storefront.
I think you and I are in agreement. Not arguing your point about Amazon at all. My point is that you aren't gonna cheat Amazon out of their cut. They are smart on that point. Everyone knows the rules. Ebay left it open ended and they feel they are losing out on their cut when a guy sells an item for cheap and makes it up on the shipping. You are right, two similar items often sell for similar total:
$1 item plus $29 shipping vs
$30 item plus free shipping
Who cares? Ebay and nice sellers like yourself who get less profit because Ebay takes a bigger cut of that $30. I'm not arguing for or against Ebay. I just think that if Ebay had been smart they would have done their homework and created a system where the shipping cost on most items (things that fit in a normal box and can be stuck in one of their machines at the post office) reflected true shipping cost. They insure they aren't getting cheated, the seller reflects this in his asking price and we might not have this situation where they are asking for a cut of the shipping cost too.
In the end I don't really care because I don't Ebay anymore, it's just good debate.
Very smart lady.
I have a friend who used to sell a lot of books. Every once in a while he'd find a really cheap online source for a particular book (available to anyone). Sometimes people just go to Amazon thinking it's the cheapest when it really isn't. He'd list this book for a few dollars profit on Amazon. When someone bought it, he goes to the other site, buys it and has it sent it directly to his Amazon buyer. He never had to go to the post office or touch these books. Amazon's pretty cheap on books these days so he can't do this much anymore.
I have a friend who used to sell a lot of books. Every once in a while he'd find a really cheap online source for a particular book (available to anyone). Sometimes people just go to Amazon thinking it's the cheapest when it really isn't. He'd list this book for a few dollars profit on Amazon. When someone bought it, he goes to the other site, buys it and has it sent it directly to his Amazon buyer. He never had to go to the post office or touch these books. Amazon's pretty cheap on books these days so he can't do this much anymore.
Last edited:
That's not exactly correct. Charging exact shipping cost may mean you're not covering some of your costs on the shipping,(ie labor to pack, packing tape, bubble wrap, etc.) but that does NOT mean you're selling at a loss. You are forgetting the profit made on the sale of the item. The only way to succeed on eBay is to be able to buy whatever you are selling cheap enough so you make money after all expenses, fees, taxes etc. are accounted for.
alex71
Well-known member
That depends very much on the type of items you are selling. In my situation, I have about 1,000 listings live at any one time. About half of them are less than $5. My minimum shipping charge is $6.50 (clearly stated in my listings). This allows me to sell low dollar items one at a time and still make a few dollars. What this also allows me to do is sell many items to one seller and effectively combine shipping--sort of a built-in quantity discount.
I sell one $3 item, charge $6.50 for shipping, and ship it FCM for $2.50. I can sell 20 of the same item to one buyer, ship it in a small flat rate box and still charge the same $6.50 shipping.
Make sense?
Meg Whitman's personal wealth is NOT shareholder wealth. Granted she made huge amounts of money at eBay, but I'm sure few if any eBay stockholders would question whether she was worth the money.
As far my having to pay taxes on eBay profits, as soon as anyone transitions from selling their excess junk, to buying inventory to resell, it is time to do a schedule C or set up a corp. I do find it quite easy to do, and easy to make good money. I enjoy selling tools, so it's kind if a hobby for me; it's just very time consuming.
Her personal wealth is almost exclusively tied to her sales of ebay stock. She didn't become a billionaire from her salary and bonus. She got it by selling ebay stock.
Yes, a $4 markup on shipping makes total sense. I don't think anyone here has any major issue to that. But $6.50 shipping on a $3 item is a far cry from $45 shipping on a $3 item, which is what the original post was all about.
If selling on E-bay is such a burden on your life, then just stop. Again, nobody is MAKING you do anything. If you don't agree with the rules, don't play the game. Finding creative ways to break the rules by leveraging on the 'fair and reasonable' verbiage does not make you less of an *** for charging $65 shipping on a $5 item.
I don't think I get paid enough to do my job, but that doesn't mean I can strip the place clean when I leave to 'make it right'. I don't think it's fair that the CEO's of Exxon, BP, Shell and the other major oil companies get to drive home to their $4 Million mansion in their Maserati while I pay $100 a week for gas, but that doesn't give me the right to go steal it.
Name one product/service that HASN'T increased in price in the past 2-3 years. I think it ***** when I go to the grocery store and buy a '1.5 liter' carton of ice cream that used to be a half gallon just a few years ago. The size went down and the price went up. I guess I should open the other carton and spoon out another .5 liters of ice cream into mine to make it fair. A bag of Doritos has gone up by at least a dollar but the bag is 50% air. I guess I should open the other bag and dig out the rest of MY chips.
When you purposely cheat E-bay from their fees by essentially lying and saying you sold a $100 item for $5 (+$95 'shipping and handling') you are stealing. Call it what you want, but that's what it is. Try that on your taxes and tell them how unfair it is when they send you away for tax evasion. "But your honor, I know my W2 says I made $38,000 last year, but $37,500 of that was a gift from my employer....my salary was only $500"
The argument that your time for "handling" is worth $25+ an item to package and drive it to UPS is ludicrous at best. Are you a brain surgeon that has to stop in the middle of a life saving surgery to drive a 3/8" Ratchet to the post office? If you really value your free time at $25 or more an hour, you need to take a bite of the reality sandwich.
alex71
Well-known member
We forgot all about the OP by the 3rd page. As is SOP for GJ.
1. I think Meg Whitman stripped a lot of shareholder value out of the company, both in her stock sales and her acquisition of Skype. But, that's just my opinion.
2. I can think of plenty of things that have not increased in price. The hard drives in my computers, the monitor that I'm looking at right now, the TV sets at my home and real estate prices in Stockton, CA (the center of the real estate bubble bursting).
3. The "cheating" that you reference can also be characterized as a loophole so large that an elephant could jump through it. Amazon closes such loopholes very quickly because they have capable people to do this. Ebay does not have people capable of managing the loopholes. Their solution is to tax the entire transaction. How f*cking brilliant is that?
2. I can think of plenty of things that have not increased in price. The hard drives in my computers, the monitor that I'm looking at right now, the TV sets at my home and real estate prices in Stockton, CA (the center of the real estate bubble bursting).
3. The "cheating" that you reference can also be characterized as a loophole so large that an elephant could jump through it. Amazon closes such loopholes very quickly because they have capable people to do this. Ebay does not have people capable of managing the loopholes. Their solution is to tax the entire transaction. How f*cking brilliant is that?
If you ever listen to one of Jeff Bezos' talks you will learn that he is a brilliant visionary, almost on par with Steve Jobs. They are both visionary first and businessman second. Part of that vision is to have happy customers.
Very few Amazon or Apple customers are unhappy or dissatisfied. The same cannot be said for Ebay. If you read the Amazon seller forums you will find a level of frustration and anger that is also present on ebay. The difference is, the frustration and anger on Amazon is due to this nuance or that nuance in the rules, this corner case or that special exception, etc. I see very few complaints about the Amazon tax. Sellers know what the tax is going to be because it is self-evident and very clear from the formulas and tables that are clearly published in the seller's area. No such clarity exists on ebay because the charges are so fragmented between ebay and paypal, shipping costs and whatever else they want to add taxes to. I'm not sure if this is done intentionally, out of laziness or from incompetence. But, it is definitely something that clearly distinguishes Amazon from ebay.
Very few Amazon or Apple customers are unhappy or dissatisfied. The same cannot be said for Ebay. If you read the Amazon seller forums you will find a level of frustration and anger that is also present on ebay. The difference is, the frustration and anger on Amazon is due to this nuance or that nuance in the rules, this corner case or that special exception, etc. I see very few complaints about the Amazon tax. Sellers know what the tax is going to be because it is self-evident and very clear from the formulas and tables that are clearly published in the seller's area. No such clarity exists on ebay because the charges are so fragmented between ebay and paypal, shipping costs and whatever else they want to add taxes to. I'm not sure if this is done intentionally, out of laziness or from incompetence. But, it is definitely something that clearly distinguishes Amazon from ebay.
Yes. But your pricing model is not the norm on eBay. I think you provide a great service offering such items. Perhaps your pricing was the only reasonable way to do so. But in reality, your plan did avoid fees to a certain extent.
So what? How is that stripping shareholder wealth? Stock and options were part of her compensation package, as with most top executices. A big part of the reason she did so well selling her stock was the success of the company while she was in charge. In fact, Ms. Whitman did the exact opposite of stripping shareholder wealth. I wish I owned eBay stock from the time they hired her to when she left.
From Wikipedia:
Whitman served as President and Chief Executive Officer of eBay from 1998 to 2008. During her ten years with the company she oversaw expansion from 30 employees and $4 million in annual revenue to more than 15,000 employees and $8 billion in annual revenue when she stepped down.
Last edited:
alex71
Well-known member
It did (won't anymore), but that wasn't my motivation for setting it up this way. I did it to drive multiple item purchases. I know ebay has a facility to automatically calculate shipping (i.e. add $1 for each additional item purchased) but that never really works out well. if a buyer only buys a couple items that happen to be bulky, I wind up in the hole. If the buyer buys a couple dozen items, they get raped on shipping.
The way I did it seems fair to the buyer, not to mention the only way that it makes sense for me to sell low dollar items one at a time if buyers demand them.
Totally agreed. As I said before, you provide a great service to your buyers, and your pricing model is probably the only way eBay could deal with such a strategy, (where unit cost drops with quantity.)
I guess you don't understand what shareholder wealth is. The bulk of her wealth was created before she got there. She cashed out and extracted that cash from people who bought the shares she sold which she acquired for very little. There is a nice article on her tenure here.
Just do a little reading on the Skype acquisition and the alienation of buyers and sellers. It might be enlightening.
Just do a little reading on the Skype acquisition and the alienation of buyers and sellers. It might be enlightening.
You're right, she did extract shareholder wealth, her own. She did NOT extract wealth from other eBay shareholders...she made them all rich. Perhaps you think there is something wrong with an executive cashing in their stock after leaving a company, but I really do not.
So what if she acquired her shares for very little? You statements imply she somehow strong-armed the folks that bought her shares. Or somehow improperly got her shares to begin with. Neither is true. I'm sure she got market price when she sold; no more, no less. This is just basic capitalism, and a very successful example at that. It appears you have a problem with Ms. Ryan's success; or is it just the capitalist system you have a problem with?
Personally, I think it's great when a CEO ties their compensation to the growth of their company stock; there's no better motivation for success. Taking a company from 30 to 15,000 employees in ten years is a pretty amazing feat. It's too bad she failed at her political aspirations, based on her track record, I have every faith she would have prevented the impending financial doomsday that is around the corner for California.