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Tig welding with a pace maker/ defib

mark18mwm

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Ok, this will probably start a few arguments but, I have a question about TIG welding if I have a pace maker defibrillator. I know many people say not to weld at all with a PM/defib. However, according to my electrophysoligst if I stay below about 135 -140 amps (MIG or stick)and take a few precautions I will be fine. By precautions I mean with stick welding wrap the + and- leads around each other to prevent building a electro magnetic field between the leads, always ground as close to the work as possible and work as far from the welding machine itself to stay out of it's electro mag field. I regularly weld stick and Mig and never have a issue, I have even went as far as welding right before a appointment to "read" the PM/defib history to check it has no bearing on it's use, it doesn't seem to. They cant even notice any differaces any time I have been welding when I give them exact times to look at. Now, here is my question. I have never TIG welded , I have a ESAB TIG welder and would like to learn to use it. Does the TIG machine put out any higher electro magnetic field then stick or MIG? Do any of you guys with a PM/defib TIG weld? I asked the DR. but he don't know anything about TIG practices or machines. Any advise?
 
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kenewagner

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Ok, this will probably start a few arguments but, I have a question about TIG welding if I have a pace maker defibrillator. I know many people say not to weld at all with a PM/defib. However, according to my electrophysoligst if I stay below about 135 -140 amps (MIG or stick)and take a few precautions I will be fine. By precautions I mean with stick welding wrap the + and- leads around each other to prevent building a electro magnetic field between the leads, always ground as close to the work as possible and work as far from the welding machine itself to stay out of it's electro mag field. I regularly weld stick and Mig and never have a issue, I have even went as far as welding right before a appointment to "read" the PM/defib history to check it has no bearing on it's use, it doesn't seem to. They cant even notice any differaces any time I have been welding when I give them exact times to look at. Now, here is my question. I have never TIG welded , I have a ESAB TIG welder and would like to learn to use it. Does the TIG machine put out any higher electro magnetic field then stick or MIG? Do any of you guys with a PM/defib TIG weld? I asked the DR. but he don't know anything about TIG practices or machines. Any advise?

Cant advise you on everything you asked. I know all my tig welders have High Freq to allow a quick smooth start. I have found it effects my cell phone on occasions. So I know there is always that possibility

Ken
 

Camper

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My Tig welder turned my radio off a few times when striking an arc.
 

mustange70

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It's the High Frequency that causes issues. In school there was a guy with a metal plate somewhere in his body from an old accident, they were TIG welding (with high freq.) and in that particular situation the HF affected the plate in a way to cause him a bunch of health problems that resulted in a trip to the ER (its been a few year and I can't remember the specifics).

Only way to be 100% sure is to talk with the manufacture of the pace maker with the details of your welder, and see if it will cause issues, and the opposite as well, check with ESAB on potential health issues with the pace maker. The new machines (welders & pace makers) have come a long ways and are miles safer then they ever were, so past issues may not be valid today.
 
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mark18mwm

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Thank's guys. I think I might play it safe and just let some one else weld with it for me. If TIG can turn off radios, turn on lights, and screw around with a plate in a body I don't think it's worth the risk for the little I would use it. Mustange70, I think that is good advise, but the pace maker manufacturer rep tell me not to weld at all, but the DR. says it is ok as long as I follow the mentioned "rules" . My DR. said he thinks it's a liability thing with the manufacturer. In this litigious world I can understand their thinking, unfortunately. I guess I should just be happy I can still MIG and stick, albeit only at lower amps. I would still like to hear from guys with a PM/defib that have TIG'ed and what their experience was. Thanks again.
 

turbowoodworker

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Can you contact customer service or engineering at the manufacturer of your pacer/defib device (Medtronic?)? You might get some accurate advice if you can supply them with the welder's specs.
 

Stusmobile

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I'm a welder by trade and had a defib fitted about 4 years ago.

I was extremely concerned about having it fitted and the chance that I would no longer be able to work. I spent a lot of time talking to both my cardiologist and the rep from the company that manufactured the device. While no one could say for certain that there would be no issues with welding, the consensus was that welding is not a big problem with implanted defibs/pacemakers.

My defib has the pacemaker function too but it is only used for "testing" at my annual cardio visit. I also use remote monitoring the rest of the time and have never had calls or comments about weird readings.

The way it was explained to me was that it depends entirely where the wires lay in your chest and that is dictated by how deep your veins are where the wires run. The device itself is pretty bullet proof in regards to to shielding, but the wires can send false triggers.

After returning to work I made sure that my manager was actually in the welding bay and knew what to do just in case the device got triggered. I started welding low amps and through the day built up until I was sure that I could weld anything that came through the shop. I run both MIG and TIG, 65 amps through 200+ amps, steel and aluminum and have never had an issue. 90% of my welding now is TIG, usually topping out at around 125 amps on steel and 165 amps on aluminum.

You already have the safety side of things down with regards to grounding and cable management. If you have somebody you know and trust enough to sit and watch you, I'd be tempted to try low amps and see. At the end of the day my trade was at stake and that kind of forced me to try, you know how much you want to weld and what it is worth to you.

As an aside, when my device was fitted they claimed the battery was good for 9 years or so .... last check up had me at 12 years, I'm thinking I'm getting a free recharge while welding.
 

NUTTSGT

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This is what I love about GJ, you learn something everyday.

While I don't have the health conditions entailed, it is great info for me to tuck away in the back of my mind. If we ever go on an EMS call and the guy has been welding and has issues, it's something I can throw out to the medics or ER staff and they can check into it.
 
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mark18mwm

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This is what I love about GJ, you learn something everyday.

While I don't have the health conditions entailed, it is great info for me to tuck away in the back of my mind. If we ever go on an EMS call and the guy has been welding and has issues, it's something I can throw out to the medics or ER staff and they can check into it.

As it was explained to me, the biggest danger with welding with a defib is it picking up electo magnetic field and sort of "confusing' the defib into thinking you are in fibrillation and triggering a shock. The danger then is passing out or what ever may happen to the person (every one is a bit different) by falling or something of that nature. I unfortunately have been shocked three times so far for medical reasons, nothing related to welding and know how it affects me. That being said, I don't want a shock if I can prevent it. Since I have experienced it I was told by the doc's to basically not get too excited about it after it happened, unless it keeps repeating shocks, or I am in the typical distress of a heart attack or am just uncomfortable and want to go to the ER for piece of mind. I do contact my DR. as soon as possible and ask his advise and he can see every thing that has happened from my home monitor. The three times it happened to me I felt much better after it went off then the days before it went off.
 
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mark18mwm

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I'm a welder by trade and had a defib fitted about 4 years ago.

I was extremely concerned about having it fitted and the chance that I would no longer be able to work. I spent a lot of time talking to both my cardiologist and the rep from the company that manufactured the device. While no one could say for certain that there would be no issues with welding, the consensus was that welding is not a big problem with implanted defibs/pacemakers.

My defib has the pacemaker function too but it is only used for "testing" at my annual cardio visit. I also use remote monitoring the rest of the time and have never had calls or comments about weird readings.

The way it was explained to me was that it depends entirely where the wires lay in your chest and that is dictated by how deep your veins are where the wires run. The device itself is pretty bullet proof in regards to to shielding, but the wires can send false triggers.

After returning to work I made sure that my manager was actually in the welding bay and knew what to do just in case the device got triggered. I started welding low amps and through the day built up until I was sure that I could weld anything that came through the shop. I run both MIG and TIG, 65 amps through 200+ amps, steel and aluminum and have never had an issue. 90% of my welding now is TIG, usually topping out at around 125 amps on steel and 165 amps on aluminum.

You already have the safety side of things down with regards to grounding and cable management. If you have somebody you know and trust enough to sit and watch you, I'd be tempted to try low amps and see. At the end of the day my trade was at stake and that kind of forced me to try, you know how much you want to weld and what it is worth to you.

As an aside, when my device was fitted they claimed the battery was good for 9 years or so .... last check up had me at 12 years, I'm thinking I'm getting a free recharge while welding.

Thank You very much. That is the kind of response I was hoping to get back. My device is a ST. Jude and soon I need to see the rep anyway so I will go in armed with the exact specs of the welder and what I would like to do with it and hopefully he can look into it and give me a honest answer and not just a answer to satisfy the malpractice lawyers.

Glad to here you are getting good battery life, I had mine replaced after a year ( mechanical problem in the device were the leads hook up) so I started a new seven years then. I have only had one since 2012 then replaced as I say in 2013 but I am using mine for constant pacing and it's using up my battery kind of fast, about three years left at this rate. Thanks again!

I truly appreciate all the replies and advise offered here. Thanks guys.
 
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Stusmobile

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This is what I love about GJ, you learn something everyday.

While I don't have the health conditions entailed, it is great info for me to tuck away in the back of my mind. If we ever go on an EMS call and the guy has been welding and has issues, it's something I can throw out to the medics or ER staff and they can check into it.

If they are anything like me they will have a card in their wallet detailing their implanted device. I also wear dog tags detailing emergency cardio contacts, device type and restrictions and other relevant information.
 

Stusmobile

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Thank You very much. That is the kind of response I was hoping to get back. My device is a ST. Jude and soon I need to see the rep anyway so I will go in armed with the exact specs of the welder and what I would like to do with it and hopefully he can look into it and give me a honest answer and not just a answer to satisfy the malpractice lawyers.

Glad to here you are getting good battery life, I had mine replaced after a year ( mechanical problem in the device were the leads hook up) so I started a new seven years then. I have only had one since 2012 then replaced as I say in 2013 but I am using mine for constant pacing and it's using up my battery kind of fast, about three years left at this rate. Thanks again!

I truly appreciate all the replies and advise offered here. Thanks guys.

My device is a Boston Scientific, if you need any more details feel free to PM me.
 

TheEquineFencer

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On the subject of medical devices, I had to wear a heart monitor for 24 hours years ago because of chest pains. I was hooked up and sent home and back to work, came back at the end of 24 hours and it was removed. The next day I got an urgent call at work that they wanted to see me right now. I left work and went straight to the doctors office for "debriefing." They wanted to know if I felt OK and what I did after I left the office after they hooked the monitor up. I left the office and went to Tony's Pizza at the Mall for lunch, then stopped by the video arcade for a quick game of Terminator before going back to work. Turns out the video game must have really gave my heart a workout. I think he said the heart rate went up to almost 200 BPM for short burst then would drop to normal, then go back up. We both had a good laugh over it.
 

EdT

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I doubt the manufacturer of the device or the welder is ever going to tell you it's OK if there's even the slightest chance that there could be a problem. Even if there's NO chance that there could be a problem they would probably not say so. Neither of them want your estate coming after them if there is any problem that could be remotely associated with the situation. Of course, the smart lawyer would take the case on contingency and sue both manufacturers and your doctor and let them fight it out.
 

Showkey

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Just got a new pacemaker ( no defib) after 9.5 years the battery hit the low threshold. Mine device paces over 85% in both chambers. The new unit Medtronic is MRI safe as per the owner's manual. Guessing the MRI is the ultimate in magnetic fields ? In my case they reused the old leads which are not rated for MRI.

I have arc and MIG welded on a casual basis for years. That shielding material placed inside the the welding jackets at the PM location would be good insurance if welding is your career.
 
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NUTTSGT

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As it was explained to me, the biggest danger with welding with a defib is it picking up electo magnetic field and sort of "confusing' the defib into thinking you are in fibrillation and triggering a shock. The danger then is passing out or what ever may happen to the person (every one is a bit different) by falling or something of that nature. I unfortunately have been shocked three times so far for medical reasons, nothing related to welding and know how it affects me. That being said, I don't want a shock if I can prevent it. Since I have experienced it I was told by the doc's to basically not get too excited about it after it happened, unless it keeps repeating shocks, or I am in the typical distress of a heart attack or am just uncomfortable and want to go to the ER for piece of mind. I do contact my DR. as soon as possible and ask his advise and he can see every thing that has happened from my home monitor. The three times it happened to me I felt much better after it went off then the days before it went off.


Thanks again for the info, it's greatly appreciated.


If they are anything like me they will have a card in their wallet detailing their implanted device. I also wear dog tags detailing emergency cardio contacts, device type and restrictions and other relevant information.

Most of the time, a loved one is around. If not we do look for ID braclets/necklaces or in the fridge for a "vial of life."

Just the info that the welder may cuase an issue with the Defib/pacer is plenty enough info to know and have at hand.


Thanks again Gentlemen. :beer:
 

Superbec

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Just got a new pacemaker ( no defib) after 9.5 years the battery hit the low threshold. Mine device paces over 85% in both chambers. The new unit Medtronic is MRI safe as per the owner's manual. Guessing the MRI is the ultimate in magnetic fields ? In my case they reused the old leads which are not rated for MRI.
My wife just told me about the new mri-safe devices...

With welding you also have a chance of electric shock(even low voltage) , don't think that's good for the heart or the device. Had a gdm welder that shocked me a few times a day , quit that job anyway, but tried everything, I earthed the workbench ,checked everything ,it was just an evil Kemppi machine

Years ago when I started welding I killed a few phones just by holding in the pocket, the smartphones today seem to be unaffected.

Tig welding makes em fields not only when you start the arc with HF, start an arc on a poorly balanced round piece you'll see how it wiggles.

I think the strongest field you get from a plasma cutter though . I would stay away from those.
 

hunterguy86

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This is what I love about GJ, you learn something everyday.

While I don't have the health conditions entailed, it is great info for me to tuck away in the back of my mind. If we ever go on an EMS call and the guy has been welding and has issues, it's something I can throw out to the medics or ER staff and they can check into it.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read this thread. Filed away for use on the rig at some point.

OK, hijack off.
 

Krylon32

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Stusmobile: Are you still welding with a Tig? I read what you said above. I have a chassis shop and am a one man show and am getting a defib next month but I'm not ready to retire. All I do is tack the chassis together and then a certified welder that's worked for me for 30 years finish welds them. My doctor really doesn't know a lot about welding and the factory rep is covering his ****. Jusr curious as this thread is over 3 years old
 

Fueler

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I don't know if this means anything but my older transformer based TIG welders used to set off the electronic phone system and would mess with other electronics from time to time. I used to shut some things down while welding just to avoid the potential of letting the smoke out of them.

My latest Miller Dynasty which is inverter based does not bother anything.
Good thing because there sure is a lot of electronics around here these days.

Edit: Just happened to remember. I had a friend stop by, now retired that was a pro welder.
He just had the full meal deal heart work a little while back along with an implant. I asked about this. He said he still TIGs at home.
 
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Mekanizm

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When I got my ICD (Boston Scientific) in 2017 I asked about welding. The factory rep who I got to talk to while I was in the hospital said when I get ready he would come to my shop and check me out on welding. I had him come out and he disarmed the ICD and draped a receiver over my shoulder that was hooked to a laptop. I did TIG steel, TIG aluminum, Stick arc, MIG steel, MIG spoolgun aluminum and Plasma cutter. I did these at my normal levels doing all the right things like not draping the cords over my shoulder, keeping the welder itself at a distance, clean starts etc. Then we repeated these processes but this time I did it at max current (200A), leaning in close, cords over shoulder and stutter starts. No problems in any of these.

Before we started he told me that I need to know a couple of things. First was that the way the ICD works is that it is looking for a fast frequency. when it gets this fast frequency either real or fake (welding?) it performs four tests the first test is for appx. six beats IIRC. If it passes that test (fast frequency) then it tests again for six beats. If still fast it then monitors for four more using a more stringent set of parameters. then it does it again for four beats. If all four of these "gates" of whatever are satisfied that a fast 'heart-beat' exists then it charges and shocks when the charge cycle is complete.

He also said that there is no timing on when the shock hits, It just dump after it fully charges. He said what I need to know about this is that there a something called the "window of vulnerability". This is the ascending part of the T wave. If the shock happens to land on this few millisecond of time then it will PUT YOU INTO V FIB! Then the ICD runs all these tests again and shocks you the second time to restore natural rhythm. this is why some people fall out after getting an accidental shock like an electrician or a baseball player getting hit in the chest and dying. It now makes sense why they tell you if you have a problem stiking an arc, just wait 10 seconds or so and start again. This interupts the testing algorithm of the ICD.

What I got out of all this is the ability to tell my neighbor I can't weld on his POS lawnmower for the fifth time but I can still do my own projects.

I talked to some others and they tell me about the twisted leads, use dry gloves, don't stand in water, stretch out the cables to keep the welder at a distance etc. I have done welding since then and have had no problems.

My advice would be to push the factory rep to come out and test you doing your stuff. It was a BIG peace of mind to me. Don't take my word for it. YMMV.
 
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rlitman

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When I got my ICD (Boston Scientific) in 2017 I asked about welding. The factory rep who I got to talk to while I was in the hospital said when I get ready he would come to my shop and check me out on welding...
My advice would be to push the factory rep to come out and test you doing your stuff. It was a BIG peace of mind to me. Don't take my word for it. YMMV.

Wow! It's great to hear that the companies are getting on-board with the real world.
 

Milton Shaw

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I would think a chain mill coat would stop all RF energy from getting to a pace maker. They are use in battles depicting knights of the round-table. English war lords type re-in plays. Similar suits are worn by those working on extremely high voltage power lines live from helo's that I have seen on "How its Done" shows to ground them from the 350 kv lines.
 

rlitman

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I would think a chain mill coat would stop all RF energy from getting to a pace maker. They are use in battles depicting knights of the round-table. English war lords type re-in plays. Similar suits are worn by those working on extremely high voltage power lines live from helo's that I have seen on "How its Done" shows to ground them from the 350 kv lines.

That depends on the wavelength of the RF. Put your cell phone into a pouch made from typical chain mail and it will work just fine, but the finer links in my modern butcher's gloves will stop the microwave energy.
 

Hondafreak08

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Professional welder here
I have tig welded for 9years now and have seen them do all kinds of Walt things to surrounding equipment.
You can’t run my cnc plasma and weld at the same time (opposite rooms) because all the funny input

As much of a risker I am myself

don’t do it
You could pay a professional to lay high end welds on anything you need welded for 1/1000th the price of a hospital visit involving your heart would cost

If you already have a tig
Sell it and use the money to pay for future welding ect
 

Krylon32

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As per the advisory from the defibrillator company I've been practicing doing my tacking at about 140 amps 20 below the max recommended of 160. It has been working fine to hold my chassis together so my pro welder can come and finish them. Now to see if it works after I get my ICD. I will try and make an appointment with the rep to come monitor me when I strike my first arc, we'll see.
 

Krylon32

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Update: I had the defribulator/pacemaker installed 3 weeks ago and it's the latest hitech version available. had a tune up Friday and the devise rep says no problem welding with this devise, same thing the electrophysoligist said so after 4 weeks go by I'm going to give it a try, I'll let you know.
 

gazza

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A thread drift if I can please, still related though.
Has anyone had any problems with internal metal plates? Since August last year I have had a titanium plate fitted in my left cheek, I cant feel it and it does not show up on an airport metal detector but I have not thought about any concerns using a welder.
Thanks in advance.
 

rlitman

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A thread drift if I can please, still related though.
Has anyone had any problems with internal metal plates? Since August last year I have had a titanium plate fitted in my left cheek, I cant feel it and it does not show up on an airport metal detector but I have not thought about any concerns using a welder.
Thanks in advance.

No, inert metal inside you will not be affected by welding.

So long as nothing is magnetic, it is probably also MRI safe too. Your surgeon would know best.

I'd definitely carry a letter from your surgeon through airport metal detectors. Some are more sensitive than others.
 

Krylon32

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Still Tig welding with no problems. I haven't had the courage to try my Plasma or Mig yet. Life with the pacemaker/defibrillator goes on and I'm still building chassis. Been a little over a year. Haven't been thru an airport yet.
 

joe_padavano

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Still Tig welding with no problems. I haven't had the courage to try my Plasma or Mig yet. Life with the pacemaker/defibrillator goes on and I'm still building chassis. Been a little over a year. Haven't been thru an airport yet.

That's great to hear, thanks for the update. I've been following this because there's a possibility I may need a similar device at some point, and I'm concerned not only about my TIG but also just being around an automotive ignition system while it's running. As an aerospace engineer, I know it's possible to shield electronics, the question is, how do you know the device you're getting has the required shielding. Thanks for the great info.
 

cvairwerks

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Joe: Best thing to do, if it comes down to having one implanted, find out what they are going to use and contact the manufacturer beforehand and get the rundown from them. Had a friend long years ago that had to have on on temp basis while waiting a heart transplant. The word for him and in the condition he was in, no arc, tig, mig or plasma within 20 feet, but all the OA he could stand was ok. Problem for him, was he made his living doing tig and mig work. Slowed him down pretty good, and he managed to get by on OA and sheet metal work alone. Unfortunately he didn't survive too many years after his transplant due to other issues.
 

dffay

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Similar connection: Police who use Taser are taught that it will NOT cause an arrhythmia because the Taser frequency is different in wave than the pacemakers/defibs.

Here’s a little piece of trivia: If you are ever in a hospital or critical care facility and you hear CODE BLUE (heart attack) over the intercom........it’s not for you.

If it were you, you’d be too out of it...


That doesn’t mean though that if you’re in a hospital and hear nothing, then you are in cardiac arrest...
Just sayin’
 
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