Timing lights

[OctaneMotorsports]

Is there a big difference in these from brand to brand, or do they all pretty much do the same thing?

This is for an old 60's four-cylinder with points ignition.

I'm not looking for Harbor Freight type stuff, just something fairly good in the $100 range.

 

[goodfellow]

Not and expert on timing lights, but for 60's and 70's tune-ups you can still get some very good equipment at a fraction of the original price

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Sun-...018QQitemZ280185020856QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

The SUN timing light is a good example.

 

[OctaneMotorsports]

Are there different timing lights for points and modern ignitions?

 

[ImportTuner]

Are there different timing lights for points and modern ignitions?

Timing lights are for older vehicles with distributors ... modern ignitions used COP (coil on plugs) and engine timing advance is controlled by the ECM/ECU so it is not adjustable.

 

[Chris Adams]

There are different eras of timing.

The old Kettering (points) ignitions were fully adjustable. The mid range, 72-90's ignitions often had adjustments, though they were virtually all electronic. Many you were not supposed to adjust but you could.
Example CCC and CCCC GM ignitions were quite adjustable.

A GOOD timing light will have 'dial to back to zero' capabilities.

On electronic ignitions you can use the timing light to set the initial timing, which is then adjusted on the fly by the ignition control module.
Later cars often have fixed timing, thus no adjustment. This started in the 80's and became more and more common.
Still later many cars went to Coil Over plug or other variants that don't even have distributors. For your purposes these you would consider non-adjustable.

I use a Jacobs’s ignition timing light with dial back, but I've had it for so many years I couldn't say what they sell for.
Any timing light worth putting in the tool box will have
1. Two wires that hook to positive and negative on the battery.
2. An 'induction' connector for the spark plug wire. This will go around the wire itself and not require pulling or even, God Forbid, piercing the wire.
Any unit that doesn't meet those two requirements toss in the trash.
Extra goodies
3. Dial back to zero. Used by people who actually know what they are doing, and
4. Built in light. This helps to see the timing marks.

 

[Fedwrench]

We use our old timing light in conjunction with an electronic vibration analyzer (EVA) to pinpoint vibrations on rotating pulleys.

 

[Rickster]

Yea, the old timing lights had no set back dial and had a spring lead that you clipped to the spark plug and then attached the plug wire over it. Second generation version came with an inductive pick-up that you just clip over the wire. The dial set back models are hard to come by used but I have several of the standard timing lights with inductive pick-ups. I think I have an extra Sun and Craftsman, let me know with a PM if you're interested in buying a used one.

 

[Jbullfrog]

Check your local pawn shop(s) for a used timing light. I got my Snap-On digital for $50 with the case and books. It has a tach and can be adjusted for advance. It was $200 off the truck when I picked it up.

I have an old neon timing light that goes on the plug and the distributor and flashes from the spark. It is nice for small engines and magneto ignitions on 2-cylinders.

 

[OctaneMotorsports]

Basically this is for an old 1.2L Volkswagen H-4 (air-cooled, from a Beetle). I know how to do it, I just don't know what kind of timing light I need. Some good info though, thanks.

 

[Red Green]

I have this timing light it should work for you I think

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...cName=Mechanics+Tools&sbf=Brand&sbv=Craftsman


the page says "Durable, 6 ft. test leads are melt-resistant" well they don't hold up if you have them laying directly on the header :tard:

 

[Danglerb]

Cheap timing lights are so dim they can only be used in the middle of moonless nights away from major cities.

The HF is worthless junk.

I ended up with a $50 something from Kragen on sale. Inductive pickup makes it handy to trouble shoot any spark issues, which is why I bought it, and I found a bad coil that otherwise tested fine.

If I had it to do again, I would buy used and pick up a nicer unit with the dial back and tach functions.

 

[vmo]

For the old volkswagen motors, all you need is a test light. You set the timing with the engine not running, and all you care about is when the points open. It's been a long time, but I remember it as being very easy. Hope this helps.

Dusty

 

[bmwpower]

Cheap timing lights are so dim they can only be used in the middle of moonless nights away from major cities.

The HF is worthless junk.

I ended up with a $50 something from Kragen on sale. Inductive pickup makes it handy to trouble shoot any spark issues, which is why I bought it, and I found a bad coil that otherwise tested fine.

If I had it to do again, I would buy used and pick up a nicer unit with the dial back and tach functions.

Need more info on this and how you used it to troubleshoot.

 

[OldCarGuy]

I purchased the timing light on the right nearly 50 years ago and has served me well since! It has only two leads with alligator clips that are put in series with a spark plug wire. It puts out a dim yellow light and complete darkness is a must. You almost need a flashlight to see if the timing light is working LOL….

I purchased the shiny Sears Penske induction type timing some 40 years ago and is a tremendous improvement. You can use it in broad daylight as it gives off a brilliant white light. It’s not necessary to remove any wires on the car. However it needs to be attached to a 12 Volt power source. Unfortunately most my cars are older than 1950 and have 12 Volt batteries. So most the time I pull out the old trusty timing light. Unless I have a 12 Volt battery handy…

 

[MAD]

Basically this is for an old 1.2L Volkswagen H-4 (air-cooled, from a Beetle). I know how to do it, I just don't know what kind of timing light I need. Some good info though, thanks.

Any modern timing light will work. They are backwardly compatible so you do not need to get any sort of "old school" timing light. You just need to decide which features you want. On this engine you can use a home made static timing/test light and feeler gauge, the latest digital timing light and automotive multi-meter, or anything in between.

If everything (distributor, pulley, points) is bone stock you can either static time it with just a 12v (or 6v) test light or use a basic strobe. I would not bother with any strobe timing light that did not have an inductive pickup clamp and xenon lamp. Just about any new timing light should have these features but some old ones that you may find on the used market used neon lamps (dim) and some timing lights may not have the inductive clamp (PITA).


I would get a timing light with an adjustable advance feature if you are running or plan to run a non stock distributor like a Bosch 009. With these you time to the maximum advance desired instead of setting it at idle. If you do not have an advance feature on the light you need to replace the pulley with a degree wheel pulley or make new marks on your old pulley. With the adjustable advance you can time everything off the TDC mark. This is also a help if you engine has the wrong stock pulley with the wrong timing mark on it. I would definitely get this feature given the $100 price range you mentioned since the adjustable advance also lets you accurately check spark advance (centrifugal, vacuum or computer controlled) on engines ancient to modern.

I have the Craftsman model Red Green linked to. These are made by Actron and are also available Branded with the Actron name.

I have this timing light it should work for you I think

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...cName=Mechanics+Tools&sbf=Brand&sbv=Craftsman


the page says "Durable, 6 ft. test leads are melt-resistant" well they don't hold up if you have them laying directly on the header :tard:

The tach feature on the latest digital timing lights is very nice to have but I have always used a separate tach. You do not even need a tach if the basic timing is set at idle speed on the particular engine you may be working on.


If you are going to run you engine with points you may also want to get a meter that reads dwell angle. This is a lot more accurate way to adjust your points than just gapping them with a feeler gauge. The old analog tach/dwell/volt meters are often very cheap on the used market. Many of the modern digital automotive meters still have dwell as well.

There are also drop in electronic ignition modules that will replace the points in your distributor altogether. These are great and not very expensive ($50- $75). Pertronix and Compufire are the brands I am familiar with. These are well worth the money for the payoff in performance, reliability, and time savings they provide.

http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor/default.aspx

http://www.compufire.com/vw-products-main.html

 

[Chris Adams]

Basically this is for an old 1.2L Volkswagen H-4 (air-cooled, from a Beetle). I know how to do it, I just don't know what kind of timing light I need. Some good info though, thanks.

None of the above.
VW distributors from the old days had too much centrifugal advance set into them to set with the engine running.
If it’s a later distributor, or aftermarket, you may be able to set them with a normal timing light.


Look up 'static' timing lights.

I have one that you plug into the distributor cap, then rotate the distributor till it flashes (when the points open. At the same time you observe the timing mark in relation to the split in the case.

Any manual on the 1200 air cooled gives you better instructions, I haven’t set one in about 20-25 years.

You do it with the engine NOT running, unlike all the regular timing lights.

The one I have is a Hawk, an old cheap brand, but about anything that will flash when it the points 'break' will do the trick.

 

[BrianAltenhofel]

Need more info on this and how you used it to troubleshoot.

I had the same type of problem on my Intrepid. Coils tested fine, but I could tell that one cylinder wasn't firing. Turned out I had a bad wire. Yeah, I know, I could've just licked my finger and stuck it to the ends of the wires (like when in a pinch at the track), but the timing light was there. I couldn't get a flash from the light since no electricity was coming down the wire due to it not making a good connection to ground. Yeah yeah, plugs wire don't cost much, but I'd rather be able to know for sure if I need to drive 15 miles to buy new ones (or in this case, return the set I just bought) than throw parts (and good money that could be used on the other car) at it.

 

[OctaneMotorsports]

The VW engine is in a race car.

The previous owner showed me how to do it, always with the engine running at 3,000 or so RPM (maybe 3,500, I forget). It is common practice, I guess it is aftermarket stuff.

 

[MAD]

None of the above.
VW distributors from the old days had too much centrifugal advance set into them to set with the engine running.

I do not believe this is true at least for 1961 and later 40 hp 1200s. I believe these came with vacuum advance only distributors with no centrifugal advance at all. I have never worked on any of the 36 hp and older VWs from the 1950s so I can't say this is true for them. As far as I know it is fine to time the 40 hp 1200 engines with a strobe or static.

 

[MAD]

The VW engine is in a race car.

The previous owner showed me how to do it, always with the engine running at 3,000 or so RPM (maybe 3,500, I forget). It is common practice, I guess it is aftermarket stuff.

It probably has a Bosch 009 distributor (all centrifugal advance). These are best timed with a strobe by revving the engine to the point where the maximum advance is achieved and then adjusting the distributor to the desired amount of advance (28-32 degrees depending on the engine and conditions).

 

[Chris Adams]

I do not believe this is true at least for 1961 and later 40 hp 1200s. I believe these came with vacuum advance only distributors with no centrifugal advance at all. I have never worked on any of the 36 hp and older VWs from the 1950s so I can't say this is true for them. As far as I know it is fine to time the 40 hp 1200 engines with a strobe or static.

Aftermarket distributers change the whole game, of course.

Static timing only on stock 63,64,68 (1200, and 1500) engines.
They had centrifugal and vacuum advance distributers from the factory.

Had those years ,bugs, then baja bugs then Meyer's Manx.

We are talking old here... but they were fairly new when I drove them...

 

[MAD]

Aftermarket distributers change the whole game, of course.

Static timing only on stock 63,64,68 (1200, and 1500) engines.
They had centrifugal and vacuum advance distributers from the factory.

Had those years ,bugs, then baja bugs then Meyer's Manx.

We are talking old here... but they were fairly new when I drove them...

Well I was probably peeing on the seats of my dad's beetles and split window bus when you were driving your VWs, but I still think I am correct. The Air cooled ones I have owned have been a little newer than those but I have tuned a few of that vintage as well. I am sure yours ran fine static timed but there is no reason why you can't time the models you mention with a strobe at the proper idle speed and the vacuum advance hose pulled and plugged.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I purchased the timing light on the right nearly 50 years ago and has served me well since! It has only two leads with alligator clips that are put in series with a spark plug wire. It puts out a dim yellow light and complete darkness is a must. You almost need a flashlight to see if the timing light is working LOL….

I purchased the shiny Sears Penske induction type timing some 40 years ago and is a tremendous improvement. You can use it in broad daylight as it gives off a brilliant white light. It’s not necessary to remove any wires on the car. However it needs to be attached to a 12 Volt power source. Unfortunately most my cars are older than 1950 and have 12 Volt batteries. So most the time I pull out the old trusty timing light. Unless I have a 12 Volt battery handy…

I have both of the same lights you have, the old neon light, my dad bought it probably in the late '40's, with the metal box is goes in, and the same Sears Penske induction light, that dad and I bought later on when I was doing lots of work on cars. I also have a slightly earlier version of the Penske light, that has the tapered coil spring that fits over the plug and then the plug wire pushes on it, and the light lead has a clip that clips on it, otherwise the "gun" oart of it is identical to the later induction light.

I can use them on a 6v system by pulling the riding lawn mower up next to the tractor or other 6v vehicle and using the lawn mower for power, and clipping the induction pickup on the one I am timing.

Charles

 

[MAD]

None of the above.
VW distributors from the old days had too much centrifugal advance set into them to set with the engine running.
.

I do not believe this is true at least for 1961 and later 40 hp 1200s. I believe these came with vacuum advance only distributors with no centrifugal advance at all. I have never worked on any of the 36 hp and older VWs from the 1950s so I can't say this is true for them. As far as I know it is fine to time the 40 hp 1200 engines with a strobe or static.

Aftermarket distributers change the whole game, of course.

Static timing only on stock 63,64,68 (1200, and 1500) engines.
They had centrifugal and vacuum advance distributers from the factory.

Had those years ,bugs, then baja bugs then Meyer's Manx.

We are talking old here... but they were fairly new when I drove them...

Well I was probably peeing on the seats of my dad's beetles and split window bus when you were driving your VWs, but I still think I am correct. The Air cooled ones I have owned have been a little newer than those but I have tuned a few of that vintage as well. I am sure yours ran fine static timed but there is no reason why you can't time the models you mention with a strobe at the proper idle speed and the vacuum advance hose pulled and plugged.

I found a fairly comprehensive resource for information on air cooled VW distributors. It looks like the information you gave may be based on the old 36 and 25 HP pre-1961 models but is not correct for the models you mentioned.

here is the link:http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A5560

Sorry to those of you that have no interest in old VWs for

 

[bmwpower]

I guess I'm gonna have to get one of these things for when I put the distributor back in the Previa I'm fixing. OldCarGuy, I'm you 40 years ago.

 

[bmwpower]

I have this timing light it should work for you I think

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...cName=Mechanics+Tools&sbf=Brand&sbv=Craftsman


the page says "Durable, 6 ft. test leads are melt-resistant" well they don't hold up if you have them laying directly on the header :tard:

What's the difference between the above gun and this one:

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921027000P

 

[MAD]

What's the difference between the above gun and this one:

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921027000P

That one does not have the advance dial. You can see the dial in this picture from the Actron site

 

[bmwpower]

That one does not have the advance dial. You can see the dial in this picture from the Actron site

What does that give me? (sorry, new school guy) ie, would I need it?

 

[MAD]

What does that give me? (sorry, new school guy) ie, would I need it?

I got by for many years without the advance feature but it is very handy to have. With a plain strobe you may be able to tell that your vacuum/centrifugal/computer controlled spark advance is working but it is easier to tell if you are getting the exact correct number of degrees of advance if you have the advance feature.

It is also great when an engine has confusing multiple timing marks or you suspect the pulley or flywheel may have been replaced with one that has the wrong marks on it. It is also good when deviating from the factory timing spec for certain high performance applications. You can often time the engine from the top dead center mark in these cases.

The Actron branded version is a better deal on Amazon with free shipping. I am pretty certain it is the same light. Made in USA(model CP7519) according to the Actron web site.

http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7519-Timing-Advance-Analyzer/dp/B00068OJTO

 

[bmwpower]

I got by for many years without the advance feature but it is very handy to have. With a plain strobe you may be able to tell that your vacuum/centrifugal/computer controlled spark advance is working but it is easier to tell if you are getting the exact correct number of degrees of advance if you have the advance feature.

It is also great when an engine has confusing multiple timing marks or you suspect the pulley or flywheel may have been replaced with one that has the wrong marks on it. It is also good when deviating from the factory timing spec for certain high performance applications. You can often time the engine from the top dead center mark in these cases.

The Actron branded version is a better deal on Amazon with free shipping. I am pretty certain it is the same light. Made in USA(model CP7519) according to the Actron web site.

http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7519-Timing-Advance-Analyzer/dp/B00068OJTO

That sounds like it's something you'd want. Several times we've had to time my friends Cobra with advance, but we used the other marks. Doing it thru the gun and using the main timing mark makes more sense.

 

[strizzy]

Ok, sense this thread is all over the place and I've been curious about the gun posted below; alright deal? I'm not looking for anything super fancy, but it would just be nice for setting idles for smooth shifts.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BSY9JE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[MAD]

Ok, sense this thread is all over the place and I've been curious about the gun posted below; alright deal? I'm not looking for anything super fancy, but it would just be nice for setting idles for smooth shifts.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BSY9JE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

That one is super fancy. It is digital, does advance, can do 2 cycle engines and has a tachometer built in. The down side - plastic, not USA made.

I personally would rather turn a big dial than scroll through a menu with buttons to dial in the advance but that is just me. Having the tach right on the gun is nice though.
http://www.actron.com/product_detail.php?pid=16315

 

[Danglerb]

I forget what I didn't like about Acton, but I bought the Equus 3551 Xenon Inductive Timing Light.

 

[Chris Adams]

I found a fairly comprehensive resource for information on air cooled VW distributors. It looks like the information you gave may be based on the old 36 and 25 HP pre-1961 models but is not correct for the models you mentioned.

here is the link:http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A5560

Sorry to those of you that have no interest in old VWs for

Notice the 1200 engines are normally set at static but if you have a tach (not stock in a VW, and fairly expensive back in the day, you don’t use a light.
The first VW with a 1300 (only 66) is the first one you normally set with a light.
We tried to time them with lights, but it didn’t work too well. The VW shops all used static and would not even talk to you about lights. There was centrifugal advance in the California (where I lived) bugs. Didn’t see them on the sight, but then, California is often ignored. All our emissions are different here most years.
.
My 63-64-65 bugs were all stock as a rock, but were California cars. Also, VW didn’t suggest a light until the 80’s in there shop manuals, which I have (I collect manuals)

Best part of old VW's was setting the lifters.
4 thousandths.
Unless it was 8 and 12.
Unless it was 4 on one bank and 8 and 12 on the other.
Really.
They came from VW all mixed up. There was supposed to be a sticker on the air shroud telling you, but the stickers fell off in about a week.
Sorry to hi-jack the thread.

 

[T56 Impala]

I purchased the timing light on the right nearly 50 years ago and has served me well since! It has only two leads with alligator clips that are put in series with a spark plug wire. It puts out a dim yellow light and complete darkness is a must. You almost need a flashlight to see if the timing light is working LOL….

I purchased the shiny Sears Penske induction type timing some 40 years ago and is a tremendous improvement. You can use it in broad daylight as it gives off a brilliant white light. It’s not necessary to remove any wires on the car. However it needs to be attached to a 12 Volt power source. Unfortunately most my cars are older than 1950 and have 12 Volt batteries. So most the time I pull out the old trusty timing light. Unless I have a 12 Volt battery handy…

That is the exact same light I have! Well, the case has long since been "misplaced". That is a great light. Super bright and has never failed me. (Am I really that old?)

 

[Uncle Buck]

Ok, sense this thread is all over the place and I've been curious about the gun posted below; alright deal? I'm not looking for anything super fancy, but it would just be nice for setting idles for smooth shifts.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BSY9JE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I think you should either take a look at the dialback model Sears has with the nice chrome metal housing, or PM Rickster here on the board, he has one for sale used. I have one of those models and it works as well as the Snap-on gun I have.

 

[JayL]

I forget what I didn't like about Acton, but I bought the Equus 3551 Xenon Inductive Timing Light.

Hi Danglerb,

Any updates on this Equus 3551. Was thinking to get the Actron CP7527 but looks like the tilting head of the Equus could be useful in some tight quarters.

I need only a basic timing light.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Danglerb]

Hi Danglerb,

Any updates on this Equus 3551. Was thinking to get the Actron CP7527 but looks like the tilting head of the Equus could be useful in some tight quarters.

I need only a basic timing light.

Thanks a lot.

That's what I thought, but in practice two features that add very little to the price are VERY handy, RPM display, and digital advance (when the spark occurs at the amount of advance you set in the gun the flash goes off at the TDC mark so its easy to see).

I still don't recall the Actron issue I didn't like. Don't buy the SnapOn even used they have a known bug with the advance setting or rpm, I forget which.

 

[JSGAuto]

The VW engine is in a race car.

What kind of race car? I am a Formula Vee owner.

 

[psychoclaw84]

I own a sears craftsman timing light with an inductive pickup and two power leads (pos & neg) which I purchased about 15 years ago.

Didn't purchase a light with a dial, not sure how to use the feature. I just use the timing light for verification after distributor and timing belt change and make fine adjustments (need a tach to adjust the proper engine speed to have the correct reading, only needed for adjustable idle speed).

A timing light is also good to check for timing chain stretch and/or tensioner slack. If the marker on the crank pulley moves (oscillates) then the chain is stretched. This applies to all cars that have access to the #1 spark plug wire.

I would think a timing light is a must for older ignition systems, such as cars manufactured in the 60's because they are designed with components that wear and need replacement on a frequent basis.

Purchase a timing light with a good bright bulb to ensure it can be seen during the daytime hours and with an inductive pickup. I would definitely recommend a sears craftsman model.