Thoughts on LED Lighting & Recessed Cans?

[Bobbyd38]

I'm building a 24x48' Garage, and considering using standard recessed Cans with 60 Watt equivalent (9 watt actual) LED Bulbs. I used a lighting calculator, and came up with a quantity of 44 Cans needed to properly light that area with 60 watt bulbs. The benefits I see are as follows:

• Installation Cost - Recessed Light Cans are cheap, and can be bought for as little as $13 each (with Trims) at Lowes. 60 Watt equivalent LED bulbs are $5 at Lowes and Home Depot. I can save money by doing the mechanical installation of the Cans and just have the electrician wire them.
• Smooth Ceiling - I have 10.5' Ceiling and want to place a 4 poster lift someday, with the recessed Cans I have no worry's of anything hitting a light. Plus it's a nice clean look.
• Lower energy Bill - I calculated 9 watts x 44 fixtures equals a whopping 396 watts to light over 1100 square feet, CFLs or FlorescentStrip lights would be double or triple that, every time you flick on the switch.

So I'm looking for any feedback, comments, concerns, questions, or input you guys might have on this concept for lighting my Garage?

Thanks,
Bob

 

[Mustang51js]

You would need ic airtight cans. I would go with a led trim so it's all one piece. Home Depot has some for $15 a trim. You don't have to dim them so don't need them dimable which usually cost more

 

[nick2010tundra]

I have led pot lights throughout my house, highly recommend dimmers. I recommend dimmers as the led can be kinda bright, also add a few extra

 

[jroach321]

I have LED cans in my entire house and most everywhere that I had put a dimmer flickers. I have removed most of the dimmers now. I used Duracell Led flood lights in standard can light fixtures. I used the 10watt everywhere and they are really bright. Bought them for a bulk price at batteries plus for like $8 a piece.

 

[indyokie]

I installed 10 can lights in November in my 21x23 garage when Depot had 65 watt equal for 15.85 a piece. I love the clean look, and no fear of something knocking it out - ( tennis ball from the kids or a ladder being moved out. ) I only would caution you that many LED can light trim ( combos where trim and light are the same ) all seem to be warm light color. Having to do it over, I would want a brighter white light for garage work.

 

[wssix99]

44 fixtures

That's a lot of fixtures! Besides the cost of the fixtures, you'll have a much higher install cost and a more focused light vs. tubes.

If you want lights you can work under, I'd go for tubes. Have you seen the new LED tube conversions? You can get cheap fluorescent fixtures for them as you remove the ballasts.

The can lights are nice and give a dramatic light. They just focus the light narrowly and you will get some shadow areas.

 

[jroach321]

Why not go with T5?
This is with 4 60w equivalent led bulbs.


This is with (24) 4' T5

 

[Electric_Light]

Was the calculation using the zonal cavity method? You'd use it for a classroom or a conference room when the design target is based on FC level landing on 2.5 feet tall desks, but it's not the most useful for your garage. I'd use wide spread pattern T5 or T8 surface mount lensed fixtures and light up to a lower FC level and multi-lamp track lights at multiple locations along the sides. When you aim multiple lights toward the same direction from different sides as well as indirect lighting by pointing them at the wall, you can get an operating room like light that gives you a good level of light with minimal shadow casting.

10.5 feet is quite short relative to the height of the vehicle, so overhead lighting wouldn't work work as well as evenly lighting every side of the car like you would by having a 25 ft ceiling. If you're working under the hood, a set of track lights placed along the wall with a few feet of offset will give you the option to aim some of them at the wall and give you a good light level at the task. T5HOs are good for fixtures really high up as in 25' ceiling where the lamps don't normally fall within your direct line of sight or indirect lighting. When you use them in strip lights on low ceilings, they're glare bombs.

 

[DonPowers]

Have a 32 x 48 with an 11 ft. ceiling. Recently installed twelve 6" cans, six over each bay with BR30 750 lumen LEDs @ 13 watts ea, for general area lighting. Will install additional task lighting over work benches and stationary tools next summer. Waiting for the price of 1,100+ lumen LEDs to drop. When they are reasonable, will replace some of the 750s.

 

[e36jon]

Greetings

My issue of Fine Homebuilding landed this week (March 2015) and they have a great article on LED's in can lights, looking at heat issues. It's worth checking out as choosing different styles of bulbs had a much bigger impact on temps (all the bulbs at the same wattage / light output) than I would have ever guessed. The big winner was an LED 'retrofit' system for can lights that used a flat emitter and a pig-tail with an Edison base on the end. The article was 'really' about weatherproofing and sealing cans, with a side-bar on bulb temps, but you get the idea. The longevity of LED bulbs is directly tied to temperature, so it seemed worth mentioning here.

Good luck with the project!

Cheers,

Jon

 

[Lukewarmwater]

I just built a new home and we installed 50+ Silvania LED recessed lights. There's no need to install the metal cans as these lights can be installed in a blue job box! The lighting is great but be cautious on the dimmer you use, some dimmers do not play well with LED! Read the instructions or call Sylvanis for the correct dimmer.

 

[froman6]

I just built a new home and we installed 50+ Silvania LED recessed lights. There's no need to install the metal cans as these lights can be installed in a blue job box!

lukewarmwater.....can you upload a pic of how you did this? I'm very interested in possibly doing this in my garage. Thanks!

 

[Criss]

I'd like some more information as well. I have roughly 50 lights to install and mounting to a blue job box would be quick and way less expensive.

I just built a new home and we installed 50+ Silvania LED recessed lights. There's no need to install the metal cans as these lights can be installed in a blue job box! The lighting is great but be cautious on the dimmer you use, some dimmers do not play well with LED! Read the instructions or call Sylvanis for the correct dimmer.

 

[wssix99]

I just built a new home and we installed 50+ Silvania LED recessed lights. There's no need to install the metal cans as these lights can be installed in a blue job box! The lighting is great but be cautious on the dimmer you use, some dimmers do not play well with LED! Read the instructions or call Sylvanis for the correct dimmer.

Are you talking about a 120V system or a low voltage LED system.

Luke brings up a great point/idea. For new construction, you could put in a low voltage LED system. No need for 120V infrastructure, boxes, etc. and you could do the thing with a single transformer. The heat would be much less and the cost would be way way less.

 

[Criss]

After reading this thread I started doing some research. I had no idea these type of lights even exsisted. This should make adding lights much easier by using a old work construction junction box.

 

[Electric_Light]

I just built a new home and we installed 50+ Silvania LED recessed lights. There's no need to install the metal cans as these lights can be installed in a blue job box!

lukewarmwater.....can you upload a pic of how you did this? I'm very interested in possibly doing this in my garage. Thanks!

Are you talking about a 120V system or a low voltage LED system.

Luke brings up a great point/idea. For new construction, you could put in a low voltage LED system. No need for 120V infrastructure, boxes, etc. and you could do the thing with a single transformer. The heat would be much less and the cost would be way way less.

After reading this thread I started doing some research. I had no idea these type of lights even exsisted. This should make adding lights much easier by using a old construction junction box.

They're called disc or disk light and looks like a giant elevator call button that installs in the 4 inch junction box. They won't fit in crowded junctions or some round ones. The entire fixture a single non-serviceable unit and there's a proprietary driver built into it (like the ballast inside CFLs). Buy about 10% failure spares when you're installing them in sets where cosmetic match is important.

 

[JACDes]

40 cans @ 360 watts for 1100 s.f. = .33 watts per s.f.

16 4' T8 twin bulb fixtures = 768 watts = .70 watts per s.f.

60% fewer lights, twice the light output.

for a garage the more light you have the better.

 

[black00lightning]

Lukewarmwater:
Any links to what you purchased? Do they make a disc light that is 100 watt equivalent? Pics please.
I'm having a 960 sqft woodshop being built that I will convert to a guest house at some point. Having all the amenitities installed now and would like to Install lights that fit the future decor (rather than fluorescents).

 

[Showkey]

40 cans @ 360 watts for 1100 s.f. = .33 watts per s.f.

16 4' T8 twin bulb fixtures = 768 watts = .70 watts per s.f.

60% fewer lights, twice the light output.

for a garage the more light you have the better.

Think your math, figures and conclusions are messed up.

Actual Watts per SF is not a could comparison when LED is being used.

40 cans with 65 watt equivalent LED bulbs is ............2600 watts but use 360 watts ?

16 T8 fixtures x 2 bulbs x 32 watts is.............1024 watts ?

Lumens or foot candles per watt might be more valid..........

 

[Electric_Light]

40 cans @ 360 watts for 1100 s.f. = .33 watts per s.f.

16 4' T8 twin bulb fixtures = 768 watts = .70 watts per s.f.

60% fewer lights, twice the light output.

for a garage the more light you have the better.

Can you show the work? I'm not getting anything even remotely close. I've repeated your calculation using real examples and got something entirely different.

I used CREE EcoSmart CR6. It is rated for 625 initial lm delivered at 9.5W.
It is rated at 35,000 hours to 70% of lumen. So I split it in the middle and used 85% mean lumen.

I am showing a 26% reduction in power using fluorescent option while meeting or exceeding the LED option factoring in lamp lumen loss and fixture loss.

Option A:
CREE EcoSmart CR6
Initial lumen 625
Power: 9.5W x 40 = 380W.
25,000 lumens on the day you install it.
0.345W/sq.ft

Delivery efficiency is 100% as LEDs are rated that way.
21,250 lumens @ 0.85 LLD (35,000 hour rated life to 70%)
55.9 mean LPW.

Option B:

Philips-Advance ICN-2P32N. 56W, 0.89 BF, 2 lamp.
90% optical efficiency fixture.
16 fixtures, 32 lamps
896W total...

Philips
F32T8/TL841 (2,950 rated) garden variety fluorescent.
75,600 initial lm. 71,000 lm @ 0.94 LLD

Philips
F32T8/TL841/HL (3,100 rated) high performance fluorescent.
79,500 lm 74,730 lm @ 0.94 LLD

That's off. So I changed the quantity to equalize the output to roughly the same output as the first option.

56W x 5 fixtures = 280W.
100W lower power.
Lumen output meets or exceeds option A.
23,630 lm new. 22,210 lm mean using "garden variety T8"
24,820 lm new. 23,340 lm mean using premium T8
79.3 to 83.3 mean lumens per watt.
0.255W/sq.ft

16 T8 fixtures x 2 bulbs x 32 watts is.............1024 watts

It's a common consumer mistake. Fluorescent lamps are "nominal watts" consumed by the actual lamps under laboratory conditions. These conditions for T8 dates back to 1980s using 60 Hz lamp operation. You wouldn't buy a 2x4 and literally expect the finished lumber to measure 2.0 inch by 4.0 inch. Most of us did at one point, but we quickly learned.

Filament light bulb's lumens are based on 120.00v line voltage. Actual watts vary about 10% and lumens 15% or so and life half to double depending on voltage. Some LED lights and magnetic ballasts behave just like this. Almost all T5 and T8 ballasts and very expensive LED fixtures today regulate to constant wattage regardless of line voltage.

T8 lamps are operated at about 40,000 Hz today and the lamps themselves become more efficient, so in applied systems, the lamps operate at higher LPW than catalog lumens divided by catalog watts. This does not happen with T5s as they're already rated for high frequency operation. T8 systems are commercialized at running the lamps to 87 to 90% output, to match the performance of T12 lamps. It's not uncommon for the LED sales materials to claim full 32W to 35 input watts per lamp, but conveniently assign the operated lumens and rate them as low as 2400 lumens per lamp.

 

[cybrdyke]

I just built a new home and we installed 50+ Silvania LED recessed lights. There's no need to install the metal cans as these lights can be installed in a blue job box! The lighting is great but be cautious on the dimmer you use, some dimmers do not play well with LED! Read the instructions or call Sylvanis for the correct dimmer.

Here's a few different ones:

http://www.cooperindustries.com/con.../brochures/halo-sld-takeone-adv141157-bro.pdf

http://www.lightingproducts.philips...ps Lightolier LED Slim Downlight bulletin.pdf

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hubbell-lighting-launches-versatile-commercial-155500443.html

There's many others. As stated, these "faux cans" are mounted directly to an electrical box, steel or plastic, with no "can" required.

CD

 

[Criss]

I'm looking for some bulk buying / contractor packs, discount on these. If anyone comes up with anything please pass along.

 

[Electric_Light]

Here's a few different ones:

http://www.cooperindustries.com/con.../brochures/halo-sld-takeone-adv141157-bro.pdf

Welp. I wish that existed a year ago. The driver hump was too big in round ones I dealt with, so I threw on a regular light socket and slapped this on.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...ing-Flush-Mount-Easy-Light-54606241/204372304

It's 4100K 830 lm(about 700 mean) 11.5W and puts out the same output as a 100W fixture of the same style. The rating is with the cover in place. If you don't mind the terrible glare, you get around 1,000 lumens without the diffuser. A 100W regular bulb makes 1600 lm, but the semi-circle diffuser loses about half the lumens. I have four of those in use. Bought five and have one shelved as a failure stock.

61 mean delivered LPW is very good for residential lighting.

 

[JACDes]

my mistake.

a 4 foot T8 bulb uses 32 watts x 2 bulbs = 64 watts per fixture

64 watts X 16 fixtures = 1024 watts ~ 1 watt s.f.

still 60% fewer lights and

almost 3 times the light output.

 

[cybrdyke]

I'm looking for some bulk buying / contractor packs, discount on these. If anyone comes up with anything please pass along.

call or visit your local electrical supply house.

CD

 

[Criss]

That's what I'm going to need to do.

call or visit your local electrical supply house.

CD

 

[Electric_Light]

my mistake.

a 4 foot T8 bulb uses 32 watts x 2 bulbs = 64 watts per fixture

Not unless you use rarely used 1.00BF rated ballasts. GE 71421 runs two lamps at 100% output using 62W. 80,000 to 84,000 mean delivered lumens using 1kW. Pull a 3 conductor + ground conductor cable to each fixture so you can put them on alternating switch leg (red or black). If you run 2 hots to each and every fixture, you can change which fixtures go on which switch by changing which wire the fixtures hook into. The most significant power saving comes from shutting off half the fixtures by having them on different zones.

You'll need 151 or 156 CR6s(~531.25 mean lumens) to get this level of performance using nearly 1.5kW... or make 104,000 lumen for 1.26 kW with 1.20 rated ballasts and high efficiency rated lamps.

64 watts X 16 fixtures = 1024 watts ~ 1 watt s.f.

still 60% fewer lights and

almost 3 times the light output.

The calculation in my last post assumes standard ballast, so you'd only use 900W.

 

[Showkey]

Let's correct the "can light" wattage mistake while at it.............

 

[JACDes]

Wow, I just took the lights out of box hooked them up and install the bulbs.

The fixtures I used came with a built in pull chain. I wired them all on a 3-way circuit and shut off the fixtures (with their pull chain) I don't need on for general lighting.

When I need more lighting or task lighting I use the pull chains.

I only use 4 fixtures for general lighting.. 4 X ~64 = ~ 256 watts.

My garage is 36 x 24 so I installed 3 rows of 4 = 12 fixtures, when they are all on there is plenty of light.

Nothing fancy, just 4' T8s which I bought on sale for 16$ ea. LOL the bulbs cost more.

 

[Lukewarmwater]

Sorry for the late reply..I'm on vacation enjoying the warm Florida sun!
These are the lights I used. I used small rectagle boxes but I think the round curling boxes will work as well. I would double check before installation.
Sorry if this link does not work..

http://www.totalrecessedlighting.co...ion-kit.html?gclid=CIros6rip8MCFW4V7AodtU0AYw

 

[JACDes]

Let's correct the "can light" wattage mistake while at it.............

you mean 44 versus my 40 cans?

ok 44 x 9 = 396 watts

versus

16 X 64 = 1024 watts

what you are missing is a can ligh with a 9 watt CFL consume 9 watts but only produces 550 lumens

a 4' T8 consumes 32 watts but produces 2800 lumens.
so a twin bulb T8 fixture will consume 64 watts but produce 5600 lumens.

we will not get into bulb life etc etc.

if you group the T8 fixtures you don't need all 16 on all the time.

4 T8fixtures = 256 watt or 22,400 lumens
will give you almost as much lumens as all 44 9watt can lights.
44X550 =24,200

16 T8s @ 5600 lumens = 89,600 lumens

vs

44 9w CFL @ 550 lumens = 24,200 lumens

the T8s win hands down.

and the ceiling does not look like swiss cheese.

to get the same lumen output, using CLFs OP would need to use larger CFL bulb means wattage consumption increases as well.

 

[JACDes]

I like can light but you have to plan the design accordingly.. 44 seems way over the top for the size of the space.. you can use half that or less. install higher wattage bulbs that will put out more lumens and get same light quality as T8s..

I may not get into all the silly calculations.. but I have never had issues designing a lighting plan

 

[Criss]

I used this, seemed like not enough lights.

http://recessedlighting.com/toolkit/32788/

 

[JACDes]

I used this, seemed like not enough lights.

http://recessedlighting.com/toolkit/32788/

Try this one instead...

https://www.visual-3d.com/tools/interior/default.aspx

 

[Criss]

That looks sweet. WOW, nearly 80, 6" led recessed lights for my garage. .

Try this one instead...

https://www.visual-3d.com/tools/interior/default.aspx

 

[Orionrising]

Try this one instead...

https://www.visual-3d.com/tools/interior/default.aspx

hmm nifty for simming t8s etc, do they have regular cfls fixtures buried in the options somewhere?

 

[JACDes]

you have to search the folders but I think you can manual enter that information as well.

 

[JACDes]

That looks sweet. WOW, nearly 80, 6" led recessed lights for my garage. .

which why for the amount od f'c you need for ample garage lighting 6" can lights are not the best choice unless you use the correct sized bulb and reflector.

What wattage LED fixture did you use?

with that many holes in the drywall why bother with a finished ceiling?

raise the wattage of the bulb and see what happens..

 

[afbrian13]

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...C-_-NavPLPHorizontal1_rr-_-NA-_-204726945-_-N

These are recessed LED lights we put in our kitchen. They install in 4in round boxes. Dont need a foot of space above them, and install just like any other ceiling mounted lights. I'd love to put some in my garage too, just not at this house.