Thoughts on Recessed Lights

[Mike951]

I have no sheetrock in my garage yet...30' deep, 2 bays, bathroom in the jog out in rear, thinking of doing recess lights, 4 rows (2 per bay), maybe 4 or 5 in a row front to back.

Good idea? Bad idea? Not enough light?

Just trying to think of some options besides flourescent ones that reduce ceiling height, especially over a lift.

Made this electrical layout, first version of it, I know I have to add/tweak some stuff

-Mike

 

[TWX]

Re: Thoughts on Recess Lights

I think that with so few lights so spread out it'll be dim and shadowy. One bathroom at my house has a heat flood lamp at 250W in the center of a 10x10 room and it's still not terribly bright compared to an 8' fluorescent fixture.

You might be better off with recessed 4' fluorescent fixtures with diffusers like they use in commercial buildings, if you can find any fixtures that'll fit between your joists.

 

[mpraddict]

The showroom room in my garage has cans. It's 34x30 and has 12 cans with 120W equivalent CFL floods. The light is good, but not bright enough for a shop. With cans, you need to consider ceiling height, as the higher the ceiling, the larger the light cone at the floor. Also with cans, assuming you will have insulation above the ceiling, you'll need IC (insulated ceiling) rated fixtures. Some of these have bulb wattage limitations. I'd temporarily wire them up in place and see if it looks bright enough.

 

[gatchel]

I thought about cans also and to get the light levels I wanted cans would have cost much more than tubes, not to mention all of the wiring and terminations needed. I'd say to stick with tubes, (T-8's)

 

[Cobra6]

Re: Thoughts on Recess Lights

I think that with so few lights so spread out it'll be dim and shadowy. One bathroom at my house has a heat flood lamp at 250W in the center of a 10x10 room and it's still not terribly bright compared to an 8' fluorescent fixture.

You might be better off with recessed 4' fluorescent fixtures with diffusers like they use in commercial buildings, if you can find any fixtures that'll fit between your joists.

+1 -
You can go with several types of recessed flourescent fixtures - lots better light - recessed can lights leave spotty light and bad shadows - not a good option IMO.

 

[VPRKLR]

If you use the correct cans and space them correctly it will be fine. Most important question is the ceiling height, generally you want the cans 4' on center. There are some real good led cans on the market know but it would be some serious money. But, you would be at about 1/3 of the total wattage for the same amount of light. If you don't do cans look at T-5 fluorescent.

 

[synik]

Anyone have actual pictures? I'm curious to see what it looks like, at the right exposure taken.

 

[MrMark]

I have a feeling when LED's come down in price, those cans will be the hot ticket for garage lighting. I put cans over the work area and I am going with troffers for general lighting over the parking area. Only have one troffer so far, but I will retrofit a few more.

 

[TWX]

over at work at Operations they're playing with LED replacements for Fluorescent tubes. Remove the ballast, wire it straight, then install the LED strip. They're kinda pricey now, and to my knowledge the ones they're working with are only 277V, but looks like that may come down the pipe later.

 

[ddawg16]

My lower garage is 20x25....I have 16 cans with 23w CFL's in them...I find that it's plenty of light....what I like is that it's easy to change wattage and color....the only thing you can do with tubes is color...

Here are a couple of pics....

This pic is of interest because you can see the difference color makes....look on the right...those are warm white 23w cfl's....on the left, day light...(around 4700K I believe)...and this pic was taken during the day....

 

[Mike951]

Does a recessed flourecent light exist that can be mounted in 16 o.c. joist?

Thanks
Mike

 

[ddawg16]

Does a recessed flourecent light exist that can be mounted in 16 o.c. joist?

Thanks
Mike

Are you talking about the T8 tube style? If so, yes. You can also get them to fit 12" OC...I almost went that way....but I had issues getting the lights where I wanted them....the cans worked out better..

 

[Mike951]

Yes, I have seen ones for 12 OC, but I am trying to find ones for 16OC so I don't have to do any additional framing to close in my 16OC's to 12OC

Thanks
Mike

 

[Mavawreck]

LED retrofits are between 35-50 bucks a pop depending on what part of the country you're in. Most are supposed to be good for 15-20 yrs too I believe. Easy to install, good light, no heat, ICF compliant, cheaper bills.

 

[ddawg16]

Yes, I have seen ones for 12 OC, but I am trying to find ones for 16OC so I don't have to do any additional framing to close in my 16OC's to 12OC

Thanks
Mike

All the fixtures I have seen are adjustable.....the ones I used had support straps that you could break off part of to make it fit into a smaller space. In your case, just nail in place and put the light where you want it....more than enough adjustment range to pretty much put it where you want it.

LED retrofits are between 35-50 bucks a pop depending on what part of the country you're in. Most are supposed to be good for 15-20 yrs too I believe. Easy to install, good light, no heat, ICF compliant, cheaper bills.

Lets expand on this....

The average LED light available right now is 'maybe' 10% more effecient than an equivilant CFL. Look at the box....most are claiming a 25K hour life.....that works out to about 3x the life of a CFL. Your average CFL is $4 or less. Hence, during the life of an LED light, I would need to buy 3 CFL's....that's $12 vs $40 (or more). With an only 10% power advantage....the payback is not there. And that is assuming the LED gives you 25K hours.....the big problem they have is that the support electronics to drop the 120Vac down to the 3Vdc or so that LED's use is a lot more complicated than the electronic ballast for a CFL.

With that said, LED's do have a viable place now....cold climate....instant on...and more dimmable....

As I have said before, I don't think LED's are the holly grail of lighting. A T5 lamp out performs any LED light on effeciency.....

I'm not jumping on the LED bandwagon.

 

[Mike951]

All the fixtures I have seen are adjustable.....the ones I used had support straps that you could break off part of to make it fit into a smaller space. In your case, just nail in place and put the light where you want it....more than enough adjustment range to pretty much put it where you want it.QUOTE]

I would be trying to fit it into a larger space though, 16" OC Joists

You are saying they are made for 12" opening but can mount in a 16" opening and have 2" "play" on each side? Do they slide back and forth on the brackets that mount them into the opening?

-Mike

 

[MrMark]

Yes, I have seen ones for 12 OC, but I am trying to find ones for 16OC so I don't have to do any additional framing to close in my 16OC's to 12OC

Thanks
Mike

They're not for 12 OC, they are for 16 OC. The actual dimension is about 11.75 wide. You have to add wood stripping to the framing on the sides to make it work. They are not adjustable. Some have hangers that hang off the stripping. It is a lot of work. The trick is to find the combination of dimensional lumber that makes it work. I think I used a 2X on one side and 1X on the other. It's best to box in across the front and back too for a couple reasons. One, it makes it possible to cut the sheetrock out correctly and, two, you can screw through the ends to secure the fixture.

Tough process but best look. Problem is that without special order they only come 2 tubes per fixture and this look obviously comes at a price in terms of fixture cost and labor.

 

[ddawg16]

Oh.....my bad.....I thought we were talking about cans.....not tubes......

 

[Mavawreck]

I'm not jumping on the LED bandwagon.

Lighting ain't exactly my thing - I usually go at it from the logic that most people are not happy with CFL's and the CREE LED's I've been installing last much longer and provide a better quality of light. You could also buy ten ratchets from Wal Mart for the price of one Snap On but you're going to be happier with the Snap On.

A T5 isn't going to help him in a can light.

One of the big advantages to the LED's to me is that it allows you to air seal the can light to stop air leakage. Even most ICF rated cans are a source of air movement between interior and exterior spaces.

 

[BTC]

I just built a new house and used quite a few cans on the interior. Can they easily, and affordably, be converted to LED cans? I think they're all Halo 6" cans. I can't remember the model number, but they're the kind that allow for direct contact with insulation.

 

[TWX]

Last night I worked on the alternator bracket on my Nissan Hardbody, and with a row of 8' T12 fluorescents behind me I still didn't have enough light.

 

[Ch3No2]

I endured this dilema and when I walked in to a friends garage with recessed troffers I was amazed how clean it was compared to 8' shop lights so I went with 2' x 4' recessed.....lot more work on the framing part but I will get the 4 tube double ballast lights and have extra switches

 

[Mavawreck]

I just built a new house and used quite a few cans on the interior. Can they easily, and affordably, be converted to LED cans? I think they're all Halo 6" cans. I can't remember the model number, but they're the kind that allow for direct contact with insulation.

roughly $50.00 a piece, less if you live in the NE. Not complicated, a monkey could do it. Takes me a twenty minutes or so per light to take them a apart, seal the inside of the can, and then neatly caulk the bezel. I believe that code will allow you to insulate them now that they have been modified to no longer accept incandescent bulbs. But I would call your local inspector first.

 

[MrMark]

I endured this dilema and when I walked in to a friends garage with recessed troffers I was amazed how clean it was compared to 8' shop lights so I went with 2' x 4' recessed.....lot more work on the framing part but I will get the 4 tube double ballast lights and have extra switches

That's wild. You put them across the joists. Those are non-structural? Just there for sheetrock?

Tell me more, I am very interested in what you did.

 

[Ch3No2]

That's wild. You put them across the joists. Those are non-structural? Just there for sheetrock?

Tell me more, I am very interested in what you did.

The joists are very structural as it will support the drywall ceiling...that is why the jopists are doubled up at each end of the light opening thus giving it the same strength as if the 2 joists were in place of the false joists in the head outs. A company called LA Lighting makes a steel flange trim ring to be installed after drywall that will provide a perimeter lip so to speak and then the light drops in to the opening

 

[BoostAddiction]

LED retrofits are between 35-50 bucks a pop depending on what part of the country you're in. Most are supposed to be good for 15-20 yrs too I believe. Easy to install, good light, no heat, ICF compliant, cheaper bills.

I've been using LED lights in cans for my office now for about 12 months. This is about 3 times the normal life for the incandescents they replaced, but then the bulbs cost 10 times more than the old style ones.

The ones I have (from Maxxima) are not very bright. I would suggest that you be sure to buy lights by lumens, not watts. I did, went down some, and regret it. Being old is no fun, as I find my eyes need more and more light to keep contrast up.

They are supposed to last for a long time, and I expect the LED portion of them probably will (though they have a lot of heat sinking in the bulbs, which leads me to believe they run hotter than you might expect), but the real issue will likely be the electronics that control the lights internally. One of my bulbs has already started to lose half of the LEDs occasionally (then they come back on later), and it's pretty clear that it has to do with the bulb electronics. So the expected 10-15 year life doesn't seem as sure as you might infer from "normal" LEDs alone.

The LED bulbs I have also have a clear lens, which is good except that looking up at them hurts your eyes. The frosted lens variants, which presumably don't have this issue, lose a considerable amount of light because of the frosting on the lens. So you need to consider this when you select bulbs.

Bottom line to me, is that you will likely need to have twice as many fixtures as you would with the old-style bulbs, which adds a considerable expense to the cost side of the ledger when comparing TCO for a specific amount of light.

And the reliability still has to be proven, as none of the LED bulbs in use today have been in service long enough to validate the claimed life spans.

Finally, consider the ceiling height very carefully. High ceilings require much more light to obtain the same light at the work surface. There are charts on the web to help you visualize this.

 

[MrMark]

The joists are very structural as it will support the drywall ceiling...that is why the jopists are doubled up at each end of the light opening thus giving it the same strength as if the 2 joists were in place of the false joists in the head outs. A company called LA Lighting makes a steel flange trim ring to be installed after drywall that will provide a perimeter lip so to speak and then the light drops in to the opening

I don't see any joist hangers. You just headed each opening off by nailing into the cut off joists? You put doublers on each side just to carry drywall? That's a crazy amount of work and expense to carry a drywall ceiling load. Very interesting though.

 

[Ch3No2]

I don't see any joist hangers. You just headed each opening off by nailing into the cut off joists? You put doublers on each side just to carry drywall? That's a crazy amount of work and expense to carry a drywall ceiling load. Very interesting though.

Thats what Structural Engineers are paid for but what do I know...the doublers are there to carry the 20' span for the drywall where the false joists are connecting to the headouts
I agree it would have been crazy and expensive to use hangers for a small headout just for drywall