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Three phase panel question / 100 amp circuit/30hp idler

930dreamer

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The single pole? breakers (20 amp) only have a single wire connection, while the larger 15 amp ones have three. What am I missing here? A nice Latte to start the day.:) Disregard the green wire, it has no bearing on this project.
 

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Stuart in MN

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Re: Three phase panel question

I'm not sure what you're asking, but the single pole breakers are for single phase circuits, the three pole breakers are for three phase circuits.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Re: Three phase panel question

What are u going to be using this panel for? I would read up on 3-phase electrical systems before energizing this panel on a 3-phase service(if thats what u will be doing with it) as it seems u arent familiar with 3-phase systems, judging by your OP.

There are many flavors of 3-phase, ea having their pluses and minuses! If youre gonna hook up to a delta service, u better know what a stinger/red/wild leg is before anything gets fried!
 
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930dreamer

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Re: Three phase panel question

What are u going to be using this panel for? I would read up on 3-phase electrical systems before energizing this panel on a 3-phase service(if thats what u will be doing with it) as it seems u arent familiar with 3-phase systems, judging by your OP.

There are many flavors of 3-phase, ea having their pluses and minuses! If youre gonna hook up to a delta service, u better know what a stinger/red/wild leg is before anything gets fried!

I agree this isn't my forte, the three phase panel would be fed from a 30 hp RPC.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Re: Three phase panel question

Output is 240v, I'm only looking for three phase circuits now.

Does your RPC have an output neutral? If u ever decide to run single phase circuits off the RPC keep in mind of whats called the stinger leg, which is usually the b leg but can be any of the 3 legs. The voltage from the stinger leg to neutral is 208v NOT 120v! This ONLY applies to delta connected services such as 240v! Wye is a different 3-phase animal!
 

theoldwizard1

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Re: Three phase panel question

Does your RPC have an output neutral? If u ever decide to run single phase circuits off the RPC keep in mind of whats called the stinger leg, which is usually the b leg but can be any of the 3 legs. The voltage from the stinger leg to neutral is 208v NOT 120v! This ONLY applies to delta connected services such as 240v! Wye is a different 3-phase animal!

Correct !

Some 240V loads are set up for a wide voltage range (200-250V) so this is not a problem.
 

duude

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Just using the 3phase breakers I assume? No reason to pull 120 from the rpc anyway.
Have to ask...what in the hell were you doing with the green wires? :)
 

Norcal

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Re: Three phase panel question

Hope you do not need any of those ITE/Seimens E2,E4,E6* frame breakers, they are expensive....

Green insulated wire should NEVER be used for a current carrying conductor under any circumstances, it is bad form, even for temporary use.

*E2 = 240V, E4 = 480V, E6= 600V.
 
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930dreamer

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Re: Three phase panel question

I got a little side tracked and worked on the 100 amp circuit. The disconnect didn't land where I wanted it to, I need the disconnect out further so I can run conduit to the idler. Never worked with conduit so any help here would be great.:thumbup:
 

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wyliesdiesels

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Re: Three phase panel question

Correct !

Some 240V loads are set up for a wide voltage range (200-250V) so this is not a problem.

A single phase 240v load on a delta connected 3-phase service cares nothing about stinger leg to neutral voltage! After all it would be connected to 2 legs not 1 leg and neutral! Stinger leg to neutral voltage is an issue when hooking up 120v loads! I was merely pointing out the caution about the stinger leg in the rare chance he might decide to hookup 120v loads to his RPC which would be pointless!

The idler motor is Delta connected.

If the motor is anything but 120v, then the stinger leg to neutral voltage isn't an issue! Read above!

And a side point/'3-phase 101 tip'- motors don't care if they get their voltage from a delta or wye connected service(such as 480v wye or 480v delta)! They cant tell what type of service they're connected to! Now, the way the motor is connected @ the lugs is entirely different and can be delta or wye connected depending on application!

Just using the 3phase breakers I assume? No reason to pull 120 from the rpc anyway.
Have to ask...what in the hell were you doing with the green wires? :)

Yeah, it would be pointless to use 120v loads on the RPC but i threw that caution out there in the rare chance that he might!


I got a little side tracked and worked on the 100 amp circuit. The disconnect didn't land where I wanted it to, I need the disconnect out further so I can run conduit to the idler. Never worked with conduit so any help here would be great.:thumbup:

Dont quite understand your question. Do u mean u need it further off the wall or u need to move it to somewhere else?
 
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930dreamer

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Re: Three phase panel question

The disconnect is sitting on the edge of the perlin, I reinstalled a large panel and need them to line up so I can connect them together. I guess the large panel will need to move back.
 

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Norcal

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Re: Three phase panel question

Here is Art. 455 from the 2011 NEC.

I. General
455.1 Scope. This article covers the installation and use of
phase converters.
455.2 Definitions.
Manufactured Phase. The manufactured or derived phase
originates at the phase converter and is not solidly connected
to either of the single-phase input conductors.

Phase Converter. An electrical device that converts singlephase
power to 3-phase electric power.

Informational Note: Phase converters have characteristics
that modify the starting torque and locked-rotor current of
motors served, and consideration is required in selecting a
phase converter for a specific load.

Rotary-Phase Converter. A device that consists of a rotary
transformer and capacitor panel(s) that permits the operation
of 3-phase loads from a single-phase supply.

Static-Phase Converter. A device without rotating parts,
sized for a given 3-phase load to permit operation from a
single-phase supply.

455.3 Other Articles. Phase converters shall comply with
this article and with the applicable provisions of other articles
of this Code.
455.4 Marking. Each phase converter shall be provided
with a permanent nameplate indicating the following:
(1) Manufacturer’s name
(2) Rated input and output voltages
(3) Frequency
(4) Rated single-phase input full-load amperes
(5) Rated minimum and maximum single load in kilovoltamperes
(kVA) or horsepower
(6) Maximum total load in kilovolt-amperes (kVA) or
horsepower
(7) For a rotary-phase converter, 3-phase amperes at full load
455.5 Equipment Grounding Connection. A means for attachment
of an equipment grounding conductor termination in
accordance with 250.8 shall be provided.
455.6 Conductors.
(A) Ampacity. The ampacity of the single-phase supply conductors
shall be determined by 455.6(A)(1) or (A)(2).

Informational Note: Single-phase conductors sized to prevent
a voltage drop not exceeding 3 percent from the source
of supply to the phase converter may help ensure proper
starting and operation of motor loads.

(1) Variable Loads. Where the loads to be supplied are
variable, the conductor ampacity shall not be less than
125 percent of the phase converter nameplate single-phase
input full-load amperes.
(2) Fixed Loads. Where the phase converter supplies specific
fixed loads, and the conductor ampacity is less than
125 percent of the phase converter nameplate single-phase
input full-load amperes, the conductors shall have an ampacity
not less than 250 percent of the sum of the full-load,
3-phase current rating of the motors and other loads served
where the input and output voltages of the phase converter
are identical. Where the input and output voltages of the
phase converter are different, the current as determined by
this section shall be multiplied by the ratio of output to
input voltage.
(B) Manufactured Phase Marking. The manufactured
phase conductors shall be identified in all accessible locations
with a distinctive marking. The marking shall be consistent
throughout the system and premises.

455.7 Overcurrent Protection. The single-phase supply
conductors and phase converter shall be protected from
overcurrent by 455.7(A) or (B). Where the required fuse or
nonadjustable circuit breaker rating or settings of adjustablenonadjustable circuit breaker rating or settings of adjustable
circuit breakers do not correspond to a standard rating or
setting, a higher rating or setting that does not exceed the
next higher standard rating shall be permitted.
(A) Variable Loads. Where the loads to be supplied are
variable, overcurrent protection shall be set at not more than
125 percent of the phase converter nameplate single-phase
input full-load amperes.
(B) Fixed Loads. Where the phase converter supplies specific
fixed loads and the conductors are sized in accordance
with 455.6(A)(2), the conductors shall be protected in accordance
with their ampacity. The overcurrent protection determined
from this section shall not exceed 125 percent of the
phase converter nameplate single-phase input amperes.
455.8 Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided to
disconnect simultaneously all ungrounded single-phase
supply conductors to the phase converter.
(A) Location. The disconnecting means shall be readily
accessible and located in sight from the phase converter.
(B) Type. The disconnecting means shall be a switch rated
in horsepower, a circuit breaker, or a molded-case switch.Where only nonmotor loads are served, an ampere-rated
switch shall be permitted.
(C) Rating. The ampere rating of the disconnecting means
shall not be less than 115 percent of the rated maximum
single-phase input full-load amperes or, for specific fixed
loads, shall be permitted to be selected from 455.8(C)(1) or
(C)(2).
(1) Current Rated Disconnect. The disconnecting means
shall be a circuit breaker or molded-case switch with an
ampere rating not less than 250 percent of the sum of the
following:
(1) Full-load, 3-phase current ratings of the motors
(2) Other loads served
(2) Horsepower Rated Disconnect. The disconnecting
means shall be a switch with a horsepower rating. The
equivalent locked rotor current of the horsepower rating
of the switch shall not be less than 200 percent of the
sum of the following:
(1) Nonmotor loads
(2) The 3-phase, locked-rotor current of the largest motor
as determined from Table 430.251(B)
(3) The full-load current of all other 3-phase motors operating
at the same time
(D) Voltage Ratios. The calculations in 455.8(C) shall apply
directly where the input and output voltages of the phase converter
are identical. Where the input and output voltages of the
phase converter are different, the current shall be multiplied by
the ratio of the output to input voltage.
455.9 Connection of Single-Phase Loads. Where singlephase
loads are connected on the load side of a phase converter,
they shall not be connected to the manufactured phase

455.10 Terminal Housings. A terminal housing in accordance
with the provisions of 430.12 shall be provided on a
phase converter.
II. Specific Provisions Applicable to Different Types of
Phase Converters
455.20 Disconnecting Means. The single-phase disconnecting
means for the input of a static phase converter shall be
permitted to serve as the disconnecting means for the phase
converter and a single load if the load is within sight of the
disconnecting means.
455.21 Start-Up. Power to the utilization equipment shall
not be supplied until the rotary-phase converter has been
started.
455.22 Power Interruption. Utilization equipment supplied
by a rotary-phase converter shall be controlled in such
a manner that power to the equipment will be disconnected
in the event of a power interruption.
Informational Note: Magnetic motor starters, magnetic contactors,
and similar devices, with manual or time delay restarting
for the load, provide restarting after power interruption.
455.23 Capacitors. Capacitors that are not an integral part
of the rotary-phase conversion system but are installed for a
motor load shall be connected to the line side of that motor
overload protective device.

This is just my opinion but for marking the manufactured leg, I prefer to use orange just like what would be used for the high leg of 240V delta.
 
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930dreamer

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Re: Three phase panel question

A little progress this weekend. The main panel is in the bathroom, so I'm trying to move away from that. The shop vertical beams stick out so I had to bump out the pvc.
 

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theoldwizard1

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Re: Three phase panel question

Correct !

Some 240V loads are set up for a wide voltage range (200-250V) so this is not a problem.

A single phase 240v load on a delta connected 3-phase service cares nothing about stinger leg to neutral voltage! After all it would be connected to 2 legs not 1 leg and neutral! Stinger leg to neutral voltage is an issue when hooking up 120v loads!

Again, you are correct !

The point I was trying to make is that you can not get 240V out of a Y configuration.

220px-The_basic_3-phase_configurations.svg.png


Phase to phase will give you 208V in a Y system.
 

Norcal

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Re: Three phase panel question / 100 amp circuit

Since the OP is is using a phase convertor to feed the panel, the manufactured phase cannot be used for single phase loads, read the text of 455.9

455.9 Connection of Single-Phase Loads. Where singlephase
loads are connected on the load side of a phase converter,
they shall not be connected to the manufactured phase

The output will be a nominal 240 volt.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Re: Three phase panel question / 100 amp circuit

Since the OP is is using a phase convertor to feed the panel, the manufactured phase cannot be used for single phase loads, read the text of 455.9

455.9 Connection of Single-Phase Loads. Where singlephase
loads are connected on the load side of a phase converter,
they shall not be connected to the manufactured phase

The output will be a nominal 240 volt.

Thx for the code cite! Will the manufactured phase always be the stinger leg thus mandating this code???
 
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930dreamer

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Re: Three phase panel question / 100 amp circuit

I almost finished the 100 circuit today, still a few thing to do. I did a quick video of the 30 hp idler running, each leg pulls 28 amps. Click on the pic for the video.

 

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Grumpy365

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I know it is in a "rough-in" state, but cut the shafts off that idler motor.

The electrical doesn't scare me, but I see spinning wheels of death, just waiting for me to f****** up and get wound up in it.
 
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930dreamer

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I know it is in a "rough-in" state, but cut the shafts off that idler motor.

The electrical doesn't scare me, but I see spinning wheels of death, just waiting for me to f****** up and get wound up in it.

I'd have Popeye arms after getting through that with a hacksaw. I have to keep the pulley side for starting.:thumbup:
 

madosta

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This is an interesting thread. I like it. Is there a way to start the idler not by hand? Is that what capacitors are for in typical RPCs?
 
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930dreamer

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This is an interesting thread. I like it. Is there a way to start the idler not by hand? Is that what capacitors are for in typical RPCs?

Yes a push button start is buildable, I went with the simple method. The pony motor/engine:evil: I use is a must and requires every bit of it to start.
 
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930dreamer

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Another GJ member came over Saturday and we checked out the inrush amp on the 30hp idler. The Craftsman DMM showed 292 amps, the Fluke? 319 amps. 150 mfd per hp is 4500 mfd, I don't have that many caps.
 

wyliesdiesels

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I don't think so!

Something doesnt make sense as the FLC on a 30-hp motor is 80a so i dont think the in-rush would be that high but maybe im wrong! Is the meter designed to measure in-rush as i know that Fluke had to add special circutry to some of their clamp meters to be able to properly read in-rush current...sounds like some of the meters need calibrating too!
 
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Todd.Brock

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This post is really interesting just to learn about three phase. I didn't know a RPC could self start. I thought that they had to have a pull ripe or pony motor. Interesting!!!
 
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