Tilt trailer design, hydraulics and dynamics

[davejo]

It seems there are two or three types or designs to get the tail down to the ground. Is there a standard nomenclature? Tilt deck vs tilt tongue?

I have one that tilts the deck off the tongue and axle frame. I see these called gravity tilt, tilt deck etc. The deck is balanced 50/50 on its hinge. Mine is hydraulically cushioned but some are hydraulically powered. I'd like to add that to mine so you could use it to load two machines instead of one.

I have two others that tilt the deck and axles off the tongue. I see these described as generic tilt trailers. The decks are not balanced 50/50 so you need to press down on the tail to get it to drop. Most I see have hydraulics to actively tilt the decks but mine do not. I'd like to add that to mine.

Ideally Id like to be able to control the tilting of both types with gravity and a passive hydraulic circuit but I do have a 12 volt hydraulic system off a liftgate to work with if this is not possible. Any insights?

 

[MagKarl]

What do you mean when you say "passive hydraulic circuit"?

My uncle has a tilting car hauler where the tongue structure is pinned to the frame somewhere around the front axle, probably what you're referring to as "generic". His has a floor jack built into the tongue to lift the front of the deck and push the tail down. It works pretty slick, I plan on rebuilding mine this way one of these days.

 

[Spareparts]

On mine I used the tongue jack on the hinged deck to tilt the deck no power needed except armstrong. When finished just put it back on the tongue, swing it up and latch it.

 

[davejo]

Tongue jack and floor jack are new ideas to me. They make 12v tongue jacks, hmmm. I've seen simple cylinders and scissor hoists used.

Passive hydraulic would be a double action cylinder with the ports connected through a flow valve. Gravity moves the tilt when valve open. Valve closed locks deck in whatever position, flat or tilted. flow restriction controls the rate of tilting.

I have a Warn winch that would be handy for pulling dead machines up , maybe it could integrate into tilting duties somehow.

 

[davejo]

It took me a couple of weeks to clear the deck of the tongue tilt trailer. It was festooned with a drilling fluid machine for a horizontal ditch witch machine. The tilt function has obviously never been utilized, not sure why the factory set it up this way.

I definitely need a way to help it tilt up on its own, i was straining on the hi lift jack to get it tilted. Its too high in the air to use a hand crank jack, I need something that can mount on the tongue bar and be able to push the deck upwards about a foot.

I want whatever mechanism to not extend too far above or below the tongue beam and it needs to be able to follow a slight arc in direction as it raises the deck.

12 volt hydraulic system powering a floor jack or bottle jack? straight acting cylinder attached flat to the tongue beam pushing back on the leading edge of the deck? How about a pneumatic cylinder running off a small CO2 bottle?

 

[Farrier]

^^I don't think I ever seen a tilt trailer like that before.

Google "short body hydraulic ram". Might give you some different ideas

 

[davejo]

It's the same design as a small tilt trailer I have. This one is small enough that standing on the tail makes it tilt upwards. (The ditch witch manual says to stand on the tail of this one to make it drop but there is no way that would ever work. might work on a single axle, though.)

Those short rams only travel 1 to 3 inches, so I'd have to devise some progressive linkage design.

One idea that comes to mind is a log splitter type cylinder pushing a wedge between the tongue and the bed channel

 

[davetulk]

Video goes through it pretty good. You sure that trailer is not pinned on that front axle some how? I think both axles stay on the ground when tilted.

 

[Busted_Knuckles]

There are other options, this uses no hydraulics. I think there may be as many as 3 companies building these. This happens to be a Sloan, I think this is called a " Texas rollback " as a slang term. Sloan calls it a " kiwk load "

This has been seen here before, on GJ, I bought this new in 2005, its been to both coasts. They are surprisingly affordable, ride on Dexter torsion's, and brakes on all 4 corners.

I borrowed one of these, and then promptly got on the phone and ordered one. I drag ALLOT of **** home, I have about 10 trailers in the inventory. This pretty much only moves cars and light trucks.

 

[Bondo]

Ayuh,.... Right on top of the tongue beam, mount one of These, to a bracket ya build to put the other end right 'bout centered in the top of the C-channel or box tube, or lip over-hangin' the breast plate of the deck,...
Then abit forward on the top of the tongue, mount one of These to pump up the ram, when ya tilt the wagon,...

You'll only need a 1 way ram, as gravity will lower it collapsing the ram,...
You'll have the ram on an angle to the line of tilt, so, it'll tilt, rather than tryin' to bust the hinge pins,...
I'm guessin' the top of the ram bracket yer gonna build, will be 4" or 5" above the tongue tube,..??...
Plenty of angle,...

 

[IndyGarage]

There are other options, this uses no hydraulics. I think there may be as many as 3 companies building these. This happens to be a Sloan, I think this is called a " Texas rollback " as a slang term. Sloan calls it a " kiwk load "

This has been seen here before, on GJ, I bought this new in 2005, its been to both coasts. They are surprisingly affordable, ride on Dexter torsion's, and brakes on all 4 corners.

I borrowed one of these, and then promptly got on the phone and ordered one. I drag ALLOT of **** home, I have about 10 trailers in the inventory. This pretty much only moves cars and light trucks.

I've got one of those. It's a 1990 model - I think the first year they made them. Sloan Kwik Load. Great trailer - not sure why they've never really caught on.

The thing I like about it is that it's a really simple mechanism. It has two major parts - a "truck" that holds the wheels and axles and the deck, that's attached to the tongue. In driving configuration the truck is pinned to the deck in a normal wheel position.

To load you unpin the deck and push the brakes and the deck rolls back so the Truck is near the front of the trailer and the tail falls to the ground.

The rollback is pretty simple too. There are three sets of steel rollers - 4 each from front to back, built into a piece of rectangular tube steel, that are attached to the Truck, and they ride in three corresponding channels welded to the underside of the deck. Gravity keeps the deck from "jumping the track". The deck literally rolls off the wheels until it hits the stops.

 

[Busted_Knuckles]

I've got one of those. It's a 1990 model - I think the first year they made them. Sloan Kwik Load. Great trailer - not sure why they've never really caught on.
.

They are still in business, there is a dealer, about 45 miles from me, I was looking at a new one, about a month ago, mine needs brakes, tires, and paint, was thinking it might be easier and about the same $ just to buy a new one. Ive got a list of guys that want to buy mine..

 

[gazza]

Not a hydraulic tilt but a drive on tilt,Here is a couple of pictures of my tilt trailer which I built in the early 80's. It does not look that pretty these days but it still functions extremely well. Overall bed size is 15' x 6'5" and is rated to carry about 2 tons, perfect to move your average car which it was made to do.
It has short 4' ramps which seem steep but as the front wheels of the car roll onto the ramps the back of the trailer drops to the ground and its an easy drive on or winch on.
The tilt point comes on slowly and once you drive forwards enough you can easily fit the eye bolt lock downs.
Also these work best on a rocker spring trailer. I have no problems with low ground clearance or opening doors on a car once it is loaded due to the low sides.

 

[jayz66ragtop]

It took me a couple of weeks to clear the deck of the tongue tilt trailer. It was festooned with a drilling fluid machine for a horizontal ditch witch machine. The tilt function has obviously never been utilized, not sure why the factory set it up this way.

I definitely need a way to help it tilt up on its own, i was straining on the hi lift jack to get it tilted. Its too high in the air to use a hand crank jack, I need something that can mount on the tongue bar and be able to push the deck upwards about a foot.

I want whatever mechanism to not extend too far above or below the tongue beam and it needs to be able to follow a slight arc in direction as it raises the deck.

12 volt hydraulic system powering a floor jack or bottle jack? straight acting cylinder attached flat to the tongue beam pushing back on the leading edge of the deck? How about a pneumatic cylinder running off a small CO2 bottle?

I have a 22' flat deck car trailer that works about the same as this but it has a two way hydraulic ram to raise and lower the deck. The pivot point for the tongue beam is further back on mine but probably because of the overall length of the trailer. My trailers tongue is also an A so it has two connecting points instead of just one. All of the hydraulics are ran by a pump and battery in a tray under the deck. I had a tube mounted on top for a removable winch and a winch quick disconnect wires in to the bottom part of the deck. There is a positive and negative lug on the frame rail so if the battery goes dead or I want to take it with me I put a pair of jumper cables on them to a good battery to raise and lower the deck. I need to move some cars around in the next couple of weeks, I'll try to get some pictures of it tilted up and down.


For the above trailer maybe a lever system could be made so the ram lays down along the tongue rail and pushes on a bell crank that then pushes the deck up. Sounds complicated but don't think it would be that bad and would keep things nice and compact. You could even make it so the high lift jack or one like it tilts it up on the cheap. So the high lift jack sits in a saddle welded to the tongue on one end towards the hitch and hooks on to the bell crank on the other end. Then it would be totally manual, no electronics or hydraulics needed.

 

[davejo]

I'll measure the pivot lengths on my two tilting tongue trailers to see if there is a magic geometry to these things.

On the sliding deck trailers, are the axles surge brakes to get them to lock the wheels?

I'm leaning towards Bondo's suggestion of a ram on top of the tongue beam horizontal. I need to decide what size ram now. It needs to travel about 6 inches or so but I'm not sure what force would be required. If i oversize it, it will take longer to pump up. Pretty big ram on this one:

http://getquiktrailers.ca/shop/images/H&H 20' Manual Tilt 003.jpg

Ideally I'd like the ram to let the deck back down as the load is driven onto it automatically.

There was one instance when I couldn't drive something far enough onto my gravity tilt to get it to drop, dual action cylinder would have been handy in that case.

 

[Busted_Knuckles]

On the sliding deck trailers, are the axles surge brakes to get them to lock the wheels?

Cable actuated mechanical parking brake, you can buy a dexter axle that way, with electric brakes and a parking brake combined.

 

[jayz66ragtop]

http://getquiktrailers.ca/shop/images/H&H 20' Manual Tilt 003.jpg

This is sort of what mine looks like except mine the ram is under the deck instead of in front of it. The pivot points are further back on mine as well I believe.


Actually this one is very close to mine:

My battery is in a tray next to the pump under the deck instead of on the tongue.

 

[davejo]

I didn't want to spend any money on this until I knew it would actually work. There was much head scratching about lever ratios, ram travel and scrap repurposing involved. I ended up at a very ugly solution using a lift gate ram I have saved a few years. Ram only works in the pulling direction

so far, so good

 

[Sycan]

What happens when you drive something heavy on the trailer and that has several thousand pounds pushing down?

 

[kerrynzl]

What happens when you drive something heavy on the trailer and that has several thousand pounds pushing down?

The several thousand pounds isn't dropped onto the extreme front.

When you drive something on, the vehicle straddles the point of balance [or rocking]
All vehicles have a point of balance, a front heavy car sits a bit further rearward.

In most cases a hydraulic ram is needed to overcome the weight of the trailer deck.
A well built "gravity tilt" trailer doesn't require a ram. I've built a few using gas struts to help tilt the trailer without using people to lift it up.

 

[joe49]

What happens when you drive something heavy on the trailer and that has several thousand pounds pushing down?

It sits there until you actuate the valve to allow the oil in the single acting cylinder to return to tank.

 

[Sycan]

The several thousand pounds isn't dropped onto the extreme front.

When you drive something on, the vehicle straddles the point of balance [or rocking]
All vehicles have a point of balance, a front heavy car sits a bit further rearward.

In most cases a hydraulic ram is needed to overcome the weight of the trailer deck.
A well built "gravity tilt" trailer doesn't require a ram. I've built a few using gas struts to help tilt the trailer without using people to lift it up.

I'm not trying to come off rude, but look back at the picture of the handyman jack tilting the trailer, now imagine that skidsteer in the back ground on it. The front tires are off the ground, there will be several thousand pounds on his leaf spring links and their geometry gets real shady by the time the trailer is set back down. Two solid tubular links with pins on both ends would be way better. Just don't want to see somebody get hurt.

 

[davejo]

Yes this is still a potential issue. As built, the cylinder will hold the trailer tail on the ground until you get one axle up on it. The wheelbase and weight bias of a loaded vehicle will determine how much force gets placed on my contraption as the vehicle pulls onto the deck.

I need to figure out a way to activate the release valve remotely to let gravity take over as the load moves forward. I have another power unit with solenoids that control the ups and downs. I see the hydraulic trailer shown above has a long lanyard and switch that one carries along in the cargo vehicle to control the valve. I'd like some sort of wireless solution.

My bellcrank assembly, pivots and the leaf spring push rods are definitely cobby. I just started scrounging around to play with the geometry. I used graph paper to work out my lever ratios and i'll see if I can calculate potential loads on my pushrods.

 

[kerrynzl]

I'm not trying to come off rude, but look back at the picture of the handyman jack tilting the trailer, now imagine that skidsteer in the back ground on it. The front tires are off the ground, there will be several thousand pounds on his leaf spring links and their geometry gets real shady by the time the trailer is set back down. Two solid tubular links with pins on both ends would be way better. Just don't want to see somebody get hurt.

I'm also not trying to come off rude, but look back at your posting.

Which one were you refering to [in your last posting]
The postings by davejo? busted_knuckles? gazza? or jayz66ragtop?

If you ask a generic question ,expect a generic answer.
Until then, the laws of physics [especially gravity] have not changed.

 

[kerrynzl]

Yes this is still a potential issue. As built, the cylinder will hold the trailer tail on the ground until you get one axle up on it. The wheelbase and weight bias of a loaded vehicle will determine how much force gets placed on my contraption as the vehicle pulls onto the deck.

I need to figure out a way to activate the release valve remotely to let gravity take over as the load moves forward. I have another power unit with solenoids that control the ups and downs. I see the hydraulic trailer shown above has a long lanyard and switch that one carries along in the cargo vehicle to control the valve. I'd like some sort of wireless solution.

My bellcrank assembly, pivots and the leaf spring push rods are definitely cobby. I just started scrounging around to play with the geometry. I used graph paper to work out my lever ratios and i'll see if I can calculate potential loads on my pushrods.

I've seen that work with a scissor action mechanism that locks out slightly over centre [and is spring loaded]
When the payload is at the extreme rear it pulls the front up and straightens the "scissor stays" , and the spring flips it out of over centre allowing it to return down.

a simple gas strut is simpler.

 

[Sycan]

I'm also not trying to come off rude, but look back at your posting.

Which one were you refering to [in your last posting]
The postings by davejo? busted_knuckles? gazza? or jayz66ragtop?

If you ask a generic question ,expect a generic answer.
Until then, the laws of physics [especially gravity] have not changed.

I was quoting you, there is the potential for several thousand pounds depending on the load. That style of tilt is way different than a trailer that the tongue and axles stay flat and the bed tilts, this style the whole center raises. But thanks for the tip on gravity. I'm just trying to use my experience to make sure the OP isn't caught in a bad place if this fails. It should be built heavy enough to drive a machine that weighs what ever the trailer can haul all the way forward and then get out and lower the trailer