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Tile - Perfect Level Master

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38 Dodge Coupe

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How does it work? I am not familiar with this product. I always just use my level to lay across the tiles to make sure that they are in line with one another.
 
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SiGmA_X

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I have zero experience with tile work, but I want to ensure I get no lippage when I eventually do tile.

The TLS looks really nice. Spendy, but a good finished product is worth the up front cost.
 

mobiledynamics

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Granted tile costs money....but so does thinset if not the most important part, PREP. PREP prep prep, deal with the substrate, etc before you start tiling. If the application requires, SLC, Shutler, etc.
 

duneslider

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That one is the same at the QEP version that you can get at home depot. They all do the same thing. The TLS is really nice but I wouldn't spend that kind of money for a one time job. Although, you can probably sell it after the job to recoup some of the cost.

I know one or two of my local suppliers have leveling kits they loan out. You buy the consumables from them and they lend you the caps and gun. Might be worth checking some of the local suppliers to see if any do that.
 
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SiGmA_X

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That one is the same at the QEP version that you can get at home depot. They all do the same thing. The TLS is really nice but I wouldn't spend that kind of money for a one time job. Although, you can probably sell it after the job to recoup some of the cost.

I know one or two of my local suppliers have leveling kits they loan out. You buy the consumables from them and they lend you the caps and gun. Might be worth checking some of the local suppliers to see if any do that.
Thats a great idea.
Granted tile costs money....but so does thinset if not the most important part, PREP. PREP prep prep, deal with the substrate, etc before you start tiling. If the application requires, SLC, Shutler, etc.
Absolutely.
 
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Cave Creek Ray

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That was slick!

I did my first tile work in my workshop. I had quite a few expansion joints I had to work around so I laid a bunch of smaller pieces about. Plus I was using 1/4 notches because the mortar called for it. So, there was plenty of opportunity to get edges high.

I used a 48" aluminum level just as a straight edge to make sure the tile edges leveled up with the neighboring edge. Another thing I discovered by accident was low angle light. Get a clamp-on workshop light and put it down near the floor. This will highlight any variations very easily for you as you lay. The edges look like the Grand Canyon if they are even slightly off.

Someone mentioned prep. I cannot agree more. One thing I noticed on my floor was the "waves" around the expansion joints. When the "cracker" tool slides through the wet concrete, it has to displace the concrete where the crack joint will be. That concrete goes to either side of the joint. I made up a crude drawing....

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The wave may be higher on one side than the other. I ground all of those down in my 1100 sq ft shop a foot either side of the joint and that allowed a relatively flat floor across the shop. If your floor does not check flat, no amount of tools will keep your tiles truly "flat" across the floor. Its a minor step, but a very critical one.

I am prepping my house garage for tile and have marked the high spots I need to take down. I will be removing old epoxy paint with a floor machine and 60 grit screens. I am going to try some 12 grit sanding wheels to see if they will take down the "waves" and what doesn't get leveled, I'll just grind with the hand grinder and diamond floor wheel.

Here's what the joints looked like after "de-waving" LOL...

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It was worth the effort.

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A friend who has a high-end storage barn for his "toys" and spent nearly 5 grand coating his floor with a beautiful epoxy was really concerned when he heard I was putting porcelain down in my shop. The first time he saw it down, he kept saying, "I really like this floor!"

Meetoo.
 

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SiGmA_X

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That looks really good, and thanks for the input on the levelness of the slab. Why did you cut the tile along the expansion joints? Can't you simply go over it? I was thinking of using a membrane over the control joints such as Schluter Ditra.
 

Cave Creek Ray

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Here are my notes...guaranteed to put you to sleep.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=294935

I did a bunch of research and the only common answer was, "Honor the expansion joints!" I decided, the best way to "honor" the stress path through the tile was to stay over the joint. The joints are filled with color-matching sand caulk.

One Pro who has a website for newbies like me suggested as long as you were within 6" of the expansion joint, you should pop the tile loose rather than cracking it. I didn't want to take a chance. I mortared up to the joint with the inevitable "******" into the expansion joint (which had been pre-caulked with flexible caulking before tiling began. I am using RTV Silicone in my house garage.) and then as the mortar started to set up, I used my margin trowel and sliced the joint open so the crack would have a path to the surface. When I got ready to grout, I caulked the crack with color-matching caulk and let it dry over night. Then I used the same color in grout, with a stain resistant admix added to the grout mix. Works like a charm. Nothing soaks into that grout.

Ray
 
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SiGmA_X

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Ray, I read most of your thread and some more info about control joints and tiling over them. Your thread was really interesting, actually - thanks for documenting it so well! I don't actually have control joints to worry about, but I do have some (very minor) cracking. Slab is 18yo and on compacted subgrade. I don't think there is any rebar in it from the plans, but I will know better once I get blade-deep into it.

My control joint concerns are from what I am doing to the slab. I am going to cut a large square for a in floor lift, and then a diagonal strip to a control box. The norm is to just drill a hole under the control box, but I have a footer that I need to remove part of (engineer agreed it was fine), so I am stuck with this. I am now considering doing two straights with a sweeping 90 and positioning it so I can put my tile joints over the two slab edges. Or perhaps cutting in a stair-step pattern so I can tile around the diagonally ran tube... Or maybe I should ignore it, I have seen a few rather old tiled floors around the pit hole in an existing slab without any issues.

Any other comments/suggestions?

Thanks,
Roman
 

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Cave Creek Ray

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Roman,

Not to worry.

I added 6-12" wavy additions to a concrete patio 20 years ago in preparation for flagstone overlay. Flag, though thicker, will not handle any movement without debonding or, more often, cracking the stone. I had zero issues over 20 years and considering the new add-on material was only supported on one side, that is a sign, through Arizona snow and 120 degree heat that the process was a good one. Your garage floor in Oregon will likely never see those extremes.

I would cut whatever you want with the following provisos.

The wider cuts can be drilled and re-barred every 12 inches with 3/8 or 1/2" rebar. You don't even need to epoxy them if the hole drilled in the existing concrete is 4" deep, or more. The rebar will hold on just fine. See A below...

The problem with your narrow control line cut is, you cannot drill in a narrow gap very easily. An alternative I have used successfully is B below. Bevel the cut slightly and then dig under the existing slab a couple inches along the trench. The new poured cement will lock itself into position and cannot sag or heave. I did this under my shower floor where I had to move my drain 6" after a total re-model of the shower. The tile on the floor is natural polished stone rocks about 1-2 inches across. Even with hot water in winter there is zero movement on that slab repair.

Cutting at a slight bevel is easier said than done! It doesn't take much to lock the old and new slabs together. Depending on your concrete saw, you can eitheryob a few feey of tape around one of the saw wheels or, get some 1/2" plywood or other material and put it under one of the wheels to keep your saw at an angle. Concrete cutting is kinda fun. The saws run $85 for four hours at Homey 'Po and they charge for a blade. Take my advice and just buy a good blade for $100 and use it for other cuts when you rent the saw again.

Pardon my Crayola drawings...

attachment.php


As for the repair cracks, and your shrinkage cracks, or small cracks from settling that nearly every floor ever poured has, I just used RedGard as an isolation membrane. The fabric membrane I mentioned in my article was both expensive and made by another manufacturer. Custom guarantees your floor from cracking when using their products. So, I just went with the crack isolation mortar and RedGard spread a couple feet either side of the major cracks. Worked great!

In my house garage, I am doing the same thing, only going with FlexBond White Crack Prevention Mortar instead of the heinously expensive stuff I used in the shop. I am also going to use a 3/8 trowel instead of 1/2" to thin out the base just a tad. I laid the office 20" tile with that and it worked out much easier keeping the tiles flat. Thick mortar allows the tile to get a little "tippy." Its the thicker mortar that helps with crack isolation but, taking 1/8" out won't hurt anything and I'll get more consistent lays.

Some people think saw-cutting your slab is insanity. My wife was unsure until she watched me cut the slab in our living room to add a floor plug. Using the water spray to cut dust to zero, you make a little mud. No biggee. Once you get the cut complete, you pull the pieces out and hose the mud back into the trenches. You end up very clean afterwards. Just wear headphones. Its loud. I think I cut over 100' of slab and patio in seven or eight areas during this remodel. No problems with any of them. Glad I bought a blade three-pack! Oh... and one last thing: Termites. Not that you'll get termites eating up your concrete but, I always like to leave the buggers something should they get under my slab. The night before pouring the concrete repair, I always pour a bucket of Termidor into the area and let it soak in. That takes care of termites for a decade. See these guys for great prices...

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/termidor-sc-p-184.html

Hope that helps.

Ray
 

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duneslider

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Your saw cuts for your lift are not the same as movement joints or control joints. I would dowel the new areas into the old though and I would highly recommend some sort of crack isolation membrane over the cut areas.
 

Cave Creek Ray

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Duneslider is right to mention doweling the larger cuts. But, if you want to go gonzo, you can bevel AND pin them.

I talked to the tech folks at Custom several times and they told me that the fabric membrane was not necessary as the RedGard filled that square. Supposedly, my tile, as installed, can handle 3/16 of movement in the concrete. How that might happen is way beyond me! If you are using Schluter products, then use their suggested method.

My point is, DO NOT WORRY about hacking up your floor to put the lift in. Cut what you need and if you do the repair correctly (either method) and then isolate over the repair (either method) you will have no problems.

What you will have is one kick-assed shop that people can't believe is tiled.

I did order Schluter Reno ramps for the house garage. Its going to get 50 times the use the shop will with cars and Utes and motorcycles going in and out several times a day. I am having new garage doors installed today and will set the ramps in so they are hidden under the door seal. Sticking them out not only looks odd but puts them under huge thermal stress (expansion) this time of year. Its supposed to be 118F today. Hiding them protects them and eliminates expansion worries.

Ray
 

ishiboo

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Oshkosh, WI
I investigated these tile alignment systems a few months ago for working on my bathroom, and found by far the Raimondi system got the best reviews. The QEP system and similar (Menards I think sells one variant, HD, etc.) gets generally poor reviews. With spacers and an alignment system I think amateurs can get a nearly 100% professional job with little issue.
 
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