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Thoughts on patio electrical

happyj

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Aug 22, 2013
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Belfair, Wa
We are putting in a covered patio. The patio is 16x44 with 16x24 covered. I had intended to run 2 individual 20 amp circuits to it. Now I am wondering if I should run a 40amp subpanel and then break them out from there. I have 18 free slots in my breaker so not concerned about space.My wife has already has the couch and dining table and chairs. She is wanting a couple of ir heaters 1500w 120v so I'm thinking I should be good.Anyone have thoughts or different ideas?
 
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Terry D

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In my experience with IR heaters, Those two 120 volt 1500 watt heaters will not be enough for that patio. I recently did a job and installed (2) 3000 watt 240 volt IR heaters on a covered 12x16 screened porch, and that was border line for being enough. Four would have been better. The thing about IR heaters is that they don't heat the air, they heat objects. If you don't have one aimed at you, you will not feel it. IR heaters can get expensive real quick trying to heat your size of patio, and need a lot of power. There are some calculators online that will help figure what you need
 
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dcg9381

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The advantage of the panel is easier to add more in the future (perhaps). But as you know you need 2 x 20A circuits to support those heaters. If I was doing a panel, I'd want 50A feed.
 

rlitman

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In my experience with IR heaters, Those two 120 volt 1500 watt heaters will not be enough for that patio. I recently did a job and installed (2) 3000 watt 240 volt IR heaters on a covered 12x16 screened porch, and that was border line for being enough. Four would have been better. The thing about IR heaters is that they don't heat the air, they heat objects. If you don't have one aimed at you, you will not feel it. IR heaters can get expensive real quick trying to heat your size of patio, and need a lot of power. There are some calculators online that will help figure what you need

Personal experience with 1500W IR heaters here. We did a family Thanksgiving outside last year in my back yard. We had 8 people sitting around a large table (no tent or anything, but we did have some wind breaks), withfour 1500W IR heaters aimed at it from all sides. After sundown, it was below 40F, and while we were wearing sweaters, we all had a comfortable meal.

They don't make the space warm, but they make it quite bearable. When you stepped away from the table, it felt pretty cold (we used steam pans to keep the food from getting immediately chilled). Yes, they're expensive to run, but there's no fuel to store, and you only pay when you're running them. I figure that I spent $6 on electric to run the heaters. I spent more on sterno to keep the food warm. If I were trying to condition a space with them, the budget would be crazy. For the limited hours a month they get used, they're well worth the electrical cost.

So, here's what you need to know.

First, these small IR heaters have a sweet spot for reach. Figure 6-8 feet. Within 3' of mine, and you're cooking. Bigger 240V versions will heat a wider area, but on the 120V plug in stuff, figure that you can warm up two people per heater max.

Second, they heat surfaces, not objects. The distinction is important, because if you have a cushion on your chair and you're wearing a jacket and the IR is hitting you from behind, all of that stuff will block the heat, and only your exposed areas (ears) will be warmed by it. Now, I've got wrought iron patio furniture, so cushions are important to keep the metal from conducting heat away from you, but basically, if you're well covered up, it doesn't do too much. Still, if you aim it to warm your face and hands, which you'll want exposed anyway, it might be just what you need.

Third, 1500W heaters consume a 20A circuit by themselves. I happen to have four different outdoor outlets within reasonable extension cord reach of my back yard. One is on my garage. The other three were home runs back to a box right by my panel, so I was easily able to split them onto separate circuits, so I lucked out. Otherwise it would have been super expensive to do this. So, basically, plan it out so you don't get stuck with too little heat and no way to add more.
 

rlitman

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The advantage of the panel is easier to add more in the future (perhaps). But as you know you need 2 x 20A circuits to support those heaters. If I was doing a panel, I'd want 50A feed.

A 40A 240V panel can supply FOUR 20A 120V circuits.
 

Terry D

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Personal experience with 1500W IR heaters here. We did a family Thanksgiving outside last year in my back yard. We had 8 people sitting around a large table (no tent or anything, but we did have some wind breaks), withfour 1500W IR heaters aimed at it from all sides. After sundown, it was below 40F, and while we were wearing sweaters, we all had a comfortable meal.

They don't make the space warm, but they make it quite bearable. When you stepped away from the table, it felt pretty cold (we used steam pans to keep the food from getting immediately chilled). Yes, they're expensive to run, but there's no fuel to store, and you only pay when you're running them. I figure that I spent $6 on electric to run the heaters. I spent more on sterno to keep the food warm. If I were trying to condition a space with them, the budget would be crazy. For the limited hours a month they get used, they're well worth the electrical cost.

So, here's what you need to know.

First, these small IR heaters have a sweet spot for reach. Figure 6-8 feet. Within 3' of mine, and you're cooking. Bigger 240V versions will heat a wider area, but on the 120V plug in stuff, figure that you can warm up two people per heater max.

Second, they heat surfaces, not objects. The distinction is important, because if you have a cushion on your chair and you're wearing a jacket and the IR is hitting you from behind, all of that stuff will block the heat, and only your exposed areas (ears) will be warmed by it. Now, I've got wrought iron patio furniture, so cushions are important to keep the metal from conducting heat away from you, but basically, if you're well covered up, it doesn't do too much. Still, if you aim it to warm your face and hands, which you'll want exposed anyway, it might be just what you need.

Third, 1500W heaters consume a 20A circuit by themselves. I happen to have four different outdoor outlets within reasonable extension cord reach of my back yard. One is on my garage. The other three were home runs back to a box right by my panel, so I was easily able to split them onto separate circuits, so I lucked out. Otherwise it would have been super expensive to do this. So, basically, plan it out so you don't get stuck with too little heat and no way to add more.
I personally would get 240 volt IR heaters for that size of a space

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rlitman

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I personally would get 240 volt IR heaters for that size of a space

Agreed. For the OP's covered space, permanently mounted 240V heaters are by far the better way to go.

My setup is entirely outside, and while many IR heaters claim they can be exposed like that, many reviews show early failures from being mounted outdoors, so I wanted something easy to put away after I'm done with it. Also, at the time I was buying (last year), 240V heaters were pretty hard to come by, since restaurants wanting to serve customers outside snapped them up.

Two of my heaters were designed to be wall mounted patio heaters, with brackets that can be bolted to the wall where they can be tilted up and down. I bought $10 TV wall arm mounts which allow me to angle left/right as well. The TV mounts have a bracket that goes on the TV, which I connected to my heaters and modified so that I can hang the heater from the arm and easily lift it off, leaving the arm in place. I've got one arm mounted to a fence at the head of the table, and one on a wall along the side.

My other two heaters were actually made for body shop paint drying, and they came with stands, so I can easily sit them at the opposite sides of the table where there was no convenient mounting point otherwise.

40A , 240V panel equals 9600W

Sorry, but for continuous use (which heaters positively fall under) it's only 80% of that, or 7680W.
 
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grounded-b

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Originally Posted by grounded-b:
40A , 240V panel equals 9600W

Sorry, but for continuous use (which heaters positively fall under) it's only 80% of that, or 7680W.

You are correct. Per NEC 424.3(B) - fixed electric space-heating equipment shall be considered continuous-load
 
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mike93lx

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If there is a good place to put a panel, I would do that.

Just make sure it is a 4-wire feed and you will need two ground rods
 

Syberia

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Does your house have natural gas? If so, I would skip the electric heaters entirely and go with a gas model, that way you can also add a grill later if you want.
 

rlitman

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Does your house have natural gas? If so, I would skip the electric heaters entirely and go with a gas model, that way you can also add a grill later if you want.

Natural gas radiant heaters are an interesting idea. They require a lot more clearance to combustible material above however, which might not allow them to work under many coverings, and again, I'm not familiar with ones that are meant to be truly outside.
 

Syberia

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I have a patio heater like the propane ones you see at restaurants but with a natural gas hookup instead. I use it in my outdoor kitchen which is completely separate from the house, and put wheels on it so it can be moved around.

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AntonLargiader

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Charlottesville, VA
I have a thread on this from last Thanksgiving. You eat up a lot of breaker slots with this and I still may go to a subpanel on my porch. I have three 3kW heaters so that is six breaker slots gone and three separate conductors running into the porch just for those, and I still have two heaters that I might install for next year and wiring for other stuff.
 
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happyj

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Aug 22, 2013
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Belfair, Wa
Thanks so much for all the replies. Sorry I have not responded but I had an emergency and have been offline for a while. All is well now. Thanks again.
 
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happyj

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Belfair, Wa
So I am thinking I will drag a 60 amp circuit and put in a sub panel. That should provide room for some growth if needed. I appreciate the statement about the need for grounding although I am not sure how I will be able to do that. Both my patio and crawl space are concrete. Can I just drill through the block wall in the crawl space and sink ground rods just outside? That would mean they were running 25 feet or so. They would end up in a planter bed.
 

Terry D

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So I am thinking I will drag a 60 amp circuit and put in a sub panel. That should provide room for some growth if needed. I appreciate the statement about the need for grounding although I am not sure how I will be able to do that. Both my patio and crawl space are concrete. Can I just drill through the block wall in the crawl space and sink ground rods just outside? That would mean they were running 25 feet or so. They would end up in a planter bed.
Is the patio connected to the house
 
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