Thoughts on Double Breakers?

[ddawg16]

I haven't even started wiring my load center yet and I see me running out of spaces....

I have a SD 200A 20 space/40 ckt load center...

I'm not pulling that much power....but I tend to use a lot of breakers....I like being able to isolate a ckt if I have issues....not to mention that the new NEC requires me to give each bathroom it's own ckt...and then there is the smoke detectors...and everything else that has to be on a dedicated ckt....

So....are those double breakers that fit in one space a safe way to go? I'm thinking at least all of my lights (15A).

 

[ForceFed70]

Go for it. The fact that they passed all of the certifications (UL, etc) is good enough for me. Especially for the lower amperage (15A) circuits.

After adding 2 100A subpanels to the main panel in my house (Shop and Outdoor panel for future heat pump and hot-tub), I will need to use one of these breakers myself if I ever want to add another circuit in the house.

 

[toolman1967]

I used them on lights and other circuits that do not pull high loads. I had to laugh when I read the title though, I had a LONG conversation with a guy not too long ago about why he could NOT use a double breaker on a 220/240 circuit. He just could not grasp the concept of the two bus bars supplying each leg of the 220/240 circuit..... Made me want to beat my head against the wall trying to explain this.LOL

 

[chickenhauler]

I used them on lights and other circuits that do not pull high loads. I had to laugh when I read the title though, I had a LONG conversation with a guy not too long ago about why he could NOT use a double breaker on a 220/240 circuit. He just could not grasp the concept of the two bus bars supplying each leg of the 220/240 circuit..... Made me want to beat my head against the wall trying to explain this.LOL

Well, you can, but it's a quad and only the two inside ones are 240.

 

[MrMark]

They are called tandems. There is nothing wrong with them except they cost more. I've always used them.

 

[chickenhauler]

They are called tandems.

That's the word lol. I only use them when they come as a package deal with the box or if I'm running out of room.

 

[MrMark]

A double pole breaker connects to each side of the phase bus bars. A tandem only connects to one leg and provides two single pole breakers off that single slot.

A quad is a cool device that takes up two positions but provides four breakers, the inner two with the handle tie stradling A and B phases to get you the proper 240V (or two more 120V circuits set up with a shared neutral) and the outer breakers getting you individual 120V circuits.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

You used a 20/40 panel, it is designed to have those installed in all positions, and the breakers are UL listed, so have at it. Makes the panel crowded with all those wires in that rather small panel. I always go as large as possible, prefer a 40/40 panel.

Charles

 

[chickenhauler]

Ok, so I was right by calling it a quad then?

This is what I was talking about -

And this is neat, but I haven't seen one stocked anywhere -

 

[Charles (in GA)]

A double pole breaker connects to each side of the phase bus bars. A tandem only connects to one leg and provides two single pole breakers off that single slot.

A quad is a cool device that takes up two positions but provides four breakers, the inner two with the handle tie stradling A and B phases to get you the proper 240V (or two more 120V circuits set up with a shared neutral) and the outer breakers getting you individual 120V circuits.

I have a Siemens quad that has two double poles. The center two handles are tied together and the outer two handles are tied together with a U shaped tie, one is 20amp the other is 30 amp.

Charles

 

[ddawg16]

"Tandem"....yea...that's the word...

Ok...thanks guys....

As I said...not pulling that much.....house is mostly CFL....consider that my typical electric bill is $45 in the summer and may go as high as $65 in the winter (gas heating)....yea...I'm not using a lot of electricity....

The only issue I see with the Tandems is that it would be easy to swith both off when you only want to do one....

 

[MrMark]

Oh yeah, you were right. The second picture is very cool. That can provide the double 240V circuits. I wondered if those existed with the inner and outer handle ties.

 

[MrMark]

"Tandem"....yea...that's the word...

Ok...thanks guys....

As I said...not pulling that much.....house is mostly CFL....consider that my typical electric bill is $45 in the summer and may go as high as $65 in the winter (gas heating)....yea...I'm not using a lot of electricity....

The only issue I see with the Tandems is that it would be easy to swith both off when you only want to do one....

Only if you are not careful. It is actually very easy to turn them off individually.

 

[ddawg16]

You used a 20/40 panel, it is designed to have those installed in all positions, and the breakers are UL listed, so have at it. Makes the panel crowded with all those wires in that rather small panel. I always go as large as possible, prefer a 40/40 panel.

Charles

It may not get that crowded....not much romex is going into it....I have two junction boxes under the new crawl space....I already have a 1.5" conduit going from the load center, under my slab over to the crawl space....I'm going to run THHN over to terminal blocks in the junction boxes....and then romex from there to the desired location.

Where I had to put my load center just made it too hard to find a good path through all the studs to where the wire needs to go. I hate drilling holes in studs.....

 

[ddawg16]

I am re-reading my building plans.....

"Bathrooms is to have it's own 20A ckt. No other outlets on that ckt."

As I understand it, dedicated ckt to the bathroom(s)...which means no other outlets....but I can have more than one bathroom on the ckt....i.e., I can have 2 bathrooms on one 20A ckt.

One of those bathrooms is really nothing more than a craper and shower....unlikely anyone is going to be using a hair dryer in it....so I'm not worried about over loading it.

 

[MrMark]

That is right from what I remember. You can do bathrooms a couple different ways. Each bathroom can have its own circuit (lights and plugs) or one circuit can be used for multiple bathrooms as long as limited to outlets only. Don't quote me on this .....

 

[MrMark]

As an aside, do you know where the rough in for the disposer is typically placed?

Same question for dishwasher.

 

[TWX]

My house has probably 2/3 of the distribution provided through tandem breakers. Since the house has two air conditioners, two hot water heaters, a subpanel for the workshop, and a subpanel for when there was a pool, I lose twelve breaker positions of the 24 to those. Essentially the entire remaining twelve are all tandem breakers.

 

[Gooch]

when i do houses, this is what i do.


smokes go on a lighting circuit(generally you don't want this on it's own, because it will keep you from shutting it off to fix a false alarm, rather than fixing it correctly.)

two bathroom's worth of rec. on one 20 A.

Two bedroom's worth of rec. on one circuit(Master gets its own)

one circuit for fridge

one if using a OTR microwave

two for counter top

one for dishwaser

one for disposal

one for living room

one for dining room.

 

[StumpjumperDave]

get the QO1515 or QO2020 they can be installed anywhere in the panel.
if you get QOT type, they can only be installed in certain slots in the panel because of the hook on the rail end...

 

[ddawg16]

As an aside, do you know where the rough in for the disposer is typically placed?

Same question for dishwasher.

Kitchen is existing.....

I upgraded my electrical 11 years ago right after we moved in....went from 60A to 200A.

The house only had 4 breakers....2 15A and 2 20A with the main breaker at 60A.

The only original power in the kitchen is the same ckt that fed two of the bedrooms....right now, the only thing on it is the washer and dryer and fridge.....since I'm going to go ahead and replace the power in the existing bedrooms with new 12/2 romex with a REAL ground and AFIC, I'm just going to abandon that one ckt.

I already had new ckts for disposal, dish washer and counter tops....Washer and dryer go to the laundry room....those outlets get disconnected and covered up....I'll run a new one for the fridge. It needs to be on it's own breaker anyway.

I'm trying to decide if one 20A breaker for the disposal, dish washer, microwave and stove top (gas) is enough.

And trying to decide if I want to run the ckts in conduit under the house or in the attic. Attic is a longer run...but easier to do. I'm leaning towards crawl space...shorter...and I do it once and don't worry about it.

 

[Aceman]

The only thing I do when using twins is to make sure the twin breakers are only carrying lightly loaded circuits. You don't want a twin trying to dissipate the heat from two heavily loaded circuits. That just gives you the potential for nuisance trips.

I don't use Sq D, so I don't know, but make sure your panel has enough lugs for all the neutrals/grounds you need when you start going above and beyond the 20 circuits.

 

[luvit]

when i buy a panel, i use the several free breakers that come with it.
but i buy tandems for the rest of the panel.
it's all in my head.. the comfort of the panel appearing to be only half full and having more potential.

 

[MrMark]

Kitchen is existing.....

I upgraded my electrical 11 years ago right after we moved in....went from 60A to 200A.

The house only had 4 breakers....2 15A and 2 20A with the main breaker at 60A.

The only original power in the kitchen is the same ckt that fed two of the bedrooms....right now, the only thing on it is the washer and dryer and fridge.....since I'm going to go ahead and replace the power in the existing bedrooms with new 12/2 romex with a REAL ground and AFIC, I'm just going to abandon that one ckt.

I already had new ckts for disposal, dish washer and counter tops....Washer and dryer go to the laundry room....those outlets get disconnected and covered up....I'll run a new one for the fridge. It needs to be on it's own breaker anyway.

I'm trying to decide if one 20A breaker for the disposal, dish washer, microwave and stove top (gas) is enough.

And trying to decide if I want to run the ckts in conduit under the house or in the attic. Attic is a longer run...but easier to do. I'm leaning towards crawl space...shorter...and I do it once and don't worry about it.

I was asking for myself. I don't know the standard RO locations.

 

[MrMark]

The refrig doesn't have to be on its own circuit. But, it should.

As for the other stuff you listed, I think anything with a motor should be on its own circuit.

Thus, the disposal, and diswasher, should have their own.

Microwave, if built in should have its own. Gas top? Mine has its own because it is a downdraft with a motor, but just igniter type I would share with something probably.

 

[BigJohn20]

get the QO1515 or QO2020 they can be installed anywhere in the panel.
if you get QOT type, they can only be installed in certain slots in the panel because of the hook on the rail end...

They do that for a reason. It's because you have circuit-limiting and non circuit-limiting breakers. NCL breakers can only legally be used in certain panels (I forget what the manufacturing date is, but it's either late 60s or early 70s). CL breakers can only be used in spots designated by the manufacturer in certain panels (as to not have more circuits than are listed).

 

[Charles (in GA)]

ddawg16 has a 20/40 panel, so every space in his panel should accept the tandem breakers without any restriction, as it has 20 full width (3/4" for a Square D) slots, and is allowed a total of 40 circuits, which can only be accomplished if every breaker is a tandem.

Charles

 

[ddawg16]

As an aside, do you know where the rough in for the disposer is typically placed?

Same question for dishwasher.

I was asking for myself. I don't know the standard RO locations.

Oh....sorry for the disconnect.....

I have a ckt going to a recept under my sink...I cut the strap between the screws....so one part is for the disposal via switch....other for the dishwasher.

The receptical box is basically centered under the sink....close enough so that the cord from the DW reaches it.

The refrig doesn't have to be on its own circuit. But, it should.

As for the other stuff you listed, I think anything with a motor should be on its own circuit.

Thus, the disposal, and diswasher, should have their own.

Microwave, if built in should have its own. Gas top? Mine has its own because it is a downdraft with a motor, but just igniter type I would share with something probably.

I was looking at my current draw on the devices....stove top....basically nothing....Vent hood? Forgot about that one.....but if someone were to want an over cooktop MW....they would be throwing away a real expensive vent hood....and we don't everplan to sell this house......if we ever move it....it becomes a rental.

Ok...so maybe the MW, stove top and vent hood go on one ckt. And I'll put the disposal and DW on another one.

 

[ddawg16]

when i do houses, this is what i do.


smokes go on a lighting circuit(generally you don't want this on it's own, because it will keep you from shutting it off to fix a false alarm, rather than fixing it correctly.)
two bathroom's worth of rec. on one 20 A.

Two bedroom's worth of rec. on one circuit(Master gets its own)

one circuit for fridge

one if using a OTR microwave

two for counter top

one for dishwaser

one for disposal

one for living room

one for dining room.

Re: the smokes....that is actually a real good idea...

 

[BigJohn20]

Be careful with the dishwasher and garbage disposal on the same circuit:

210.23(A)(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.

As long as you don't violate 210.23(A)(2), feel free to have them on the same circuit.

 

[ddawg16]

Be careful with the dishwasher and garbage disposal on the same circuit:

210.23(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.

As long as you don't violate 210.23(2), feel free to have them on the same circuit.

If I understand that correctly, the DW and disposal together can not exceed 50% of the ckt amp rating IF I also have other things on the same ckt....like lights or another outlet that someone could plug a vacuum into...

But....if the DW and disposal are the ONLY things being fed by that ckt....I'm good to go...right?

 

[BigJohn20]

If I understand that correctly, the DW and disposal together can not exceed 50% of the ckt amp rating IF I also have other things on the same ckt....like lights or another outlet that someone could plug a vacuum into...

But....if the DW and disposal are the ONLY things being fed by that ckt....I'm good to go...right?

Yep, you're good to go.

We normally run a dedicated MWBC with either a 12-3 or 14-3 to a split duplex receptacle as a best practice, but it's not required.