TIG setup with a spool gun

[theoldwizard1]

Okay, I understand there is a difference between TIG and MIG (one is constant current, the other is constant voltage) All modern TiG and MIG welders have some kind of computer controlling the output. So why aren't there more more decent quality TIGs with a spool gun (even as an option) ?

Miller SyncroWave is way over priced for a DIYer !

 

[NitroShark]

I think the short answer is,, TIG requires a great deal of operator input , and is a welding process that is not a universal one size fits all spool gun output.

Heat control is soo important in the tig process I don't really see how an automated spool gun would work at all. Plus a very bulky torch.

When you Tig weld YOU create the puddle then cool the puddle with weld rod, It's a very manual input/operator type of experience.

 

[MJD1]

Tig is a constant current process that uses high frequency for starting and maintaining the arc, especially on AC current. Mig, which using a spoolgun is, is a constant voltage process. The previous Miller " shopmaster" was somewhat capable in that aspect, but did require a add on high frequency starter box. Generally the cost for all in one machines is so high that it isn't practical. Another factor is how much **** do you want on a welder cart, it gets to a point where it's more of a pain in the *** than it's worth.

 

[helterskelter]

Your question doesn't make sense. Are you asking why TIG's don't have wire feeders? Or are you asking why aren't TIGs capable of MIG welding? There's plenty of auto-tig and dabber-tig options available for production welding. But there's no advantage for a hobbyist to have a wire feeder.

If you're asking why aren't TIG power supplies capable of MIG welding...that's what MIG welders are for.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You guys are all missing the point. First, the Miller Syncrowave is a TIG machine that is sold with both a TIG torch AND a spool gun, so the capability of doing constant current and constant voltage from the same machine exists ! With modern computer controls, is probably pretty simple to do !!

I'm just wondering why more TIG companies. like AHP Welding systems (makers of the AlphaTIG and the AlphaMIG), would not offer a spool gun option on their TIG setups ?

 

[joe_padavano]

I'm just wondering why more TIG companies. like AHP Welding systems (makers of the AlphaTIG and the AlphaMIG), would not offer a spool gun option on their TIG setups ?

It's a different welding process. TIG is closest to oxy/acetylene welding. Would you want a spool gun for your gas welder? Much of my TIG welding is pure fusion weld with little or no filler anyway.

If you want a spool gun, stick with MIG.

 

[dr_clyde]

Why sell you one welding machine when they can sell you two?

 

[dr_clyde]

The real answer lies mostly on cost. It costs more to build a welder with all the controls, ports, and functionality of both CC and CV welding output. Its not as simple as programming a board to do both, there's hardware involved too.

There exist lots of DC multiprocess machines that will do DC tig and run a spoolgun. Most popular are the Miller Multimatic 200 and the Lincoln 210MP.

If you're after a dedicated AC/DC TIG machine that has CV output and HF, there exist a few others beyond the Syncrowave, but they are not very common or cheap. Miller makes the best of these, the new Dynasty 280 can be had with CV, so you can run a voltage sensing feeder and do wire welding.

 

[GaryM909]

They do make them. http://dyna-torque.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/BU3G0642.png
I have never seen a hand held manual one ( if they exist ) but lots for welding pipe.

 

[K13]

I think you answered your own question. They will be too expensive for a DYIer and most professionals are probably not going to want a multi process machine so there would be a very limited market. Also most DYIer don't weld a lot of aluminum so I would imagine the need for a spool gun is almost nonexistent on entry level machines. The little bit of aluminum welding most DYIers do the regular TIG process works fine.

 

[dr_clyde]

Guys, he's not looking for a TIG wire feeder, or a cold feeder.

He wants basically a Syncrowave that can run a spool gun GMAW as well. Running MIG off the TIG power source.

 

[dnschmidt]

AHP's new MIG (just got a Email about it yesterday saying that's it's available for pre-oreder) has both CV and CC, HF start plus AC for Aluminum. My view is TIG is a really difficult, specialized and slow process. I can do it but not really very well. I use my TIG mostly for silicon bronze brazing a process for which it is ideally suited. With respect to welding aluminum TIG is not very good for anything over 1/8" thick unless you've got a water cooled torch and a >200 amp machine. My ProPulse 200 does aluminum in pulse and double pulse WAY BETTER than I'll ever be able to to TIG on aluminum (it can do the thin stuff too) and it can easily go up to 3/8" if I just do a slight pre-heat (200F) with a MAPP torch. All welding **** is done with TIG. Now I really like **** of all varieties but I prefer to be able to capably stick metal together (I'm a god with a grinder) so for me the welding process of choice is MIG. A lot of people use a MIG as a wire feeder for TIG. I have a friend that's quite skilled at this. He holds the MIG torch in one hand and the TIG torch in the other and lets the MIG feed the wire into the puddle. BUT HE'S A REALLY GOOD WELDER and I'm not at that level. TIG has it's place in the world but unless you're really into showing off it's not that big of a place. Just my point of view.

 

[Firebrick43]

Okay, I understand there is a difference between TIG and MIG (one is constant current, the other is constant voltage) All modern TiG and MIG welders have some kind of computer controlling the output. So why aren't there more more decent quality TIGs with a spool gun (even as an option) ?

Miller SyncroWave is way over priced for a DIYer !

High school economics. Guns and butter.

While you may imagine it over priced, if the technology was easy/cheap, was good demand, then competition would bring out competing models.

Cc/cv multiprocess machines have been available for decades but favor stick and mig over tig. And they cost 5000+ by the time you get all the pieces together and wire it up. Most are 480 3 phase as well

The real question is why you feel you need a spool gun on a tig???
Spool guns have been a lousy but somewhat workable solution for aluminum but what about steel? Do they even make steel rolls of wire to fit a spool gun? What a pain to find and use even if they do.

Also aluminum takes so much heat and with mig is a process for realitively thick aluminum you really need a 250 amp plus machine. On sub 3/16 aluminum the puddle with mig will drop out so fast that few hobbiest could actually do it. This is where tig allows time and finesse to work with thinner aluminum. Most thin aluminum mig work is automated for this reason. Also while somewhat easy to get good looking beads with mig(1/4+), penetration can be non exsistant yet bead appearance is excellent. Aluminum Mig is the hardest process the master from a strength performance standpoint. A 200 amp machine couldn't weld

As both a hobbiest owner of an older syncrowave and maybe 10 hours a week tig/stick/mig work (at work) with 350 syncrowaves and large cc/cv dimension welders I see the ability to use a spool gun on a 200 amp class machine as a joke than a workable solution. Even 1/4 aluminum mig is going to require 190-200 amps and your machine will only have 10 or 20 percent duty cycle. Thicker with mig would not be possible.

Very narrow usable range for the cost.

 

[BukitCase]

" Do they even make steel rolls of wire to fit a spool gun? What a pain to find and use even if they do. "

Not so - steel's available in 2# spools in all 3 usual diameters, .023/.030.035 - my 30A spool gun runs all 3 just fine, and keeps me from having to "fly" the 400+ pound MM252 with big bottles just to reach -

I pre-fabbed the angled pieces of my container roof on the ground, but did ALL the "purlins" and some of the other welds in the air - dead calm or windbreak, did some of each.

Second half of the roof was all prefabbed in 3 bolt-up modules, and with loader and "tinker toys" it can be dis-assembled and moved the same way.

Yeah, it's kinda hokey but it beats the hell outa workin' on implements in rain and mud til the money's available for a second (metal/mechanical) shop... Steve

 

[zkling]

The real answer lies mostly on cost. It costs more to build a welder with all the controls, ports, and functionality of both CC and CV welding output. Its not as simple as programming a board to do both, there's hardware involved too.

There exist lots of DC multiprocess machines that will do DC tig and run a spoolgun. Most popular are the Miller Multimatic 200 and the Lincoln 210MP.

If you're after a dedicated AC/DC TIG machine that has CV output and HF, there exist a few others beyond the Syncrowave, but they are not very common or cheap. Miller makes the best of these, the new Dynasty 280 can be had with CV, so you can run a voltage sensing feeder and do wire welding.

This, with the spool gun option you now have to add motor control capabilities to the power source.

It can be broken down into a few different hardware requirements.

CC - dc ex Maxstar series
CV - dc ex Millermatic 211
CC - ac/dc ex syncrowave 250
CV/CC - dc ex xmt 304
CV/CC - ac/dc ex syncrowave 210

 

[sberry]

If I was a hobby guy doing general maintenance would get or start with 2 machines. I know a guy bought a211 and a Dynasty, used the dyn about once and the 211 regular. Find a friend with a tig for when you absolutely have to have one which I find pretty rare,,,, I can,,,, and I got them,,, don't use.
I however use a small feeder constantly and a small dvi inverter for sticks. Those are the 2 I would start with and really the mig first, might not even need the other one. My neighbor hasn't been here in 10 years to weld once he got a 175 feeder.
My but saver in alum is a spooly, has really replaced my tig.
The mig is so widely used I have one for each wire size but could get by with a 200 class especially if I was willing to switch wire once in a while.
I am a career welder, contract on occasion and have bigger machines for that work. For most hobby guys there isn't much potential savings, as the use goes up the cost of bigger machines pays for themselves. I don't use them much but not selling a couple of them either. I do most of the work with small stuff and in the grand scheme could just about get by without the rest of it. The amount of stuff a guy can fix with a small feeder makes the payback really fast if he is busy at all.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Also aluminum takes so much heat and with mig is a process for realitively thick aluminum you really need a 250 amp plus machine.
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As both a hobbiest owner of an older syncrowave and maybe 10 hours a week tig/stick/mig work (at work) with 350 syncrowaves and large cc/cv dimension welders I see the ability to use a spool gun on a 200 amp class machine as a joke than a workable solution.
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Very narrow usable range for the cost.

The most logical answer I have heard yet from an experienced welder !

 

[atthebeach]

More than 40 years ago, I was doing some high quality, automated pipe welding using the hot wire TIG process on stainless, high nickel, and chrome moly materials. The automated TIG torch was driven by a constant current power supply and the wire feed torch was powered by a constant voltage power supply. The advantage was that x-ray quality, multi-pass welds could be produced at high deposition rates.

Flash forward to 2018, a similar process is now available in a hand held torch. Probably a little pricey for the home hobbyist, but it looks like it requires a lot less skill than the standard TIG process.

If you go to the website below be sure to click on the "Watch Our Commercial" link and the links for "Torch Configurations".

http://tiptigusa.com/2018/05/portable-units/

 

[dr_clyde]

More than 40 years ago, I was doing some high quality, automated pipe welding using the hot wire TIG process on stainless, high nickel, and chrome moly materials. The automated TIG torch was driven by a constant current power supply and the wire feed torch was powered by a constant voltage power supply. The advantage was that x-ray quality, multi-pass welds could be produced at high deposition rates.

Flash forward to 2018, a similar process is now available in a hand held torch. Probably a little pricey for the home hobbyist, but it looks like it requires a lot less skill than the standard TIG process.

If you go to the website below be sure to click on the "Watch Our Commercial" link and the links for "Torch Configurations".

http://tiptigusa.com/2018/05/portable-units/

Yeah, hotwire tig is a cool process, but somehow I don't see it catching on for the home shop.

 

[sberry]

The most logical answer I have heard yet from an experienced welder !

Amazing,, didn't know squat 20 posts ago.
I think the guy that postedwhat you are referring to has his own perspective but it comes from a job shop that obviously had a line of work to support it. But these companies didn't create this whole small spool gun product line cause it was useless. I havnt found a single job the little machine couldn't do in my small shop, a job shop but stopped in when I was testing this and said, very good.
Takes me a minute to weld out these fittings, how long a duty cycle does it need? The thing has retired my 300A tig.

 

[sberry]

The reason I harp on this a little is,,,. I don't let the my expertise get in the way of the experience. What I mean by that is,,, a realistic expectation of the demand and duty cycle of the person I would be recommending the right equipment for.
I have made this mistake and made it more than once. I hear it here,,, this is what we use at work etc. I learned on a 400A SA on a pipeline,,, well that doesn't really apply to Joe 2 gar in the burbs wants to tinker ibn the yard and build some swingset for the grandkids.
If I disregard contracting and and heavy ironwork where my education and apprenticeship was and consider what my real use is now it resembles many hobby and maintenance shops. Only rarely do I ever get something that demands more than small common equipment and given the fact I am not in racing or a specialized hobby the real work is done with a 200 class mig 99,5% maybe more.
If I was in a specialty shop like the dr. lots o alloy work, its why they bring it there,,,, but,,,, it doesn't truly reflect most hobby types. In many cases its a matter of cost for professionals, cost of time and materials, larger machines, same process even reduce the cost, some 1/2 some more.