THQP GFCI DFCI etc

[SGKent]

Have a GE panel from 1979 that takes THQP 1/2" wide breakers except the ones going to 240 V circuits which are wider. Anyone know of 1/2 wide GFCI or DFCI certified breakers for GE THQP panels that would fit?

There are a couple circuits in the house where a GFCI receptacle would be inaccessible other than by use of a ladder or moving a big appliance. Since they were put in before the 2011 code they would probably be grandfathered but my concern is that a new roof will be put on and there are some clauses in the city and state codes that get enforced before a permit can be signed off. One of the neighbors recently was forced to upgrade to GFCI receptacles in the 1979 house to get a roof signed off. They have since moved so they aren't available to ask what it was that triggered that enforcement since it hasn't happened to others that I know of. Because three of the GFCI receptacles in the garage are over 6' 7" in height it was optional when I put them in back about 1991 but is no longer. My concern is an inspector says they aren't accessible because you need a ladder to get to them so you need a GFCI or DFCI breaker. I can't find any 1/2" GE THQP GFCI or DFCI breakers browsing the Internet. Everything is 1 inch and adding a couple 1" breakers would not work easily in the existing service panel. Almost all the existing breakers are 1/2" wide, and all spots but two at the very bottom are taken.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thats odd that a new roof would trigger a GFCI update

 

[Jim greengo]

Sounds like it's time to move to me.

 

[Norcal]

I can see smoke & CO alarms being required or to upgrade with to current code because of the the roof, but the rest seems to be far fetched, but if they do that sh*t, I'd tell the city & the neighbors that was going start patching the roof with mismatched shingles of any color.

GE GFCI circuit breakers are 1" wide there is no other size option, other options are GFCI receptacles, or blank face GFCI's.

 

[SGKent]

Thanks. My neighbor and I both thought that it was weird for the GFCI thing with a roof but apparently he knew about it because the folks a few doors away were complaining about their roofing final being held up. They were trying to get the house ready to sell it.

I am already dealing with the smoke detector thing. The 2011 Calif code change says to final any new permit one smoke detector is required in each bedroom and if there is an attic, which there is, the detectors need to be interconnected. We have a hard wired smoke and CO detector in the hallway and an ADT smoke detector next to it for the alarm. They don't talk to each other, and while I can add 3 more for the bedrooms, and replace the one outside the bedroom doors that do talk to one another, there is no way all of them will ever talk to each other unless we get ADT out to put in detectors in each room and the hall that talk to each other and ADT. I have no desire to go pull a permit to put in boxes for 4 hard wired detectors that in 5 years the State will say should go back to batteries. These codes are a gift to the companies who support the politicians here in California. Prices on detectors are triple what they were before 2011. If someone can't hear the alarm 1' outside the bedroom doors then they won't hear one a foot closer to them.

 

[Stuart in MN]

If you're forced to make some circuits GFCI protected, you could maybe mount one of those blank face GFCI's in a handy box adjacent to your panel and then run the circuit through it.

 

[SGKent]

Thanks Stu - great idea but unfortunately the main panel is outside and all the wiring is in the walls which is another issue. When I had the remaining part of the garage drywalled and insulated in 2006 or so the city said as long as we weren't doing structural work with it then no permit was needed. But I am worried in part because they have been getting so **** lately they tagged a neighbor who has a permitted garage addition done before the city incorporated. The county permitted it back then. He took all his paperwork and final to the city and they agreed it was legal. Then two weeks later they sent a legal notice informing him they were filing suit and assessing fees with foreclosure as the intent because he had not responded to the tag. He went back down to city hall and gave them the name date and person he talked to so they dropped it. He called the county and asked if they gave the city the permits when they incorporated and they said yes, we mailed them some microfiches with old permits in them. That was around 1996 or so - even then who used microfiche except genealogists. We know the council members so I told my friend you need to get to know the people who represent you because this is the kind of thing you call them on.

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

If someone can't hear the alarm 1' outside the bedroom doors then they won't hear one a foot closer to them.

The reason for them being in the bedroom is more than just hearing them. If a fire starts in a bedroom, and the door is closed, the hallway smoke detector isn't going to pick it up.

These items are considered life saving devices. I would but them in regardless of it the city makes you.

The ADT smoke detectors are for insurance purposes. I don't know more than that about them.


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[Norcal]

If you're forced to make some circuits GFCI protected, you could maybe mount one of those blank face GFCI's in a handy box adjacent to your panel and then run the circuit through it.

A handy box?? You have never tried to install a large device in those POS boxes, they are as useful as a screen door on the hull of a submarine.

 

[Showkey]

Thats odd that a new roof would trigger a GFCI update

.

Really odd, just completed a roof on both buildings, no questions about the rest of the structures, if they did an inspection it was a drive by.

Sounds like it's time to move to me.

Your right..........between the GFCI and the decking being placed for under size. This is turning into a huge cluster. Seeing a complete new service in your future ??????

Can’t wait for the refrigerator or freezer nuisance trip after the project is completed. Maybe they will ask for arc fault breakers too...........to add another level of protection ( cost and complexity).

 

[alfredeneuman]

I've never heard of a DFCI
What is it?

 

[mm08822]

I've never heard of a DFCI
What is it?

Dead front gfci device

 

[SGKent]

GFCI - Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter - protects against ground faults
AFCI - Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter - protects against arc faults
DFCI - Dual Fault Circuit Interrupter - protects against both.

I had to look it up too. According to articles online the 2014 NEC which has not been fully implemented yet requires DFCI in laundries and and kitchens. Just wait until AI gets involved in the NEC and they begin to make smart panels that think for themselves. "Open the pod bay door Hal... Sorry Dave"

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Correct term is dual function not dual fault

But i doubt they were referring to a dual function breaker.

Dead front GFCI would make more sense in this situation.

 

[Lioneye724]

What state/city jurisdiction are you in?

 

[SGKent]

What state/city jurisdiction are you in?

California, Sacramento County, Citrus Heights.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I guess that's easier than saying "Combination AFCI/GFCI" which is what they're marketed as now

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I guess that's easier than saying "Combination AFCI/GFCI" which is what they're marketed as now

Nope

A combination AFCI detects both types of arcing faults- parallel and series

A dual function is AFCI and GFCI

https://www.jadelearning.com/combin...dual-function-arc-fault-gfci-circuit-breaker/

 

[dw1]

You said 1/2" wide breaker, is there any more room in the panel? will a single pole 1" wide breaker fit in the panel? If so, you can use an Eaton CL GFCI, it is listed for that panel. (This will not fit where the 1/2" breaker is) Can you move breakers around and put a 1" wide breaker in the two open spots on the bottom?

 

[Norcal]

You said 1/2" wide breaker, is there any more room in the panel? will a single pole 1" wide breaker fit in the panel? If so, you can use an Eaton CL GFCI, it is listed for that panel. (This will not fit where the 1/2" breaker is) Can you move breakers around and put a 1" wide breaker in the two open spots on the bottom?

Why use a UL classified breaker when a OEM is available? Only OEM breakers are listed for the same panel, Eaton CE is UL classified for many competitive panels, but if the same make is is available for a panel it makes more sense to use it, no need to prove it has been classified to be used.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You said 1/2" wide breaker, is there any more room in the panel? will a single pole 1" wide breaker fit in the panel? If so, you can use an Eaton CL GFCI, it is listed for that panel. (This will not fit where the 1/2" breaker is) Can you move breakers around and put a 1" wide breaker in the two open spots on the bottom?

Whats the point in that? GE panels and breakers are not obsolete.

A classified breaker will not be smaller than an OEM so your suggestion does not work.

Certain GE breakers such as the OPs are 1/2" wide for single pole breakers.

 

[SGKent]

I don't know if I can move all the breakers down to create room for it. That was plan B if plan A to find a 1/2" one failed. I've read that the 2020 NEC will require DFCI for the kitchen and laundry. That is 3, maybe 4 circuits. The garage ones are 3 circuits. I doubt if there is room to add seven 1" wide where there are seven 1/2" now. Right now only two are needed but who knows in four or five years when I go to sell this place. You know this is California and when it comes to laws, bet nanny. Its like the 2nd amendment stuff here - they don't ban guns, just buying ammunition or importing it without the state DOJ's approval on each purchase, and their motto is "just say no, if that fails say the computer is down right now."

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I don't know if I can move all the breakers down to create room for it. That was plan B if plan A to find a 1/2" one failed. I've read that the 2020 NEC will require DFCI for the kitchen and laundry. That is 3, maybe 4 circuits. The garage ones are 3 circuits. I doubt if there is room to add seven 1" wide where there are seven 1/2" now. Right now only two are needed but who knows in four or five years when I go to sell this place. You know this is California and when it comes to laws, bet nanny. Its like the 2nd amendment stuff here - they don't ban guns, just buying ammunition or importing it without the state DOJ's approval on each purchase, and their motto is "just say no, if that fails say the computer is down right now."

There is nothing in the state code that requires what you claim.

I would inquire with the city for the local WRITTEN amendments that are mandating you upgrade the breakers when putting a new roof on.

sounds like hogwash to me.

Also, you wouldnt be required to upgrade the other circuits just because you are selling. Your house would be grandfathered in. the AHJ cannot make you upgrade for simply selling.

In regards to 2A laws, the state HAS banned certain handguns, namely any that are not on the roster. Also, ammo imports that do not go through an FFL are illegal. And if the DOJ database is down for an ammo purchase eligibility check, then the ammo seller has a phone number to call.

 

[SGKent]

Thank Wylie

 

[dw1]

Whats the point in that? GE panels and breakers are not obsolete. I realize this, just giving another option, the only place to find GE breakers around here is HD and they do not carry a GE GFI breaker in the store

A classified breaker will not be smaller than an OEM so your suggestion does not work. I didn't say it was smaller, if you can move the 1/2" breakers around to free up and make a 1" space, it could help the OP out

Certain GE breakers such as the OPs are 1/2" wide for single pole breakers.

,
I realize this and they only fit in certain spots in this panel, back in the days, this panel was only listed for GE breakers, I believe type NI (Non Interchangeable) you can remove a tab in the breaker base mount to get certain breakers to fit in this panel, I think they made a tool, but needle nose pliers will work. The Eaton Type CL breaker is listed for this panel as a replacement breaker, it could be easier to find for the OP

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I realize this, just giving another option, the only place to find GE breakers around here is HD and they do not carry a GE GFI breaker in the store.

I didn't say it was smaller, if you can move the 1/2" breakers around to free up and make a 1" space, it could help the OP out

I realize this and they only fit in certain spots in this panel, back in the days, this panel was only listed for GE breakers, I believe type NI (Non Interchangeable) you can remove a tab in the breaker base mount to get certain breakers to fit in this panel, I think they made a tool, but needle nose pliers will work. The Eaton Type CL breaker is listed for this panel as a replacement breaker, it could be easier to find for the OP

If he only has two 1/2" slots available, how would moving breakers around in the panel free up enough space for three 1" breakers? that doesnt make sense.

And he already said the spaces are next to each other so moving them around is not necessary.

 

[mm08822]

Chances are it is a CTL panel - hence the rejection feature on the stabs and would need to remain in place.

 

[SGKent]

the panel takes 1/2" and 1" breakers. It takes double 1" breakers for 240. The problem is that only two 1/2" spots are surplus. To add more available spots would require putting some of the dedicated circuits together. I don't want to do that at this time, but if I did I would hire an electrician to do that and have him/her look over everything just because. All of the circuits in the garage are original other than the ones that were added in the early 1990's and permitted. I will probably just change out the remaining original receptacles for GFCI ones for safety reasons. The same in the kitchen rather than replace the breakers with 1" DFCI ones.

Additional Q. When I am up in the attic running catv cables, should I seal all the spots where the romex goes thru holes drilled thru the top plate, around ceiling boxes etc with the red sealant? The house was built in 1979 and they didn't do things like that back then.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

the panel takes 1/2" and 1" breakers. It takes double 1" breakers for 240. The problem is that only two 1/2" spots are surplus. To add more available spots would require putting some of the dedicated circuits together. I don't want to do that at this time, but if I did I would hire an electrician to do that and have him/her look over everything just because. All of the circuits in the garage are original other than the ones that were added in the early 1990's and permitted. I will probably just change out the remaining original receptacles for GFCI ones for safety reasons. The same in the kitchen rather than replace the breakers with 1" DFCI ones.

Additional Q. When I am up in the attic running catv cables, should I seal all the spots where the romex goes thru holes drilled thru the top plate, around ceiling boxes etc with the red sealant? The house was built in 1979 and they didn't do things like that back then.

How many dedicated circuits do you have in the garage for outlets? You only need one GFCI receptacle per circuit.

 

[SGKent]

How many dedicated circuits do you have in the garage for outlets? You only need one GFCI receptacle per circuit.

2. 20 amp circuit at my work bench, garage door opener, and a motion light at front of garage.

The other dedicated circuits in the house are ceiling fan, whole house fan, lights and receptacle in the attic (GFCI protected run), where the spa used to be (main breaker off right now but GFCI at the outside box if ever reused*), and the breaker for the shed sub-panel. FYI - I cut back all the shelves to clear 4' near that panel in the shed per our earlier discussion.

* I have a gas kitchen stove but these homes were originally 240V cooktop, and separate oven. That circuit could also be rerouted to the kitchen to go back to electric if the next owner wanted that or they could add a spa. It is I recollect 6 ga copper while the original to the stove was aluminum.

 

[AntonLargiader]

So the spa circuit used to be the cooktop circuit but it's currently unused?

 

[SGKent]

So the spa circuit used to be the cooktop circuit but it's currently unused?

no. The cooktop circuit was aluminum. It was disconnected at both ends and pulled out although the cable may still be in the attic with each end coiled up and taped.

The spa was a separate run of #6 copper I think. It was whatever the charts and spa manufacturer required, and the city signed off on it. The cable from the outside GFCI box to a spa has been removed because the spa is gone, and both breakers are off and marked to remain off unless someone needs that circuit for another spa. I could pull it out to regain the two 1" breaker spaces but it would be a PITA to put it back in at a later date plus I would have to repair the siding where the GFCI box is now. We have two dog runs where the spa was but the next buyer might want a spa. The problem with them is that unless you use them regularly the cost of maintaining them and the power draw costs too much these days. I also got tired of killing black widow spiders that moved in.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I say use the panel the way you want, and let the next guy use it the way he wants. Don't make his potential desire for a spa your problem now.

Sounds like you have three 1" slots if you use the breaker space from the spa. No need to remove the recep; just cap off the wire in the panel.