Franz©
Banned
http://z6.invisionfree.com/ToolBoxTalk/index.php?showtopic=1585
If you have a garage/shop, you need to protect it and yourself.
If you have a garage/shop, you need to protect it and yourself.
Thread you need to read
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russlaferrera
Well-known member
I do agree with your assessment of what happened. I feel that he should at least, had a smoke alarm, a sprinkler system would be better.
Anyone with a shop that has flammables needs additional protection.
Anyone with a shop that has flammables needs additional protection.
Blue
Well-known member
This may be a dumb questrion, but...
Franz, are you the Don of that thread?
Franz, are you the Don of that thread?
rose jackets67
Well-known member
I don't really appreciate the tone you use on the other page - mainly, the sarcastic use of 'brave' in caps over and over. There was no human being or animal at risk in that situation. No one to save. Everything in that shop can easily be replaced. If an oxygen or acetylene bottle HAD ruptured and killed a brave (not sarcastic) man or woman who went in to save your goods (and not something far more important like the life of a friend or family member), what would your tone have been?
I don't give a **** about you house, tools, or garage... especially with your attitude. If a firefighter had died, would you have cared as much about them as you do about your lost possesions? A smoke alarm or installed sprinkler system would have been a good start, especially somewhere where heat and fire are the main tool used... but what do I know.
I don't give a **** about you house, tools, or garage... especially with your attitude. If a firefighter had died, would you have cared as much about them as you do about your lost possesions? A smoke alarm or installed sprinkler system would have been a good start, especially somewhere where heat and fire are the main tool used... but what do I know.
I'd love to see a sprinkler system in a garage...would be nice, but it's not going to happen in most garages.
If in fact Don = Franz, I don't think it's fair to judge how he is reacting. I might react the same way. As far as I'm concerned, firemen should be there to save property as much as they should be there to save lives. Watching it burn isn't a nice thing to do.
So how do you protect your garage?
If in fact Don = Franz, I don't think it's fair to judge how he is reacting. I might react the same way. As far as I'm concerned, firemen should be there to save property as much as they should be there to save lives. Watching it burn isn't a nice thing to do.
So how do you protect your garage?
Steve in Mi
Well-known member
I agree. The best protection I know of is ample insurance.
NO, I am NOT Don. I already have far superior protection to what Don had in terms of extinguishers, and after seeing what the BRAVE assholes purporting to be firemen did in this situation, I'm installing 450 pounds of Co2 cylinders on a manifold into my shop for additional protection.
As to the screaming C***s calling themselves firemen all they are good for is telling stupid wimmen how brave they are.
I said it before and I'll say it again, the bastards chose to let it burn! That fire could easily have been knocked down by punching a hole in the shop door and inserting a booster line nozzle set to fog, and it could have been done with less than 1000 gallons of water.
There was absolutely no need for any fireman to enter the building to knock the fire down.
There was no damn excuse for the second rig in not making the hydrant and connecting to the ladder until a Chief arrived. If you take the Kings money you fight the King's fight, and dammit if a taxpayer funded agency claims competence it can either perform or get the hell out of the way. We had far superior firefighting around here 30 years ago at 1/10 the cost, with far less sophisticated equipment and 2½" lines rather than 5" lines. Last I checked nobody was Drafted into the Fire Department, and there is a long line waiting to get in.
I am damn sick and tired of hearing all the BRAVE HERO Fireman **** that has permiated this country since 9/11/01 when a damn fool chief staged his men in a building any damn fool knew was going to collapse. All it is is another scam played for the purpose of self agrandisement and pussie punching.
As to the screaming C***s calling themselves firemen all they are good for is telling stupid wimmen how brave they are.
I said it before and I'll say it again, the bastards chose to let it burn! That fire could easily have been knocked down by punching a hole in the shop door and inserting a booster line nozzle set to fog, and it could have been done with less than 1000 gallons of water.
There was absolutely no need for any fireman to enter the building to knock the fire down.
There was no damn excuse for the second rig in not making the hydrant and connecting to the ladder until a Chief arrived. If you take the Kings money you fight the King's fight, and dammit if a taxpayer funded agency claims competence it can either perform or get the hell out of the way. We had far superior firefighting around here 30 years ago at 1/10 the cost, with far less sophisticated equipment and 2½" lines rather than 5" lines. Last I checked nobody was Drafted into the Fire Department, and there is a long line waiting to get in.
I am damn sick and tired of hearing all the BRAVE HERO Fireman **** that has permiated this country since 9/11/01 when a damn fool chief staged his men in a building any damn fool knew was going to collapse. All it is is another scam played for the purpose of self agrandisement and pussie punching.
Blue
Well-known member
Just curious:
Were the firemen pros (ie getting paid), or was it a voulenteer force (i.e. out in the countryside somewhere).
Were the firemen pros (ie getting paid), or was it a voulenteer force (i.e. out in the countryside somewhere).
It should make no difference. It is a job like any other.
I have two dry chemical extinguishers in my hole, plus a charged H2O unit. There is also a 1 1/2" connection plumbed to the domestic pressure tank with 75 feet of hose and a fog nozzle at the ready. More to come.
We have an excellent FD here, but they are 11 miles away. I will do what I can in the 15 minutes it takes them to get here.
ovilla
Well-known member
I've seen a few fires in our area, some that were "extinguished" quickly and others that simply burned to the ground. Either way, there was nothing left in any condition that you'd want to continue using. Honestly, I think it would be even easier when talking to your insurance company about what burned down versus having to fight over whether or not a piece of equipment or tool is still serviceable or needs replacement. I feel bad for Don losing everything but that's what insurance is for. I've been through a house fire and I remember losing everything and it sucked. Insurance will not replace any emotional attachment to anything within his shop but it will at least replace everything within it. Maybe a fireman can chime in with what the procedure is when reaching a site. Personally, human life is the only thing worth rescuing. I would hate to be in a situation where some other individual got hurt or killed trying to rescue property. Or worse yet, have the Fire Dept not being able to respond to some other emergency because they're too busy trying to save my shop. I don't care how much of a classic a car is or how much a tool or piece of equipment is worth in a garage. It can all be replaced. If the BRAVE firemen had not gone in to the building to attemp to rescue a person, then I would be upset. If I were you I'd try to get an understanding as to what is standard operating procedure for your town, taking into consideration the training and equipment that they have. A buddy of mine used to be a volunteer fireman in his small town and the only thing they did besides trying to save people from fires was ensure that the fire didn't spread to other properties. They did extinguish some fires but others they simply watched burn to the ground.
boiler7904
Well-known member
I used to work down the street from a full time paid department fire station with round the clock live in crews. When I say down the street, it was literally less than 500 yards away - no stops signs - no stop lights - no cross streets - not even another building between them and us. Just an open field and a creek / small wetland area.
Our building had a false alarm in the middle of the day. Fire department took 11 minutes to get to the building.
Ever since then, I never count on the proximity of the fire department to determine response time in an emergency. On the other hand, I've seen volunteer responses to calls in less than 5 minutes. Go figure.The Fire Department is now a paid Union Fire Department. The Union members took over a volunteer department that had existed for 75 years, and have turned it into a fine UNION institution. They are so good at UNION firefighting they are presently well down the path of taking over a neighboring department.
Lets get off the rescue horseshit! I have said it at least 3 times, THERE WAS NO REASON FOR ANY FIREMAN TO ENTER THE BUILDING TO SUPRESS THE FIRE!! This fire could have easily been supressed with under 1000 gallons of water by simply putting a 1½" nozzle through a hole punched in the door and setting the nozzle on fog. It's done all the time by rural firemen who must fight fires with limited water.
Any fireman with an ounce of brains would have known entering this building would have resulted in FLASHOVER as soon as an entry port was opened. The post fire burn patterns clearly indicate that. The fire DID flashover once it penetrated the wall nearest the point of origin. From then on it was balls to the wall fire.
INSURANCE: Unless you have a lot of experience buying that product, I suggest you read your homeowner's policy. Carriers have gotten real clever in the last few years when it comes to limiting what they pay for, and how much they pay. If you ever sold a car they will try screwing you because you didn't have a business policy to cover all the cars in your inventory.
Lets get off the rescue horseshit! I have said it at least 3 times, THERE WAS NO REASON FOR ANY FIREMAN TO ENTER THE BUILDING TO SUPRESS THE FIRE!! This fire could have easily been supressed with under 1000 gallons of water by simply putting a 1½" nozzle through a hole punched in the door and setting the nozzle on fog. It's done all the time by rural firemen who must fight fires with limited water.
Any fireman with an ounce of brains would have known entering this building would have resulted in FLASHOVER as soon as an entry port was opened. The post fire burn patterns clearly indicate that. The fire DID flashover once it penetrated the wall nearest the point of origin. From then on it was balls to the wall fire.
INSURANCE: Unless you have a lot of experience buying that product, I suggest you read your homeowner's policy. Carriers have gotten real clever in the last few years when it comes to limiting what they pay for, and how much they pay. If you ever sold a car they will try screwing you because you didn't have a business policy to cover all the cars in your inventory.
Thomarann
Well-known member
Steve in Mi
Well-known member
Yes read the policy to know what is covered and what is not covered. When my best friends shop burned to the ground 2 years ago I learned some important lessons about insurance. One item was that vehicles without current registration and plates aren't covered. Doesn't matter if you have receipts for multiple thousands that went into each of them, without current plates they are considered parts and that category pays a max of $500.00. Another item, even with preminum policy replacement value you must have enough total coverage to support a complete loss. They do happen. Be sure that your coverage reflects the current cost to replace both the structure/s and the contents or be prepared to eat the difference. Now this is for an investigated case where no negligence was shown. If it could be shown/proven that say (just for example) exposed foam insulation added fuel to the fire increasing the flame spread and resulting damage - I wonder if that might be basis for denying part or all of a claim. My insurance agent has inspected my place 2 or 3 times and the only suggestion he has made was that I move my acetylene torches from the attached garage to the detached shop - which I eagerly did. Other than that he keeps saying "it looks good, it looks good" as he walks thru looking things over.
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
Maybe they chose to let it burn because of the risk involved and maybe it was already past the point of saving it. I have yet to see any fire department at any town I lived in to say "let it burn" unless there was risk involved. Way cheaper to let it burn instead of a fireman or firemen getting so close that a few tanks explode. A couple of those tanks explode and the complete building is exploding. A fireman close enough would probably lose his life. And if they do not know what all chemicals are in there then there is the hazard of toxic fumes. If the owner was smart, he would have had the building insured and all of the contents insured. Insurance is way cheaper than someone losing a life. Everytime I do a remodel, or add another building, I contact the insurance company to let them know. If you don't, your lucky to get $10-15k for the loss. That is what the norm is around here for most outbuildings. $10k on structure and $5k for contents.
Jey
Well-known member
this is why you never rely on anyone else to do their job.
some are brave, some are there for they paycheck, it's like any job.
some are brave, some are there for they paycheck, it's like any job.
I agree with Kevin54. Although I do appreciate that, after the fact, it's clear the heat damage to the O/A setup is minimal, there isn't a fire service out there that will send its guys into a building with a hot O/A set if there's no risk to life. Having a set in a workshop attached to a residence may be common, but, to be blunt, it's stupid.
I'm not a fireman but you guys seem hard on yours.
Have you seen the results of a BLEVE? I would not get anywhere near the lethal range of a possible BLEVE and I certainly wouldn't criticise someone for not adopting the same philosophy. There are too many unknowns in the manner in which high pressure cylinders react in a fire to take unnecessary risks.
Something material like a workshop has zero value against a human life. Why risk their lives when no one else's is at risk. It's Don's responsibility to safeguard his livelihood.
So Franz what would you and Don be saying of one of these so said cowards was killed or maimed from an exploding gas cylinder?
You might like to think a bit deeper?
Have you seen the results of a BLEVE? I would not get anywhere near the lethal range of a possible BLEVE and I certainly wouldn't criticise someone for not adopting the same philosophy. There are too many unknowns in the manner in which high pressure cylinders react in a fire to take unnecessary risks.
Something material like a workshop has zero value against a human life. Why risk their lives when no one else's is at risk. It's Don's responsibility to safeguard his livelihood.
So Franz what would you and Don be saying of one of these so said cowards was killed or maimed from an exploding gas cylinder?
You might like to think a bit deeper?
HDJ, do you even have any damn idea what a BLEVE is?
By definition it cannot occurr with acetelene.
AGAIN, when the hell did every phucking ffireman in this country get Drafted into the job?
Intelligent firefighting would have put nobody at any risk higher than the ride to work in their car that morning. These punks purport to be skilled professionals, worthy of high wages dipped from my pocket without my concent, and yet prove over and over they are nothing like a professional, let alone skilled.
These people are paid to protect life and property, note theproperty part. If firefighting is now going to be defined as only putting out conveneint easy fires, we might as well just eliminate fore departments and invest the saved money in extra insurance.
If I did my job the way these punks do theirs, I'd have been out of work long ago.
I could have knocked this fire down in less than 10 minutes with an 1½" booster line, and would not have considered it a hazard to do so.
""So Franz what would you and Don be saying of one of these so said cowards was killed or maimed from an exploding gas cylinder? ""
My answer to that is very direct, You take the reward, you also take the risk. Don't have the balls to fight fires, get another job, and make room for a man who does.
You get killed fighting a fire, your widow gets a very nice lifetime pension, and so do your kids. That's the risk you took when you raised your right hand and accepted the job. Same applys to cops.
Just because you ride to work on a expensive red truck with flashing lights you aren't exempt from doing the work when you get there.
By definition it cannot occurr with acetelene.
AGAIN, when the hell did every phucking ffireman in this country get Drafted into the job?
Intelligent firefighting would have put nobody at any risk higher than the ride to work in their car that morning. These punks purport to be skilled professionals, worthy of high wages dipped from my pocket without my concent, and yet prove over and over they are nothing like a professional, let alone skilled.
These people are paid to protect life and property, note theproperty part. If firefighting is now going to be defined as only putting out conveneint easy fires, we might as well just eliminate fore departments and invest the saved money in extra insurance.
If I did my job the way these punks do theirs, I'd have been out of work long ago.
I could have knocked this fire down in less than 10 minutes with an 1½" booster line, and would not have considered it a hazard to do so.
""So Franz what would you and Don be saying of one of these so said cowards was killed or maimed from an exploding gas cylinder? ""
My answer to that is very direct, You take the reward, you also take the risk. Don't have the balls to fight fires, get another job, and make room for a man who does.
You get killed fighting a fire, your widow gets a very nice lifetime pension, and so do your kids. That's the risk you took when you raised your right hand and accepted the job. Same applys to cops.
Just because you ride to work on a expensive red truck with flashing lights you aren't exempt from doing the work when you get there.
QUIKSVT
Well-known member
Francis,
Do you have back ground in firefighting? You are using some terms that I have seen in books before. What do you do for a living? You seem to be pretty hard on all firefighters. How can you judge all of them? Firefighters have a chain of command , maybe their Chief wanted them to wait. So, because the firefighters were following their supervisor's orders you are bashing them.
Do you have back ground in firefighting? You are using some terms that I have seen in books before. What do you do for a living? You seem to be pretty hard on all firefighters. How can you judge all of them? Firefighters have a chain of command , maybe their Chief wanted them to wait. So, because the firefighters were following their supervisor's orders you are bashing them.
Chain of command, glad you brought that back up. Chain of command is exactly what got hundreds of firemen killed on 9/11/01, one stupid political Fire Chief. Damn fool staged manpower under a building that anybody with a brain knew was going to collapse.
The Chief is another of my favorite people, he didn't arrive on scene for over 20 minutes. Every damn overpriced red truck on scene came equipped with a command officer. Those trucks can't leave the apron of the house without an officer aboard, that's policy. PAID command officers are growing hemmorhoids 24/7 on the payroll. Firemen are under the command of the truck officer, not the Chief. Chiefs are responsible for overall command of the truck officers.
These clowns purporting to be firemen have a starting pay of $56,000- a year the day they begin the training academy. They get a raise when they graduate. Do you want to tell me I can't expect a man making over $1000- a week + benefits to be competent in the job? At that pay are they too stupid to do anything without being told? If that's the argument, and I have no doubt the UNION will play that card, they should be getting paid less than half of what they are.
Chain of command is nothing more than an excuse. The facts in this situation remain facts. First trucks in did NOT make the hydrant or hose up. 2nd truck in was a pumper, it should have made the hydrant with a 5" hose and positioned to feed the ladder. That did not happen. Because that did NOT happen, the ladder has no water to cool the roofline and protect. Ergo the ladder is $480,000- of useless shiney trash parked in the lawn.
What I do for a living is collect Social Security Checks and clip cupons. I'm an old fart in case you missed previous announcements. I've been around a hell of a long time, and learned a lot of things along the way.
You're absolutely right, I am hard on this bunch of pretend firefighters. I'm also hard on the so called Public School Teachers and their union and school administrators. These clowns pretending to be firefighters must be getting suggestions on job performence from the teachers union.
The Chief is another of my favorite people, he didn't arrive on scene for over 20 minutes. Every damn overpriced red truck on scene came equipped with a command officer. Those trucks can't leave the apron of the house without an officer aboard, that's policy. PAID command officers are growing hemmorhoids 24/7 on the payroll. Firemen are under the command of the truck officer, not the Chief. Chiefs are responsible for overall command of the truck officers.
These clowns purporting to be firemen have a starting pay of $56,000- a year the day they begin the training academy. They get a raise when they graduate. Do you want to tell me I can't expect a man making over $1000- a week + benefits to be competent in the job? At that pay are they too stupid to do anything without being told? If that's the argument, and I have no doubt the UNION will play that card, they should be getting paid less than half of what they are.
Chain of command is nothing more than an excuse. The facts in this situation remain facts. First trucks in did NOT make the hydrant or hose up. 2nd truck in was a pumper, it should have made the hydrant with a 5" hose and positioned to feed the ladder. That did not happen. Because that did NOT happen, the ladder has no water to cool the roofline and protect. Ergo the ladder is $480,000- of useless shiney trash parked in the lawn.
What I do for a living is collect Social Security Checks and clip cupons. I'm an old fart in case you missed previous announcements. I've been around a hell of a long time, and learned a lot of things along the way.
You're absolutely right, I am hard on this bunch of pretend firefighters. I'm also hard on the so called Public School Teachers and their union and school administrators. These clowns pretending to be firefighters must be getting suggestions on job performence from the teachers union.
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
Well that is the most idiotic answer that I have ever heard. The pay is not a "reward" as you put it. It is a trade off for putting their life on the line. The same with a cop. Their pay is to protect your silly ***. Maybe if you have such "honed" firefighting skills you should go down to the station and see if you can hang with them on a few runs. You probably won't need any training or special gear because you already have the special powers to knock down a fire in a building that has numerous tanks of welding equipment in 10 minutes and you also have the x-ray vision to see thru the walls as to what is going on.What I do for a living is collect Social Security Checks and clip cupons.
Old Fart or just a ****** intellectual (f'in know it all) that sits around and watches tv and reads and all of a sudden knows how to do everyone elses job better than they do? Maybe you can also pilot a 747 because on TV they just pull the wheel back to take off and push it in to decend. Looks pretty simple. I just wouldn't want to ride with you or have you fly over my place.
He appears to. I know I do.
Wrong.
Fires impinging (direct flame) on the outside surface of unprotected pressure storage vessels of Acetylene can be very dangerous. Direct flame exposure on the cylinder wall can cause an explosion either by BLEVE (Boiling
Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion), or by exothermic decomposition. This could cause a catastrophic failure of the vessel releasing the contents into a massive fireball and explosion. The resulting fire and explosion can result in severe equipment damage and personnel injury or death over a large area around the vessel.
Acetylene MSDS (pdf)
Mate you're a damn legend. You need to get out there and show these clowns how's its done!!!!!!!!!!!
You're pretty good at dishing out someone elses life. You a General or something?
Joining the emergency services doesn't mean your life is worth less than a @#&#$*(& blacksmiths. Who gives a rats *** about a widows pension when your kids grow up without a father. If someone was shooting at you I can guarantee I wouldn't be putting my *** on the line for you. It's only you that thinks my life is worth less than yours.
I think your responses show what a fool you are - and that is the polite version.
BTW I have been around for a BLEVE - have you?
FireZapper
Well-known member
I am one of those BRAVE firefighters. I retired from the USAF as a firefighter after 20 years and have been a firefighter for over 25 years.
NO BUILDING IS WORTH MY LIFE!!!!!!
Him telling the first crews what was in the shop kept them alive. Myself as a crewchief I too would not have entered the building.
He could have helped himself by keeping the cylinders in a shed or a flammable locker.
Think of it this way.
Police get a call to a house for a man with a gun. Older man in a house ALONE with 2 gun fully loaded. Do the police go running in or wait him out and try to talk to him?
NO BUILDING IS WORTH MY LIFE!!!!!!
Him telling the first crews what was in the shop kept them alive. Myself as a crewchief I too would not have entered the building.
He could have helped himself by keeping the cylinders in a shed or a flammable locker.
Think of it this way.
Police get a call to a house for a man with a gun. Older man in a house ALONE with 2 gun fully loaded. Do the police go running in or wait him out and try to talk to him?
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banzaitoyota
Well-known member
Those do not appear to be FM Approved.
No one else appears to have them except Griots; or yeah the Chineese exporter:http://jindun.en.alibaba.com/produc...hers/Automatic_Powder_Fire_Extinguishers.html
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