Three wire sub panel - Detached garage

[wayfast]

Good evening everyone. Looking for some help on how to wire this new Profusion Heater that my wife got me. I've got a 3 wire sub panel in the garage, that is fed off of a 40amp breaker from my main panel in the house. It seems that there are two hot wires and one that is connected to a ground bus bar on the main panel. The sub panel in the detached garage only has one bus bar where grounds and neutrals are connected. I feel like there is supposed to be a separate ground bus, or was this how it was done before the code changed?

I'm wiring the heater with 8-2 wiring. Two hots and a ground. Will there be an issue if i attach the ground to the neutral/ground(?) bus bar on the sub panel?

Sorry if i'm not making any sense. I'm not familiar with all of this. And its hard to find info on the net regarding this.

Thanks,
Josh

Sorry the pics are bad. The batteries are dead in my good camera.

The first pic is the main panel. Circled is the (hidden) ground bus where the third wire is connected to.

The second pic is a closer shot of that. Can't really see anything. I know, it's a mess.

Third pic is the conduit where the three wires exit the panel.

Fourth pic is the sub panel in the garage.

Thanks again. Any help is greatly appreciated.










Edit:
House was built in 1957, garage built in 1985.

 

[pattenp]

That was allowed back when garage was built. The ground will go to the bar with all the other grounds. Put the heater ground with another ground if you have no empty holes. Don't pair it up with a neutral.

 

[mm08822]

The feeder started out ok in the main panel - two hots, one neutral and galvanized conduit as the ground. However, somewhere along the way to the sub-panel, the grc was changed to pvc. This is where the ground was broken and lost.

Technically, the subpanel enclosure has no ground as it is wired currently. (I don't even see a bonding screw.)

To fix this the pvc should be replaced with more galvanized rigid conduit or emt. That will again provide ground continuity to the enclosure. You could even put in a steel junction box at the point of transition to pvc and then run a ground wire in the pvc. Might have to up-size the pvc to fit it.

It may even be easier to remove all of the existing feeder and replace with a 3 wire cable.

And lastly, add a ground bar and separate grounds from neutrals.

If sub panel in a detached building, then you also need 2 ground rods.

 

[pattenp]

He doesn't have to do all of that because the panel is grandfathered under old code. The neutrals and grounds are bonded. One thing I'm not seeing is a grounding electrode conductor that should be going to ground rod(s).

 

[wayfast]

He doesn't have to do all of that because the panel is grandfathered under old code. The neutrals and grounds are bonded. One thing I'm not seeing is a grounding electrode conductor that should be going to ground rod(s).

yeah, i'm not able to find any thing that would be connected to a ground rod.

mm08822, the PVC pipe goes all the way down. if there is no ground how come this tester shows my outlets are wired properly?(both orange lights are on)






if the house and garage are not connected by anything metallic, is a ground rod necessary?

 

[pattenp]

You get a valid ground because the neutral is bonded to ground. Ground rods are for lighting strikes it has nothing to do with equipment ground. You should add 2 rods at the garage.

 

[wayfast]

You get a valid ground because the neutral is bonded to ground. Ground rods are for lighting strikes it has nothing to do with equipment ground. You should add 2 rods at the garage.

would i then need a new sub panel with a separate ground bar?

 

[mm08822]

He doesn't have to do all of that because the panel is grandfathered under old code. The neutrals and grounds are bonded. One thing I'm not seeing is a grounding electrode conductor that should be going to ground rod(s).

I had to re-write my post 2x as my login timed out on me. I my first reply, I also commented that the sub-panel looks way to new to be under a grandfather cause for 3 wire feeds.

OP, when was the sub-panel installed?

 

[wayfast]

I had to re-write my post 2x as my login timed out on me. I my first reply, I also commented that the sub-panel looks way to new to be under a grandfather cause for 3 wire feeds.

OP, when was the sub-panel installed?

when i bought the house in 2011. The old panel didn't have a door on it covering the breakers, the city of Westland didn't like that. I had to replace it in order to pass inspection. So i bought one that was layed out identical to the old one and wired it exactly how the old one was wired.

 

[mm08822]

yeah, i'm not able to find any thing that would be connected to a ground rod.

mm08822, the PVC pipe goes all the way down. if there is no ground how come this tester shows my outlets are wired properly?(both orange lights are on)

As PattenP stated, your recepts are "grounded" b/c of the neutral wire and ground wire connection at the sub panel neutral block.

I was saying your subpanel enclosure is technically not grounded. The neutral block looks to be isolated from the enclose. Maybe I just can't see a bonding strap or bonding screw in the pic. If either is there, then it is grounded.

You may also get the false ground reading for the enclosure since it is mounted directly(?) on brick if there is no enclosure bonding to the neutral bar.
.....






if the house and garage are not connected by anything metallic, is a ground rod necessary?Yes

.....

 

[wayfast]

I read this and it concerned me about separating them http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1782943&postcount=7

 

[mm08822]

when i bought the house in 2011. The old panel didn't have a door on it covering the breakers, the city of Westland didn't like that. I had to replace it in order to pass inspection. So i bought one that was layed out identical to the old one and wired it exactly how the old one was wired.

Well if the new subpanel passed in 2011 wired as your pics show now, then I guess they let you slide with grandfathering. Good for you.

So then :
is the neutral bonded to the enclosure?
you need the neutral marked with white tape.

 

[mm08822]

I read this and it concerned me about separating them http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1782943&postcount=7

You would only separate them if you also provided a grounding conductor back to the main panel.

 

[wayfast]

Well if the new subpanel passed in 2011 wired as your pics show now, then I guess they let you slide with grandfathering. Good for you.

So then :
is the neutral bonded to the enclosure?
you need the neutral marked with white tape.

No it's not. It's raised on plastic risers. with no screw connecting the bar and the enclosure.

You would only separate them if you also provided a grounding conductor back to the main panel.

essentially turning the 3 wire into 4?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

He doesn't have to do all of that because the panel is grandfathered under old code. The neutrals and grounds are bonded. One thing I'm not seeing is a grounding electrode conductor that should be going to ground rod(s).

You get a valid ground because the neutral is bonded to ground. Ground rods are for lighting strikes it has nothing to do with equipment ground. You should add 2 rods at the garage.

Like mm, Im not seeing a bonding strap or green screw in the subpanel neutral bar. Do u see one?

would i then need a new sub panel with a separate ground bar?

Not new just added ground bar. However there are issues with doing that. Read on below.

when i bought the house in 2011. The old panel didn't have a door on it covering the breakers, the city of Westland didn't like that. I had to replace it in order to pass inspection. So i bought one that was layed out identical to the old one and wired it exactly how the old one was wired.

Technically, since u changed the panel, it shouldve been wired to the new code standard which is a 4-wire feeder. Pre2008 code allowed 3-wire feeds to detached structures. Since this was wired in 2011 your AHJ may have adopted the 2008 NEC by then, and 4-wire wiring schemes should've been done.

However, the hard part is that u only have a 3-wire feeder.

At the bare minimum u should make sure neutral bar is bonded to enclosure and u need to add 2 ground rods.

 

[wayfast]

Well this heater just got a lot more expensive. I feel like i need to get an electrician out here now.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well this heater just got a lot more expensive. I feel like i need to get an electrician out here now.

The EGC for the heater circuit can go to the neutral bar AFTER u bond it to the enclosure.

2 other things i noticed is u have a double tapped breaker in the upper right. Unless the breaker lug is rates for 2 conductors, u need to make a pigtail.

Also the main breaker is backfed but i dont see a hold down screw.

 

[mm08822]

Bonding the neutral bar can be done with adding a screw through the neutral bar (look for a thru-hole in the neutral bar) and drill/tap a hole behind the neutral bar hole into the enclosure back if you don't already have a tapped hole there now. Add the screw and you are done. (paint it green if you want.)
Or take a piece of copper with a ring or spade connector and attach to the enclose with a screw and insert the other end into the neutral bar. Tighten down and done.

Then you are left with driving 2 ground rods outside and connecting back to the neutral bar. Not so hard.

If the energized panel bothers you while doing this, then shut off power to it in the house main panel.
$50 extra and its all done - almost 100% up to present day code but way safer than what you have now - new heater or not.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Im guessing the inspector was either not up to speed on 2008 code changes or was a general and not electrical specific.

Theres 4 violations off the bat with just looking at the pic.

 

[wayfast]

Bonding the neutral bar can be done with adding a screw through the neutral bar (look for a thru-hole in the neutral bar) and drill/tap a hole behind the neutral bar hole into the enclosure back. Add the screw and you are done. (paint it green if you want.)
Or take a piece of copper with a ring or spade connector and attach to the enclose with a screw and insert the other end into the neutral bar. Tighten down and done.

Then you are left with driving 2 ground rods outside and connecting back to the neutral bar. Not so hard.

If the energized panel bothers you while doing this, then shut off power to it in the house main panel.
$50 extra and its all done - almost 100% up to present day code but way safer than what you have now - new heater or not.

So bond the neutral bar, install two ground rods (at least 6 ft apart? one connected to the other, connected back to the neutral bar with #6 wire?), get the hold down screw kit, and fix the double tapped breaker, and it should be ok?

Im guessing the inspector was either not up to speed on 2008 code changes or was a general and not electrical specific.

Theres 4 violations off the bat with just looking at the pic.

he didn't even look in the enclosure, just looked to see if it had a door on it.

 

[brewchief]

Theres 4 violations off the bat with just looking at the pic.

I see no hold down on backfed main
No marking on neutral
No bonding of neutral/ground
No ground rods
Multiple wire under breaker
What looks like 14 wire to a 20 amp breaker(possibile it's older 12 gauge with the white jacket but it looks thin at the bottom breaker

Did I miss any?

 

[mm08822]

Since he didn't open the enclosure, I'll assume his laziness is how the violations passed.

You have breaker space - add a breaker of the correct size and move one of the doubled-up wires to it.
You might also want to check the wire size in other places on all circuits to be sure the wire size didn't get reduced elsewhere.

 

[wayfast]

If i were to get an electrician out here for a quote, and he see all these violations, could they force me to fix it? Like what if i can afford to fix it right away, could they do anything that would negatively impact me in any way?

I feel like i'm in over my head, and i want this done right. Anyone have an idea of what someone might charge me to get this up to code?

Thanks Guys,
Josh

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I see no hold down on backfed main
No marking on neutral
No bonding of neutral/ground
No ground rods
Multiple wire under breaker
What looks like 14 wire to a 20 amp breaker(possibile it's older 12 gauge with the white jacket but it looks thin at the bottom breaker

Did I miss any?

yeah im sure i missed a few. was looking at it on my phone.

Hard to catch it all through a pic and or without being there in person.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If i were to get an electrician out here for a quote, and he see all these violations, could they force me to fix it? Like what if i can afford to fix it right away, could they do anything that would negatively impact me in any way?

I feel like i'm in over my head, and i want this done right. Anyone have an idea of what someone might charge me to get this up to code?

Thanks Guys,
Josh

Electrician cant force u to do anything.

The entity u have to worry about is the AHJ but im sure they have bigger fish to fry and judging how they missed it all i doubt theyll care.

Charges vary widely coast to coast.

Thats a few hours of work and maybe $75 in materials with markup.

This isnt that hard of work. If u feel up to it, u really could do it all yourself.

And as MM said, u could shut off the power if it makes u feel better.

 

[wayfast]

Electrician cant force u to do anything.

The entity u have to worry about is the AHJ but im sure they have bigger fish to fry and judging how they missed it all i doubt theyll care.

Charges vary widely coast to coast.

Thats a few hours of work and maybe $75 in materials with markup.

This isnt that hard of work. If u feel up to it, u really could do it all yourself.

And as MM said, u could shut off the power if it makes u feel better.

I thought if any changes are made it has to be brought up to code? meaning running the 4 wires from the house etc. i figured that would be the priciest part. Just the permits from the city will be stupidly expensive. i'll call someone tomorrow and see when i can get someone out here.

Thanks again guys

 

[brownbagg]

H One thing I'm not seeing is a grounding electrode conductor that should be going to ground rod(s).

thats not done on a sub panel

 

[Dagny]

Don't do this but draw a little diagram of a 3 wire feed and pretend the neutral wire gets unhooked. All the metal things in your garage will become energized. As any 120 volt loads can't get back to the main panel they will try to run in series with all the metal things in you garage. the things mentioned are code violations but not as serious as the grounded neutrals.

 

[mm08822]

thats not done on a sub panel

This is a detached garage so it is needed.

 

[wayfast]

i've got a guy coming tomorrow at 10am.... he didn't seem very intelligent on the phone. We'll see what he has to say.

 

[mm08822]

Don't do this but draw a little diagram of a 3 wire feed and pretend the neutral wire gets unhooked. All the metal things in your garage will become energized. As any 120 volt loads can't get back to the main panel they will try to run in series with all the metal things in you garage. the things mentioned are code violations but not as serious as the grounded neutrals.

You are right and that is why the code changed.

The OP can live with this fact due to being apparently grandfathered into the older code reqs or he could change out the feeder if he feels the need, has the time and cash.

I personally would get rid of all the other violations, make sure all connections are properly made between panels and leave it as a 3 wire sub.

 

[mm08822]

i've got a guy coming tomorrow at 10am.... he didn't seem very intelligent on the phone. We'll see what he has to say.

Well you know the punchlist/problems. Let him tell you what he finds (on his own) and you can judge his knowledge and whether or not you're getting a snow job or he's being fair in terms of $.

Some guys are super honest while some like to play the fear factor game. If he tells you the place is going to burn to the ground or you'll get electrocuted standing within 5' of the panel a week from now - send him packing. Call in the next guy.

 

[Norcal]

The main breaker is a factory installed or a SQ D accessory nothing wrong with it, it's not backfed because of being a main & cannot be used as a branch device.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I thought if any changes are made it has to be brought up to code? meaning running the 4 wires from the house etc. i figured that would be the priciest part. Just the permits from the city will be stupidly expensive. i'll call someone tomorrow and see when i can get someone out here.

Thanks again guys

That is correct. So the feeder would need to be upgraded.

However, Your AHJ might not have been on 2008 code cycle in 2011 when u did this. As MM said, the easiest thing u can do is take care of the code violations.

If u want to upgrade the feeder, u most likely need to pull the old wire out and then pull it back in with a green colored EGC/ground.

thats not done on a sub panel

On a detached structure panel it IS done.

The main breaker is a factory installed or a SQ D accessory nothing wrong with it, it's not backfed because of being a main & cannot be used as a branch device.

Youre looking at the wrong pic.

The SQ D is the main.

The sub(last pic) is an Eaton BR that does have a backfed main as its an MLO panel with the lugs at the top.

 

[wayfast]

That is correct. So the feeder would need to be upgraded.

However, Your AHJ might not have been on 2008 code cycle in 2011 when u did this. As MM said, the easiest thing u can do is take care of the code violations.

If u want to upgrade the feeder, u most likely need to pull the old wire out and then pull it back in with a green colored EGC/ground.



On a detached structure panel it IS done.



Youre looking at the wrong pic.

The SQ D is the main.

The sub(last pic) is an Eaton BR that does have a backfed main as its an MLO panel with the lugs at the top.

Do I even need the 40 amp breaker in the sub panel when I have the 40amp in the main panel? I see now this is how it should be wired. Like I said, I just set it up like the previous one, thinking it was done right.


Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk

 

[wayfast]

so i canceled the appointment with the electrician. I was just looking for someone to make it work with what i have, but in reality i know a lot needs to be changed.(to meet code) So im thinking of running 6-3 wire so i can up the breaker size to 50 amps. putting in the two grounding rods, and most likely completely re-wiring the garage. because there's lots of mix-matched wiring.

is this 6-3 wire ok if it's feeding through a conduit the whole way, or do i need to use the feeder wire? would this be ok for my grounding wire?

Also, i was thinking about feeding the new wires. would it be a good idea to somehow attach them to the old wires in the house. Then pull them through from the garage?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[mm08822]

The main breaker is a factory installed or a SQ D accessory nothing wrong with it, it's not backfed because of being a main & cannot be used as a branch device.

It is a main lug panel with a back fed 2P 40A.

 

[mm08822]

Do I even need the 40 amp breaker in the sub panel when I have the 40amp in the main panel? I see now this is how it should be wired. Like I said, I just set it up like the previous one, thinking it was done right.


Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk

You need a Main Disconnect and marked as such when you exceed 6 separate breakers (6 throws of the hand) for a service in a seperate building(as is your panel in the detached garage.) This is an 8 space panel and you could have all 8 spaces using single pole cb's.

If you had (as an example) 2 single pole cb's and 3 2pole cb's you would be ok (5 throws of the hand.)
An inspector may or may not bust you on that, depending on whether he uses the potential to exceed 6 or uses the rationale that at this point in time there are only 2 single pole cb's and it currently is compliant. (And this assumes you would doing anything that requires an inspector coming out anyway.)

For now, I would leave it as is. You are not out of space and are compliant from that perspective.

 

[pattenp]

is this 6-3 wire ok if it's feeding through a conduit the whole way, or do i need to use the feeder wire? would this be ok for my grounding wire?

Thanks

The UF you linked to is okay, but the first NM is not. You need to be sure to use wire that is rated for wet locations. Conduit outside and or under ground is considered a wet location. A cheaper wire to use than UF is individual conductors of THHN/THWN. What is the size of the conduit? That will determine what the max size wire you can use. Use a bare solid #6 for the electrode conductor.

Yes, use the old wire as a pull for the new wire.

Edit: It appears the conduit is 3/4", if that's correct, then four #6 THHN/THWN will be the max size and number.


*

 

[mm08822]

so i canceled the appointment with the electrician. I was just looking for someone to make it work with what i have, but in reality i know a lot needs to be changed.(to meet code) So im thinking of running 6-3 wire so i can up the breaker size to 50 amps. putting in the two grounding rods, and most likely completely re-wiring the garage. because there's lots of mix-matched wiring.

is this 6-3 wire ok if it's feeding through a conduit the whole way, or do i need to use the feeder wire? would this be ok for my grounding wire?

Also, i was thinking about feeding the new wires. would it be a good idea to somehow attach them to the old wires in the house. Then pull them through from the garage?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

You can not use NM-B cable in underground conduits(wet location.) So it would need to be thwn conductors in the underground conduit.

Secondly pulling nm-b in conduit ain't fun and yours is probably too small anyway for 6-3. Do yourself a favor and forget about ever pulling nm-b in conduit. I don't know why people set themselves up for a tug of war. Pulling individual conductors in conduit is far easier.

I suggest you consider adding a junction box where the rigid conduit changes to pvc. From this box you can add the grounding conductor into the pvc. Terminate the ground wire in the junction box and land it in the garage panel on a new ground bar. Move existing grounds from neutral block to this.
This would involve pulling out the underground conductors, cutting/modifying the pvc and pulling old back in with the new ground wire. Depending on what you are starting with this could be easy or a big PITA.

Post some pics of the entire conduit run from main panel to sub panel.

Keeping it a 3-wire feed is still not out of the question IF you make the modifications listed earlier. Pulling in a new feed in existing underground conduits (that you don't how they were installed) could make for a bigger project than you want.
Remember this all started with simply adding a heater.