Tig help!

[Jrems]

Hey guys just looking for some advice . Im looking to get into tig for light auto fab, mostly aluminum and mild steel and cant figure out which way to go. ive got 30 amp 240v service so it has to be a inverter machine, heres where i'm stuck though, the cheap Chinese machines like ahp get great reviews, but i want something that will last, ive also been looking at the miller syncrowave 210s but at triple the price are they worth it? Meaning are the electronics both the same , has anyone heard about the longevity of these inverter machines, is it unreasonable to think the miller will last 10-15 years thanks

 

[Firstram]

AHP is a great starter machine. It will do everything you want to learn to do. You can always buy a bigger badder machine once you know what you really need.

 

[Jrems]

Waht makes you think a Chinese inverter machine won't last.
Post a link please.

Havent heard anything just figured the reason ahp can sell so cheap is thier using lower components fans, solenoids, ect. I would hope on a higher end machines the internals are better

 

[Wamsutta]

It used to be 20 years ago the inverter machines would last about 3 years and then all of a sudden quit. Maybe they've gotten better since then.

 

[pi_guy]

I bought my first Miller in 1978 it is still functioning in a race shop.
Bought my Dynasty 10 years ago it has many miles on it traveling from race track to race track. Has been flawless often the envy of other welders and has paid for it's self several times over.
But what do I know.....

 

[txvwnut]

My AHP is going on 5 years old and still welds as good as the day I pulled it out of the box. The reason they sell so cheap is very low or no overhead. They don't sell directly off their website they use Amazon to handle sales and shipping and they presale so they can basically build what they need to sell.

 

[Wamsutta]

It's the parts and serviceability is what I'd be concerned about. I'd want to be able to get parts easily. If my welding supply doesn't have the part(s), I'd want to get it online easily. The well known brands like Lincoln, Miller, ESAB, ThermalArc, and Hobart will be the easiest brands to get parts for.

 

[dogdog]

Hey guys just looking for some advice . Im looking to get into tig for light auto fab, mostly aluminum and mild steel and cant figure out which way to go. ive got 30 amp 240v service so it has to be a inverter machine, heres where i'm stuck though, the cheap Chinese machines like ahp get great reviews, but i want something that will last, ive also been looking at the miller syncrowave 210s but at triple the price are they worth it? Meaning are the electronics both the same , has anyone heard about the longevity of these inverter machines, is it unreasonable to think the miller will last 10-15 years thanks

Just stick with a known brand. It's not the COO, but those Generic brand you see on EBay or Amazon etc, are really bad, don't last. When they work they do ok. Mine, just ***** and died.

 

[dr_clyde]

I buy tools and machinery based on quality, dealer support and effectiveness. Cost is in there somewhere, but it’s pretty far down the list.

I don’t like buying things I can’t get parts and service for down the road. I also like nice things. I take pride in owning good quality equipment that makes me money. I support companies that support me.

These cheap inverter machines are meant for the home shop. They are meant for hobby work. They are made as cheaply as possible so guys who have no experience can afford to experiment with one.

Go ahead and get one and see what you can do with one. If you find the limits, sell it and get a nice Miller or Lincoln. If you find it’s all you want/need, then you saved money.

That said, there is no comparison between pro welding equipment and these hobby machines. They are meant for two different markets.

Companies like Miller, Lincoln, Fronius, and ESAB are mature industrial companies, and they make their money selling welders to industry. The hobby market isn’t really their bread and butter.

If cheap inverter welders were as reliable, high quality, and well made as the big boys, you’d see them in industry. I work in manufacturing, and I have NEVER seen any welders by AHP, Everlast, Primeweld or any other inexpensive brand in ANY shop that I do business with. The reality is they are price based, economy machines intended to serve the home shop market. There is a reason a Dynasty costs 5 grand and it isn’t because it’s blue and says “Miller” on the side. It’s the engineering, features, quality components, dealer support, and overall reliability for constant, repetitive use.

When I bought my Miller Invision, a welding engineer from Miller came to my shop with my salesman and showed me all the settings and programs, spent a couple hours helping set up the machine for our application, and then bought me and my guys lunch. That’s why it costs more. That’s why I’m happy to buy Miller welders. When I need help, I can call Miller and they’ll have an answer, or at least give it their best shot.

Somehow I don’t think AHP or Everlast is gonna do that.

 

[Want2race]

I bought a Lincoln because I wanted American made and felt I could trust the brand.

4 days after the warranty ended so did the rotary encoder. $900 for the part to fix it.

I sold that machine 10 months after because I wasn’t willing to take the chance again. In this day and age everything really is throw away. Buying the brand you trust doesn’t mean it won’t break or parts will be affordable. I’m planning to buy the machine with the best support next.

 

[bczygan]

You need MIG.

Bill

 

[dr_clyde]

The only time I called Everlast with a problem, it went like this:
'The shipper crushed my machine'
The president and owner of Everlast got on the phone.
'There's a guy in Florida who doesn't like an all in one 256, and I'm taking it back and giving him a seperate plasma cutter and tig. If you pay shipping, I'll have his shipped directly to you, you put the broken one in the box and you won't have to wait for the backorder part. '

I think it went well except the wife of the guy in Florida bought the 256 a seat on an airplane and it cost me 400 bucks.

No guessing, no speculation, no lunch.

I’m glad it worked out for you. That’s great.

 

[zkling]

In my opinion; buying any inverter system based on 'longevity', especially without factory support is false hope. Like expensive cars, the price of maintenance can be steep.

 

[WittHay]

i know somebody that has has a Miller Dynasty 200 for about 10 years mainly doing stick mobile repair work . They do last but they are classified as a industrial welder.

Lots of price difference between a AHP Tig at $800 and a Dynasty at $5000. Probably best to get something with a easy store warranty like HF and use the heck out of it learning and doing projects. You can always upgrade later if needed.

You cant get away from the fact that some brands are respected in industry all across North America and some arent. Have never seen a engine driven homeowner brand on the back of a welding truck

 

[Nicks garage]

I have just bought a cheap tig welder, I’m still waiting on a few bits before I can try it and need to have a separate plug socket fitted because it’s 250amp, I only paid £466 for it delivered and went for a cheap one to learn because it won’t be used much and at that price if it lasts a couple of years I’m ok with it and can buy another

 

[matt_i]

HGR Surplus has 3pc Sync 250 DX of about 15yo vintage sitting on their floor for $1500.

They are missing the torch & footpedals, which lets just say $500 to come up with replacements. If it doesn't work you take the machine back inside of 30 days.

Vs ~3000. for a new Sync 210 mig/tig package machine. Or $1000 for a cheapo machine.

That 250DX is watercooled and will last a lifetime in a home shop. Its a heavy transformer machine but that also says to me its reliable. Its also going to need more than a 30A service but I've never tripped the breaker on mine at 60A.

 

[dnschmidt]

I absolutely guarantee you that five Ahp's will last longer than 1 Miller. I've got an Ahp and its fine. If it breaks, **** it, I'll buy another and have a brand new machine with back up parts available from the old one if needed. At that price they're disposable so why worry about it. This is a no brainer. The Primeweld might actually be a better machine than the Ahp and it’s equally as cheap. The only reason not to buy one or the other is that you need more than 200 amps.

 

[kmacht]

Well as a counterpoint my 3 in 1 chinese tig welder (giantech) crapped out on me last week. It worked great for about 3 years but when using it to stick weld some plate it just stopped working. It turns on but won't strike an arc on the stick setting and won't start at all on the tig setting. I get one little spark out of the tungston and then it stops. I ended up buying a dedicated miller stick welder off of facebook to finish the project I had but haven't decided if I am going to try and fix the 3 in 1 machine or start looking for another tig. I have seen some posts about a bad diode causing the issue. It was a great machine when it did work. I think I paid around $400 for it.

Keith

 

[pi_guy]

Rely on current information to buy current goods.

Having a welder function for 43 years is current information.

To clarify the welder traveling up and down the East coast for ten years with no issues. The counter point is all the HF **** that I bought that was assembled by nuts and bolts like the welding table, fell apart. Unlike the Dynasty that never needed any work.

I have had guys at the track with low end TIG machines that had me do the weld because they knew the quality would be better with a professional machine.

So if you want to be professional spend the money.
If you want to keep playing and pretend your professional carry on with the cheap stuff.

 

[Jagmandave]

I don't think it's pretending, nor do I think it's a matter of playing professional as you put it - it's expense vs usage. If I were traveling up and down the east coast as a professional welder I would in fact need top level equipment - as a home or hobbyist - I don't..... simple as that. But I would want to know that it will hold up, and that I can get consumables for it years down the road.

I have an inexpensive Clarke mig welder I bought in 1990 from a place like Harbor Freight, it still works perfectly and I have had zero problems with it, but I don't travel up and down any coast with it on the back of a truck either, and I don't use it every day for 8-10 hours a day. I don't think that was the intention of the OP either.

My question on the AHP or Primeweld is the duty cycle - is it 20% or less? If so that can hamper progress on a major project, even a home built one.

Also, when looking at the front of the AHP, it has about 8 switches and 9 different pot knobs, is there a good guide somewhere that talks about what these different functions are and how to use them?

 

[DerekV]

Also, when looking at the front of the AHP, it has about 8 switches and 9 different pot knobs, is there a good guide somewhere that talks about what these different functions are and how to use them?

They’re pretty self explanatory. For example, the post flow knob allows the user to adjust the post flow time up or down, which is an adjustable feature on most TIG machines.

The concepts/principles of all the adjustable features on the AHP aren’t unique to that machine.

 

[dr_clyde]

Dave,
Thanks for clarifying the difference between pro and home.
We were trying to be steered down the
'Buy a Knee mill for your one car rented condo's garage to make soap box derby wheels one time, ever' (a real response to someone wanting a $90 drill press).

Home use has nothing to do with a 50 year old noninverter machine.
If it did, we'd all have kaypro laptops.

There are videos on set up and use for these particular welders.
YouTube has them from. 3.minutes to 30 minutes long.
I won't watch them but I have to assume someone at least experiments and reports on the buttons and knobs.

I don’t think anyone was trying to steer anyone.

I just think it’s worth pointing out that cheap sub $1000 inverter welders are NOT the same as name brand machines. The argument of “its just as good for 1/4 the price” isn’t correct.

A home shop user may not need or want the features of a more expensive machine. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be at least aware they exist and why there is a big price gap.

These machines exist to fill a market gap. They are better now than they’ve ever been. But they aren’t the same as quality gear.

 

[DerekV]

My two cents...

I’m a hobbyist and I love working with metal, it’s probably my favorite pastime. I’m usually of the buy-once-cry-once crowd, especially with equipment or things that I use enough to appreciate the quality/consistency/features that I paid top dollar for. Up to a certain threshold, say $2k, if something like this from a reputable/well-established company is ~1-3x the cost of a well-received cheap alternative, I usually go for the reputable option. It’s a reach, but it’s at least somewhat within reach and the joy you’ll get using it will make it easy to forget about the increased cost. This is assuming the reputable option has nicer features, usability, support, etc., even if “the specs aren’t as good”. Don’t discount the value of something that’s nice to use. I will put the arc quality/ease of use/niceties (looking at you, Fan on Demand) of my Millermatic 211 up against ANY Everlast/AHP/whatever MIG machine any day. To me it is absolutely worth the ~2x cost. Same goes for my Hypertherm plasma. The cost is worth it and the ultimate price is within reach, even if it’s a little stretch.

TIG welders on the other hand...for a hobbyist...even a hobbyist that has a small side business...wow. The prices are so high. The “Fisher Price” (as I like to call it) Diversion 180 is a JOKE of a machine and commands an embarrassing price. Even the inverter Synchrowave 210 is priced high, and for what? It’s not small. It’s not light. Its power is low...aluminum needs amps. Its features are very limited...a big reason to use TIG is to have fine control over as many aspects of the weld as possible. These machines are dumb. Now you look at the Dynasty because it has everything you want in a TIG machine, but it comes with a very industrial price tag. I can appreciate that, but for a hobbyist without limitless pockets, it’s just too rich.

With something like the well-received AHP, the price isn’t even 1/6th of a Dynasty...I honestly don’t think a Dynasty is 6x better for a hobbyist. It is better, but it’s an industrial machine with an industrial price the most hobbyists can’t justify. The compromises you make with an AHP don’t stack up 6x IMHO. This is precisely why companies like AHP and Everlast (even HTP) are gaining traction. They’re filling a huge void in the TIG market.

 

[DerekV]

i don’t think anyone was trying to steer anyone.

I just think it’s worth pointing out that cheap sub $1000 inverter welders are not the same as name brand machines. The argument of “its just as good for 1/4 the price” isn’t correct.

A home shop user may not need or want the features of a more expensive machine. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be at least aware they exist and why there is a big price gap.

These machines exist to fill a market gap. They are better now than they’ve ever been. But they aren’t the same as quality gear.

100%

 

[p00p]

I'm no pro welder, but I have had a hard time with the AHP tig welder. Finding the right settings for aluminum has been my problem.
Once I figure it out I am sure it'll be a breeze.

 

[dogdog]

I'm no pro welder, but I have had a hard time with the AHP tig welder. Finding the right settings for aluminum has been my problem.
Once I figure it out I am sure it'll be a breeze.

LOL finding the right setting on my Dynasty 200DX is the same. I don't weld enough to get intimate with my welder. Most of the time it's wham bam thank you madam, until the next time I needed a piece of metal to be welded. It's ground hog day all over again. But that is not the welder's fault.

 

[pi_guy]

I don't think it's pretending, nor do I think it's a matter of playing professional as you put it - it's expense vs usage. If I were traveling up and down the east coast as a professional welder I would in fact need top level equipment - as a home or hobbyist - I don't..... simple as that. But I would want to know that it will hold up, and that I can get consumables for it years down the road.

When I started I bought a machine because I was working on race cars, not that I was a full time welder. And I started in my garage.
The other point about the 42 year old machine in the 16 years that I had it it moved to 30 or 40 different shops. So it was not a garage queen, and when I sold it got about 3/4 of what I spent. Then got to visit it from time to time as I worked out of that race shop once in a while.

My Dynasty never did a 8 hour day and never will. But every time I go it use it it works. Honestly have never run into the duty cycle issue with any of my miller machines. The last job I turned away was a large CAT oil pan because I could not preheat it. Did not have an oven big enough.

Maybe it is a buy once cry once deal. But the point being if your thinking about doing it for money as I did while offering other services.
Listen to what Dr C says.

 

[p00p]

LOL finding the right setting on my Dynasty 200DX is the same. I don't weld enough to get intimate with my welder. Most of the time it's wham bam thank you madam, until the next time I needed a piece of metal to be welded. It's ground hog day all over again. But that is not the welder's fault.

lol well put.

 

[Jagmandave]

When I started I bought a machine because I was working on race cars, not that I was a full time welder. And I started in my garage.
The other point about the 42 year old machine in the 16 years that I had it it moved to 30 or 40 different shops. So it was not a garage queen, and when I sold it got about 3/4 of what I spent. Then got to visit it from time to time as I worked out of that race shop once in a while.

My Dynasty never did a 8 hour day and never will. But every time I go it use it it works. Honestly have never run into the duty cycle issue with any of my miller machines. The last job I turned away was a large CAT oil pan because I could not preheat it. Did not have an oven big enough.

Maybe it is a buy once cry once deal. But the point being if your thinking about doing it for money as I did while offering other services.
Listen to what Dr C says.

And that was my point, the OP is not talking about using it to make a living, is he? He said "light duty auto fab" which to me sounds like mostly sheet metal or maybe the odd roll cage/brackets or small frame work.

 

[dr_clyde]

And that was my point, the OP is not talking about using it to make a living, is he? He said "light duty auto fab" which to me sounds like mostly sheet metal or maybe the odd roll cage/brackets or small frame work.

He also asked why Miller equipment was more expensive, and wanted to compare and contrast.

It would be a disservice to only recommend cheap just as much as only recommending expensive.

The whole point of asking for advice on a forum is to get a broad range of opinions and experiences.

 

[pi_guy]

And that was my point, the OP is not talking about using it to make a living, is he? He said "light duty auto fab" which to me sounds like mostly sheet metal or maybe the odd roll cage/brackets or small frame work.

I didn't start off wanting to be a full time welder it was just a tool in my kit.
Too often if you start doing something and its starts to make you money you have a tendency to keep doing it.

But the point that I try to make is flexibility is useful during your life span, and I go for the better tools as they have always paid off and opened doors.

Phrases you will never hear.

I have too much horsepower in my car.
Gee I wish I had bought a smaller welder.
Why did I buy all these good pro tools when I could have just bought ****.

 

[dr_clyde]

In my experience, everything breaks or needs service eventually. Even if it it’s just consumables or wear parts. Sometimes accidents happen.

I have had very good luck with my Miller equipment, but I have had a couple instances where I’ve needed their service department.

I had to have a board replaced in one of my Maxstar tig machines. I had my gang box fall out of a front end loader on a jobsite due to a faulty strap. Fell about 8 feet to the ground. My Maxstar worked intermittently after that. I took it to the LWS, told them what happened and that I needed it fixed. Miller fixed it for free, said it was still under warranty and they would take care of it. They knew it fell and they still fixed it.

 

[dr_clyde]

I've also found that higher end equipment tends to hold its value much better, and as such the resale is a lot better.

I've bought used welders, used them for years and in one case a decade, then sold them for as much or more than I paid. I've done this with Lincoln and Miller machines at least 3 times.

If I was in OP's shoes, I would buy a used Syncrowave 250 like Matt suggested. If he decides he likes tig welding, then he's got a machine that will likely outlive him. If he decides that it isn't for him, then he can probably sell the machine for what he's got in it.

I was GIVEN a Syncrowave 250, didn't need it, so I gave it to my uncle for free, as he actually needed a TIG machine for home. Deals are out there, you just have to look.

 

[Jagmandave]

What does a good 250 Synchrowave cost? Are they readily available?

 

[Nicks garage]

Though I would agree that higher end will hold its value I also think it’s very dependent on use, I can’t comment on the quality of the tig I have bought because I’m waiting on consumables but for 466 GBP For a 250amp ac/dc I’m not into it for much and could easily re sell it. I actually have zero use for one at the moment but time on my hands and wanted one because I wanted one, a proper decent one was 2-3k and my wife would notice me spending that!

 

[Jrems]

Thanks for the input everyone, Im definitely leaning towards the miller maybe even the syncrowave 250s just gotta get an estimate to upgrade service to my garage, its not really a matter of if ill use it or like how much, ive started to do more fab work and have been enjoying making everything i can, the only thing i really lack is well, skill but id rather grow into a machine than grow out

 

[dogdog]

if you have a smaller garage, means not heavy industrial fab work.. the dynasty series might be better or if you are home shop the AHP tig might be the best value for the $$$.