Time to put in the perma-columns...

[gjbuilder]

At long last, our custom built 9" x 9" perma-columns, 7 feet long, will be delivered on Monday.

I am mating them to 8x8 rough dimension columns that have rotted at the bottom.

Some tactical questions about their installation ...


First, how can we hold the 700 lb concrete columns up to the bottom of the wooden column ? We need to put them down in the hole, and then raise them back up to mate with the bottom of the wooden column ... and we need to hold it in place for 24 hours while the concrete we pour under it cures.

Anything we use to hold it up (chains, etc.) have to be sacrificed, since we pour concrete down in there and entomb the chains. Not a huge loss, but ... is there some better way to do this ? I honestly have *no idea* how we're going to lift those up onto the bottom of the wooden column and hold it in place while the concrete cures.


Second, is there a "right" way to orient them ? Every picture I see has the steel brackets perpendicular to the wall, like this:

http://garages-n-more.com/wp-content/gallery/post-protection-gallery/img_2193.jpg

... makes sense to me, as I feel like they are stronger that way- it would be hard to bend one over against the long edge of the steel, but I can imagine bending one over by folding the steel ... does that look like the strongest orientation ?


Thanks.

 

[readhead]

Why would you have to sacrifice chains or straps? Pull them up with a come -a -long. Bolt them to the post and remove the lifting stuff. You might want to put some extra support on the post to help with the weight.

 

[North Run Grader]

Blocking pile on either side 2-3 feet away to allow access. 2x6's on edge perpendicular with a bolt hole to accept a through bolt. Depending on weight you may need larger timber or steel and more bolts. It'll be a short span and only temporary I'm sure wiser minds then mine will supply the needed figures. I don't think I would suspend them solely off the existing poles though, buildings are engineered with Gravity in mind.

 

[NUTTSGT]

If I came across a situation like this, I'd consider something but I don't know it the perma-column company would approve.

I'd weld 2-3 chain links on each side of the steel bracket. This you a place to hook on with chains and hoist/skidsteer/backhoe and move them into place. Once you get them in to place, they also provide a place to hold them in place with a cable or another chain.

How many are you planning on putting in place at a time and pouring concrete ? One a day, a few at a time or all in a day ?

 

[theoldwizard1]

The Perma-Column company recommends 2 different methods.

Perma-Column Post Repair

Sturdi-Wall Plus Post Repair

 

[gjbuilder]

Why would you have to sacrifice chains or straps? Pull them up with a come -a -long. Bolt them to the post and remove the lifting stuff. You might want to put some extra support on the post to help with the weight.

The problem is, what happens to that section of my barn when suddenly 700+ pounds is hanging *down* on the column ? It doesn't sound good to me ...

The barn and its timbers are very very strong, but they are all built and designed to have downward load resting on the column ... and now that column that they all depend on not only has nothing under it, but has 700 pounds of weight pulling in the wrong direction.

So for this reason, I plan to mate the perma-columns upwards to the wooden columns ... and not let them go until the concrete underneath cures.

But if you wait for the concrete to cure, whatever is down the hole to hold them up is encased in concrete.

 

[gjbuilder]

The Perma-Column company recommends 2 different methods.

Perma-Column Post Repair

Sturdi-Wall Plus Post Repair

Yes - the relevant one to our application is the first one - the post repair, and the key part of the process is this step:

https://www.permacolumn.com/tools/p...3148/Replacement_Step_10.jpg&w=400&h=300&zc=C

... the problem is, our perma-columns are not 4 foot tall ones like they have - they are 7 feet tall, and we are cutting our posts much lower - at 6" above original ground.

So it's 6'6" down and we can't just sit next to it and guide it like you see them doing there.

 

[Milton Shaw]

I would make sure you use a ******** on the pours to make sure you get all the concrete next to the column and under them. HF has some cheap vibrators with about a 5-6 foot vibrating hose. They will compact the concrete for a lot more strength. You will be shocked at how much more concrete some will take after you start vibrating.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The barn and its timbers are very very strong, but they are all built and designed to have downward load resting on the column ... and now that column that they all depend on not only has nothing under it, but has 700 pounds of weight pulling in the wrong direction.

Lag a couple of 4x4 to the girt or better under the top cross piece half way between the posts either side of the post being replaced.

So for this reason, I plan to mate the perma-columns upwards to the wooden columns ... and not let them go until the concrete underneath cures.

But if you wait for the concrete to cure, whatever is down the hole to hold them up is encased in concrete.

Not the best solution, but I would say either

• Position the perma-column in the hole. Partially backfill with gravel in stages. First just enough to support the bottom of the column and position it where is needs to be making sure you tamp it down with a 2x4. Then add another 4-8" of gravel and tamp that down making sure that it is aligned with the post above. Connect it to the post and then pout concrete.
• Same concept, but do 2 concrete pours. The first pour should be up to about 1' above the bottom of the perma-column while it is being held up. You have to let this set long enough for it to hold the weight of the column while it is aligned with the post above. Then you can do the second half of the pour, which might be the following day

 

[dreamingmuscle]

Huh, support the beams or timbers on either side of the old post with a couple of 4x4s. Thier not holding it up forever. So they don't have to be very substantial. Bolt your columns to the old post pour and vibrate the concrete into the hole. Remove temp post when the concrete cures.

Glen

 

[Bondo]

The problem is, what happens to that section of my barn when suddenly 700+ pounds is hanging *down* on the column ? It doesn't sound good to me ...

The barn and its timbers are very very strong, but they are all built and designed to have downward load resting on the column ... and now that column that they all depend on not only has nothing under it, but has 700 pounds of weight pulling in the wrong direction.

So for this reason, I plan to mate the perma-columns upwards to the wooden columns ... and not let them go until the concrete underneath cures.

But if you wait for the concrete to cure, whatever is down the hole to hold them up is encased in concrete.

Ayuh,.... Why are ya diggin' the hole so deep,..??

Frost can't be more than 4' or 5' deep,.....

Just adjust the bottom of the hole to match the precast, then pour whatever ya think is needed,....

 

[theoldwizard1]

Huh, support the beams or timbers on either side of the old post with a couple of 4x4s. Thier not holding it up forever.

Screw a piece of 2x4x6" to both sides of the post being dug out. Then you have a place to "jam" the 4x4 that dreamingmuscle is taking about. Just make sure your 4x4 is long enough to angle out well past the width of the hole.

 

[gjbuilder]

Ayuh,.... Why are ya diggin' the hole so deep,..??

Frost can't be more than 4' or 5' deep,.....

Just adjust the bottom of the hole to match the precast, then pour whatever ya think is needed,....

No frost. Seismic. Barn is 3 miles or so from san andreas fault.

Original timber columns were put 8 feet into the ground and we were given approval from engineer to replace with 6.5 foot in the ground concrete columns (perma columns, in this case).

 

[Daniel Dudley]

Dig the holes as big and wide as you need. If you need to rent a machine, do it. Get yourself set up properly, and the rest will be easy. If you need a stepped hole to partially climb in there to deal with the joints, do it.

 

[Bondo]

No frost. Seismic. Barn is 3 miles or so from san andreas fault.

Original timber columns were put 8 feet into the ground and we were given approval from engineer to replace with 6.5 foot in the ground concrete columns (perma columns, in this case).

At long last, our custom built 9" x 9" perma-columns, 7 feet long, will be delivered on Monday.

Ayuh,..... So dig the hole to match the length,.....

The concrete yer gonna pour is to increase the diameter(load bearin' ability), not the depth,....

 

[gjbuilder]

Ok, I figured it out.

Look at the perma-columns - specifically, the metal bracket on top. Notice how tall it is ? I think they are 18" tall brackets.

It would be no problem to temporarily bend that 18" long piece of 1/4 steel 1/2 inch in either direction ... it has that much play in it and the bottom of the bracket doesn't move at all.

So, get a bolt, insert the bolt pointing inward into the flange, but only insert it 1/2 inch, and then screw on a nut. Now the perma column has handles that you can use to pick it up - the handles are the bolt sticking outwards.

We can also mate it to the wood column with the "handles" in place, since we just need to temporarily push the bracket open an extra 1" total.

Then, because we put the bolts in pointing inward, we can just unscrew the nut, the nut drops out, and we pull the 1/2 inch of bolt out and we're all done.

 

[rburke65]

I'm thinking "theoldwizard1" has the idea

 

[jack stand]

Curious why you wouldn't just excavate, pour footer, sono tube up to existing post, backfill, pour, and "wet dip" perma comumn bracket, lag to post? and if you needed to, rebar up out of the footer into the sono tube.
Not being a smart azz, we just don't have the earthquake concerns here.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Curious why you wouldn't just excavate, pour footer, sono tube up to existing post, backfill, pour, and "wet dip" perma comumn bracket, lag to post?

I don't think they make sono tubes that tall (7-8') !

 

[gjbuilder]

Curious why you wouldn't just excavate, pour footer, sono tube up to existing post, backfill, pour, and "wet dip" perma comumn bracket, lag to post? and if you needed to, rebar up out of the footer into the sono tube.
Not being a smart azz, we just don't have the earthquake concerns here.

That's the big question and what everyone asks when they go down the perma-column route.

The answer is, a pole structure depends on columns buried into the ground and the "flagpole" effect that they create - that's where the strength comes from.

If you chop your poles and just bolt them into a pier, you lose all of that...

 

[jack stand]

I don't think they make sono tubes that tall (7-8') !

Even the cheaper "Builder tube" comes in 12' legnths. The more "serious", commercial lines from Sonotube are a lot longer than that. But your right, at most of the harry homeowner big box stores, about 6' is all you can find.