Thru the Wall AC unit

[fortee9er]

I have a 30x23x9 3 car detached garage that is not insulated, at the moment. I am looking for a "thru the wall" or window unit of about 18k BTUs to cool the space. I have 240v already wired in for my compressor and my MIG welder.
I am in Houston, TX where we have very high humidity and very high temperatures for several months of the year. I am looking for brand recommendations. There are many to choose from but I don't know which ones are reliable.
Thanks in Advance

 

[Notgrownup]

I have a Blueridge PTAC from Alpine Air , I believe it's a 9000 Btu for my 12x24 sunroom and it dies well".very fast to cool...12 seer I believe. $729 delivered.

 

[theoldwizard1]

A mini-split system, although more costly, will be MUCH more efficient. Depending on the number of hours per year you run it, to could pay back in less than 5 years.

 

[DieselPills]

A mini-split system, although more costly, will be MUCH more efficient. Depending on the number of hours per year you run it, to could pay back in less than 5 years.

BS. A mini split is not much more efficient than a good window/through the wall unit. An 18,000 BTU through the wall unit should cost less than $500. There is unlikely to be much of an energy savings, but even if there was, it would take a long, long time to recover the cost of a mini split vs a $500 unit.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

BS. A mini split is not much more efficient than a good window/through the wall unit. An 18,000 BTU through the wall unit should cost less than $500. There is unlikely to be much of an energy savings, but even if there was, it would take a long, long time to recover the cost of a mini split vs a $500 unit.

A window unit will never touch the efficiency of even a cheap inverter minisplit.

Tommy

 

[jcthorne]

You will be hard pressed to have an 18k window unit cool a 30 x 23 x 9 uninsulated garage in Houston. My attached and insulated 24 x 40 garage with a two ton central air unit can barely hold 78 deg on a 100 deg Houston day IF I turn it on early in the morning and bring the temp down ahead of time. If I turn it on mid day, it will never drop the temp below 85 until sunset.

I think you will need a bit more or VERY good insulation and sealed doors.

Its hard to justify the cost of high quality insulation and doors on a garage that is only air conditioned a few days a year. More AC capacity is cheaper.....

 

[fortee9er]

The plan is to get the ac in before doing the insulation and sealing. I am going to stick with a a wall unit for simplicity of installation hence cost.
What I need to know which brand(s) is going to be reliable over the long haul. LG, Friedrich, Samsung...etc. Efficiency and quietness would be a plus.
Thanks

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Freidrichs are pretty much all we use in the schools.

Tommy

 

[DieselPills]

A window unit will never touch the efficiency of even a cheap inverter minisplit.

Tommy

A mini split will be slightly more efficient. They will also cost AT LEAST $1500 more or four times as much. You might save 2 cents per running hour, if you're lucky. Not worth the savings.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

BS. A mini split is not much more efficient than a good window/through the wall unit. An 18,000 BTU through the wall unit should cost less than $500. There is unlikely to be much of an energy savings, but even if there was, it would take a long, long time to recover the cost of a mini split vs a $500 unit.

I can get an 18,000btu mini split with 2 heads for around $1000.00,I can mount the heads in differant areas in the garage to cool it much better than a glorified window ac.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

How far is the air coming out of one of those ptec units going to force the air across a 30' room? Not very far,its a glorified window ac is all it is.

 

[Notgrownup]

With 2 ceiling fans my 12x24 is cool in 10 minutes although 8' ceilings with. 9000 btu...not really apples to apples...just giving my results...it heats really good as well.. 12 seer ain't bad and the whole kit for $729

 

[shade]

18k through the wall unit
fully insulated garage and garage door.
keeps my AZ garage 79* even when its 115 out.

 

[DieselPills]

How far is the air coming out of one of those ptec units going to force the air across a 30' room? Not very far,its a glorified window ac is all it is.

I have a 24,000 BTU through wall/window unit at one end of an 11 foot wide, 84 foot long room. It's very cold on the other end of the room.

Honestly I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think you have very much HVAC experience...and I'm not sure what you are trying to argue about.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

A mini split will be slightly more efficient. They will also cost AT LEAST $1500 more or four times as much. You might save 2 cents per running hour, if you're lucky. Not worth the savings.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Tommy

 

[DieselPills]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Tommy

Maybe you could make your post more useful by providing some actual numbers? Do you know them?? What is the exact running cost of an 18k BTU mini split, do you know?

Although, the OP already said he didn't want a mini split, due to absurd cost, so how 'bout we just drop it and stay on topic?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Yes I do. I have 2 18k mini splits in my house and on average they use less electrcity together than my old single 24k window unit did.

Diesel, it's cool. I wasn't looking for a fight.

Tommy

 

[DieselPills]

Yes I do. I have 2 18k mini splits in my house and on average they use less electrcity together than my old single 24k window unit did.

And how much electricity is that? We speak WATTS here on the forum.

And it's not fair comparing to an OLD unit. OLD window units are inefficient. Brand new ones are not.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I have a 24,000 BTU through wall/window unit at one end of an 11 foot wide, 84 foot long room. It's very cold on the other end of the room.

Honestly I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think you have very much HVAC experience...and I'm not sure what you are trying to argue about.

Thats funny,Im sitting in a motel right now with a ptec unit running,The room is no where near 84' long and Ive had the unit set on 70 with the fan set on constant since Ive been here the last couple days to keep the room cool.
I dont feel the air moving roughly 30' across the room,must be one hell of a ptec youre using.
As far as experiance I started out doing electrical work around 1972,got into the plumbing and refrigeration side in the late 70s.
Took a break from 82-91 while I was in the Army,And went right back into the trades after that.
I ran my own plumbing/mechanical shops from 1996-2010 till I retired,I still own a plumbing/boiler contracting co that was started in 1920.
Im a licensed master plumber in several cities in the state of ne and the state of iowa.
I also hold still hold an electrical contractors license that reciprocates with several states in the midwest.
So I guess I know a little bit anyway.

So whats your vast wealth of experiance that you draw upon?
Just for shits/grins heres a picture of 1 of the air handlers being lowered into the basement on the last big job my shop did before I went into semi retirement.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

And how much electricity is that? We speak WATTS here on the forum.

And it's not fair comparing to an OLD unit. OLD window units are inefficient. Brand new ones are not.

They still are no where near as efficient as a mini split.

 

[DieselPills]

They still are no where near as efficient as a mini split.

And you still can't post a single number. Do the math and you realize saving a few cents is not worth spending an extra thousand dollars or more.

Again, we're off topic. The OP already said he didn't want a mini split. And whatever cheap *** broken down PTAC (it's PTAC, BTW, not PTEC Mr. Expert) you have in your hotel room is not really relevant to this post, this post is not in any way about PTACs. It's about through wall air conditioner units. a PTAC also supplies heat.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

And you still can't post a single number. Do the math and you realize saving a few cents is not worth spending an extra thousand dollars or more.

Again, we're off topic. The OP already said he didn't want a mini split. And whatever cheap *** broken down PTAC (it's PTAC, BTW, not PTEC Mr. Expert) you have in your hotel room is not really relevant to this post, this post is not in any way about PTACs. It's about through wall air conditioner units. a PTAC also supplies heat.

You know what Im talking about chief.
What is the biggest singlr thing that makes central air more efficient than a window ac or a through the wall unit?
Its the ability to move air to differant areas of a room or house more efficiently right?
Your window ac or through the wall unit will push the air lets say 7-10' in front of it on a good day.
A mini split can have the remote heads mounted just about anyplace depending on the length of the lineset connected to it,and since there is a blower built into each head you wont be trying to force the air across your 10x80' or what ever dimensions you gave room.
That makes it more efficient at cooling the area right?
Lets say you have the same 10x80' room fed from a forced air system with central air.
Lets say you only have 1 vent in the end of the room to cool it,do you think it would cool the room more efficiently if you added a 2nd vent to the opposite end of the room?
I dont know about anybody else,But Im really starting to think youre the one with no real world experiance in hvac work.

 

[DieselPills]

That makes it more efficient at cooling the area right?

No, not really. All you need is a very small circulation fan that uses less than 60 watts. Not going to effect your efficiency enough to justify spending an extra THOUSAND dollars or more. There is absolutely no need for multiple cooling heads in a large open space such as a garage or workshop. If we were talking about a multi zoned house it might make a little more sense, but we're not.

Also the great thing about window air conditioners is if you need cooling in two different places, you simply buy two separate air conditioners.

And as I already pointed out, my through the wall unit has NO PROBLEM cooling a room that is 84 feet long. There are no additional fans. The wireless thermostat that came with it is mounted on the far wall. The entire length stays cool and even. And there is no insulation.

Again, you're talking about a problem the OP does not have. Please stay on topic. The OP asked about a space that is 30x23. A single window unit will have NO PROBLEM cooling that space.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

And how much electricity is that? We speak WATTS here on the forum.

And it's not fair comparing to an OLD unit. OLD window units are inefficient. Brand new ones are not.

Geeze. Let it go.

You keep saying to get back to the topic, but you keep extending this conversation. When I said "old" it was not meant to indicate age. The window unit the mini split replaced was a 4 year old energy star rated 12 EER unit. Maybe I should have said "previous window unit".

I think we're also talking about 2 different things. You brought up overall cost effectiveness. I was specifically speaking about the efficiency of the units themselves.
There is no arguing a 25+ EER unit is more efficient than a 12 EER unit. I will not argue whether it's cost effective or not. That 's a personal choice that has to be made by the buyer.


Can I give you concrete kilowatt numbers from my bill? No. I don't have them anymore. I only compared the bills between the first year I ran the mini split and the prior year when I ran the window unit. All I know is there was very little not much difference from the winter electrical bill when I ran the mini split for pretty much the entire cooling season as compared to the very big difference between winter and summer bills with the window unit, which was only run on extremely hot days. The window unit was 12 EER, about as good as you're gonna get. Inverter mini splits are 25+ EER. That's all the "numbers" I need.

Like I said, I'm not arguing, just posting my experiences.






Tommy

 

[DieselPills]

Like I said, I'm not arguing, just posting my experiences.

Unfortunately your experiences don't mean squat without numbers to back them up. What you said was, in effect, "you should spend an extra thousand dollars cause when I did my electric bill went down". You may as well have said "use a window fan it will be cheaper".

The fact remains, watt for watt, it is not much cheaper to run a mini split vs a window unit. On top of that, they are SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive. They rarely make financial sense. The actual difference in running wattage consumed is very little, and you don't even know what that is! It's literally a savings of about a cent per hour. (or less!)

People who think mini splits are some magical energy saving device that cost almost nothing to run are absolutely clueless. Modern window units are very efficient, they work almost exactly the same as a mini split.

 

[DieselPills]

Since nobody else could bother I'll actually post some real numbers. I'm betting most people here don't know what an EER is.

18,000 BTU mini split:
http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/ymgi/energy-star-1.5-ton-ductless-split.php
Cooling rated consumption:
1532 watts

http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/thermocore-t121s-h218.php
Input Power: 1400w (cooling)

18,000 BTU window air conditioner:
http://www.abt.com/product/99455/GE-18-000-BTU-11.8-EER-230V-Window-Air-Conditioner-AEM18DV.html
Cooling watts: 1510/1470

As you can see, they both have almost EXACTLY THE SAME power consumption!

If anybody wants to argue with me please post some actual numbers instead of BS.

 

[justinjoyal]

The thing is, the mini-split is inverter, the window unit is not.

So on top of being more efficient, being a heat pump and not looking like **** in your window, the mini-split will throttle down to whatever capacity it needs, thus consuming much less electrical current.

A mini-split is more expensive, it will take a long time to recover the cost, but it is much better than a cheap window unit or PTAC.

That being said, OP doesnt want a mini-split, so the deal is sealed.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Unfortunately your experiences don't mean squat without numbers to back them up. What you said was, in effect, "you should spend an extra thousand dollars cause when I did my electric bill went down". You may as well have said "use a window fan it will be cheaper".

The fact remains, watt for watt, it is not much cheaper to run a mini split vs a window unit. On top of that, they are SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive. They rarely make financial sense. The actual difference in running wattage consumed is very little, and you don't even know what that is! It's literally a savings of about a cent per hour. (or less!)

People who think mini splits are some magical energy saving device that cost almost nothing to run are absolutely clueless. Modern window units are very efficient, they work almost exactly the same as a mini split.

Since nobody else could bother I'll actually post some real numbers. I'm betting most people here don't know what an EER is.

18,000 BTU mini split:
http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/ymgi/energy-star-1.5-ton-ductless-split.php
Cooling rated consumption:
1532 watts

http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/thermocore-t121s-h218.php
Input Power: 1400w (cooling)

18,000 BTU window air conditioner:
http://www.abt.com/product/99455/GE-18-000-BTU-11.8-EER-230V-Window-Air-Conditioner-AEM18DV.html
Cooling watts: 1510/1470

As you can see, they both have almost EXACTLY THE SAME power consumption!

If anybody wants to argue with me please post some actual numbers instead of BS.

Dood, give it up. I NEVER said "Spend the extra money because your electrical bill will go down". I said I had legitimate energy use reduction and as you pointed out, I didn't have "numbers" to post, but none the lees it was a real reduction in usage.

My one and only point (which you STILL can't seem to grasp) is that a mini split is more EFFICIENT, not necessarily more COST EFFECTIVE at initial purchase.

Your numbers are also not apples to apples. You are comparing SEER to EER which are two incomparable rating systems and don't seem to really understand how the units function. The window unit you linked to uses 1510W ALL THE TIME. The inverter driven mini split only uses 1530W at FULL LOAD. The inverter drive starts the compressor up very slowly, which drastically reduces inrush current and it also slows the compressor and outdoor fan to reduce capacity as the load goes down, up to and beyond 70%. Do the math on that and you get about 500W, 1/3 the wattage of the window unit...

I have a real world, personal reduction in energy usage & over 35 years experience in the industry. You have internet notes. Who's the BSer??

I know the OP doesn't want a mini split. I was done four posts ago. You really need to just let it go.

Tommy

 

[theoldwizard1]

BS. A mini split is not much more efficient than a good window/through the wall unit. An 18,000 BTU through the wall unit should cost less than $500. There is unlikely to be much of an energy savings, ...

Got some data to back up that claim ?

... it would take a long, long time to recover the cost of a mini split vs a $500 unit.

Which is why I said

Depending on the number of hours per year you run it, to could pay back in less than 5 years.

If you live in the south and run it 1,000-2,000 hours per year, I stand behind my statement.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The plan is to get the ac in before doing the insulation and sealing. I am going to stick with a a wall unit for simplicity of installation hence cost.

Cooling a 30 x 23 x 9 in Houston, I hope you have a place to install a second one ! Even after insulation, I think you are going to need it if you want to get the temp down below 80 on the hottest days of the year.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I can get an 18,000btu mini split with 2 heads for around $1000.00,I can mount the heads in differant areas in the garage to cool it much better than a glorified window ac.

2 heads is an EXCELLENT solution for that size of a space.

 

[dsimatt]

I had a 1050sgft upper APT with no shade that had a wall unit to cool the entire place with and my experience with that is if you wanted to work in your shop today you'd have to start it yesterday and run it all day to hopefully bring down the heat or even hold it steady. You could get away with it but i'd put it right by where you'd be working and hope it cools the area enough to be comfortable.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Since nobody else could bother I'll actually post some real numbers. I'm betting most people here don't know what an EER is.

18,000 BTU mini split:
http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/ymgi/energy-star-1.5-ton-ductless-split.php
Cooling rated consumption:
1532 watts

http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/thermocore-t121s-h218.php
Input Power: 1400w (cooling)

18,000 BTU window air conditioner:
http://www.abt.com/product/99455/GE-18-000-BTU-11.8-EER-230V-Window-Air-Conditioner-AEM18DV.html
Cooling watts: 1510/1470

As you can see, they both have almost EXACTLY THE SAME power consumption!

If anybody wants to argue with me please post some actual numbers instead of BS.

Get an actual comparison of them cooling the same area .

 

[fortee9er]

OK guys enough with the debate over window unit/thru the wall vs mini split. I was pricing Friedrich 18k and 24k thru the wall units, on the internet, and found that they were expensive (over $1k). Then I looked at eBay and found some vendors offering Friederich mini split units for a comparable price. I am going to rethink my choice of units.
In the mean time I have a couple of related questions:
My detached garage doors faces south, that is the 30 ft length. The side walls face east and west, 23 ft width. I can install the unit on either the north facing wall or the east facing wall. What is the optimum position, for the air to flow? east -west long 30ft or north-south short 23 ft? BTW, There are no windows.
I am using foam sealer on the perimeter of where the studs meet the siding to keep out insects. The foam sealer in a can is fairly expensive on a per can basis. Can I get the foam sealer in larger quantities with an applicator for a LOWER price?
Thanks for the advice














r

 

[theoldwizard1]

The thing is, the mini-split is inverter, the window unit is not.

So on top of being more efficient, being a heat pump ...

FYI, they do make A/C only mini-splits. A few bucks cheaper than the heat pump versions.

 

[justinjoyal]

FYI, they do make A/C only mini-splits. A few bucks cheaper than the heat pump versions.

Yeah I know, I sell 'em.

However the very small price difference makes the heat pump a better choice for a lot of people.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

OK guys enough with the debate over window unit/thru the wall vs mini split. I was pricing Friedrich 18k and 24k thru the wall units, on the internet, and found that they were expensive (over $1k). Then I looked at eBay and found some vendors offering Friederich mini split units for a comparable price. I am going to rethink my choice of units.
In the mean time I have a couple of related questions:
My detached garage doors faces south, that is the 30 ft length. The side walls face east and west, 23 ft width. I can install the unit on either the north facing wall or the east facing wall. What is the optimum position, for the air to flow? east -west long 30ft or north-south short 23 ft? BTW, There are no windows.
I am using foam sealer on the perimeter of where the studs meet the siding to keep out insects. The foam sealer in a can is fairly expensive on a per can basis. Can I get the foam sealer in larger quantities with an applicator for a LOWER price?
Thanks for the advice.

For that particular footprint, if there's a mini split unit in your target price range with dual indoor heads, I'd go that route just for airflow coverage purposes.

Tommy

 

[Falcon67]

You can stick any unit through the wall with a little work.

This is not a "thru the wall unit"

Nor is this one

Here's a 24K unit with a slid out chassis - $600
http://www.homedepot.com/p/LG-Elect...ir-Conditioner-with-Remote-LW2515ER/205649866

My old shop had a 12K unit with a slide out, that was an easy job.

 

[junkyardwarrior]

Watching this, as my 30x40 has no a/c. The older I get the less I can take of the Arkansas heat; and I work outside every day, all day long.

My dad has a big window unit he said he'd give me, I just need to go get it and load it. I have no windows in the shop so I'll have to make one. THAT I am NOT looking forward to.

Right now it's only 91 and 66% RH. Nice out. End of the week it's supposed to be triple digits. With all the rain we've had (every day for the last week), it's going to be "nice"....

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

OK guys enough with the debate over window unit/thru the wall vs mini split. I was pricing Friedrich 18k and 24k thru the wall units, on the internet, and found that they were expensive (over $1k). Then I looked at eBay and found some vendors offering Friederich mini split units for a comparable price. I am going to rethink my choice of units.
In the mean time I have a couple of related questions:
My detached garage doors faces south, that is the 30 ft length. The side walls face east and west, 23 ft width. I can install the unit on either the north facing wall or the east facing wall. What is the optimum position, for the air to flow? east -west long 30ft or north-south short 23 ft? BTW, There are no windows.
I am using foam sealer on the perimeter of where the studs meet the siding to keep out insects. The foam sealer in a can is fairly expensive on a per can basis. Can I get the foam sealer in larger quantities with an applicator for a LOWER price?
Thanks for the advice














r

Id mount atleast over your biggest area of heating/cooling loss ,which would be over garsage doors.