Tips for 6 inch drainage pvc

[05r50]

I need a little advice on installing some pvc drain pipe.

I have a 250 ft run on slope that leads to a creek where my runoff goes.

Thanks to my neighbor, I have to deal with his daily trickle of sump pump water which just lays in my swale.

I'm going to rent a trencher and install a collection box where the water enters my yard and then bury 6 inch solid pvc all the way to the creek.

My plan is to trench 12 inches or more.

My question is do I need to add any gravel to the ditch?

Originally there was 4" perforated corrugated pipe, but that has been crushed and filled with silt and plant roots. (Running the new trench away from the trees that interfered with the 4")



Thoughts?

 

[lewis26]

Why not just make your neighbor deal with his own water runoff?

 

[05r50]

Ohio law states that homeowners have the "right" to drain their land.

I've been to lawyers already. The state uses "reasonable use" doctrine so I have to bet my money on a judge the would say my right prevails over his.

It's a nightmare. If he was a good neighbor he would make a change to not impact me. But he is liberal university professor horses rear end that believes he is always in the right and owes me nothing.

I don't feel like spending $10k (lawyer
Estimate) for experts etc to get a $1,000 judgement.

 

[MrBalll]

Agreed.
Why should you spend your money to fix his problem?

Edit: just saw your newest post. Shame the state has it that way.

 

[kbs2244]

First, I would expect a 4 inch pipe would be enough

Second, I don’t know if they make it for PVC **** I have used a “sock” that goes over the outside of 4 inch black flex pipe to keep silt out when used as a drain pipe. I would think it would work on the PVC stuff as well.

You may want to talk to a septic guy. What you want to do is the opposite of what they do in a drain field. I would expect they suggest laying the pipe on a gravel bed with the holes on the bottom side.

BTW, "Low man gets the water" is a principle that goes back to Old English Law.

 

[05r50]

Thanks kbs.

Yea 4" should handle the sump water, but he also tiles his downspouts to the same exit point. A 1" rain creates a lot of water and it stands on my yard.

The new pipe will be in the bottom of the swale I had put in last year to correct this. It works in a storm, but a slow constant low volume like a sump doesn't have enough energy to make it 250 feet to my creek.

 

[BonzoHansen]

Build a new swale that pushes the water into his yard.

Watching, I need to do draining in my side yard this fall.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

I need a little advice on installing some pvc drain pipe.

I have a 250 ft run on slope that leads to a creek where my runoff goes.

Thanks to my neighbor, I have to deal with his daily trickle of sump pump water which just lays in my swale.

I'm going to rent a trencher and install a collection box where the water enters my yard and then bury 6 inch solid pvc all the way to the creek.

My plan is to trench 12 inches or more.

My question is do I need to add any gravel to the ditch?

Originally there was 4" perforated corrugated pipe, but that has been crushed and filled with silt and plant roots. (Running the new trench away from the trees that interfered with the 4")



Thoughts?

It appears you are not collecting water with this 6 in. line so, no need in putting rock around it as it will not be perforated for colection. Just be mindful of your backfill and the size of rocks that get pushed back in the trench.

 

[kd3pc]

You need to be careful about draining this in to a creek.., any creek or water or wetland. Even the small localities are being forced/coerced in to enforcing Fed laws, enacted by EPA

 

[Breacher74]

For your situation, if you are not using perforated PVC pipe gravel backfill is not necessary. Just backfill with clean fill with no large rocks or organic material (remove from the trenched material before backfill). What is important is installing the pipe with an adequate slope on the pipe. A 6" PVC pipe laid at 1% slope would provide a flow capacity of 0.81 cubic feet per second at full flow with a flow velocity of 4.13 feet per second. Much steeper than that, the velocity at outlet would be getting up there and may cause bank erosion at the outlet. It would be advisable to place riprap (crushed aggregate, stone or concrete) at the outlet end to reduce chances of bank erosion. Place riprap no higher than the flow line of the outlet pipe down to a depth of 1.5 ft. It is important to install the riprap flush (not above the flow line) of the outlet pipe elevation. Riprap width should be at least 2 times the diameter of the pipe (1 ft in this case).

Happy trenching.

 

[bowhuntr311]

I agree with the above ^^^^

I would just make sure you have a good slope the whole way and rip rap your exit pipe. Sorry about your neighbor, makes people with good neighbors appreciate them a little more.

 

[tarmy]

I happen to own a civil engineering firm...and deal with kind of "discharge" issue all the time. Your approach, while noble, is probably the second best choice.

He is creating a forced discharge of pumped (lifted I am assuming), water that is creating a wetland (in essence) on your land. He has an obligation to control that manmade discharge...either on his land or via a suitable discharge conveyance method. You being either down stream or hill from his discharge point makes him liable for the discharge on your property.

Damages to your land value due to hazards or creating a nuisance or wetland on your property could be enough for him to stop the offence.

So...you have a choice...fix it yourself via some method that will be interpreted by any court or future buyer of your and or his site as an accepted condition. Or confront him with an educated lawyer and or civil engineer.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

Skipped over reading post eh, # 3 tarmstrong ?

 

[xyster101]

Perforated pipe collects water and is placed in stone.
Solid pipe moves water and canbe buried with clean fill.
Perforated pipes have holes that attract roots and silt. You can put landscape fabric down, the stone,pipe,more stone to keep silt out but roots always find water.
Clog the end of neighbors pipe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tarmy]

Skipped over reading post eh, # 3 tarmstrong ?

Nope...just pointing out the the wetland issue is Federal...not state. The Corps becomes the permitting agency for discharge into any wetlands...and pumped water is a controllable and controlled function.

Two weeks of hydric soil classifies it as jurisdictional wetlands...which is why the OP should look into either preventing further discharge...or getting the neighbor to compensate for damage.

There are some basic tennants of water rules and rights/obligations that tend to align between the state rules and feds. I am not an expert in Ohio...but the typical "rights"of discharge do not allow harm to be caused downstream of the discharge point...especially concentrated flow.

Hence the recommendation that he seek a lawyer or civil in the area to assist and advise.

 

[LXCam]

Good luck OP I hope you get this worked out. I flow a total of 3 acres through my front yard. When I built a entire new yard I spent a small fortune accommodating this issue and installed a bunch of 6" plus catch basins. Not long after I got done, my ******** neighbor regraded his lot and screwed everything up I did. I ended up burming that side where it most impacted me but still during ********* rains end up with a mess. Personally, I'd create a damn so it stays in his yard.

 

[Flail]

Had an issue where I had a soggy yard. While trenching near the fence line I found perf pipes with stinky water coming into my yard from the neighbors! Amazing how a gym sock filled with bentonite and shoved 12 feet up the perf pipe dried up my yard. Otherwise building a berm on your neighbors side and running some vertical plastic sheeting in it can really slow the flow.

 

[theoldwizard1]

First, I would expect a 4 inch pipe would be enough

Second, I don’t know if they make it for PVC **** I have used a “sock” that goes over the outside of 4 inch black flex pipe to keep silt out when used as a drain pipe. I would think it would work on the PVC stuff as well.

Have you priced out 6" versus 4" pipe ?

The corrugated flex pipe will hold silt so I would never use it. Any drainage pipe with holes/slits needs a sock !

 

[theoldwizard1]

Nope...just pointing out the the wetland issue is Federal...not state. The Corps becomes the permitting agency for discharge into any wetlands...and pumped water is a controllable and controlled function.

Two weeks of hydric soil classifies it as jurisdictional wetlands...which is why the OP should look into either preventing further discharge...or getting the neighbor to compensate for damage.

I am sure you know what you are talking about, but getting the Corp involved and likely a legal battle would take years.

If the soil is clay, a trench lined with commercial grade landscape cloth and gravel/crushed concrete and then the cloth folded in before back fill will move a lot of water, admittedly not fast.

 

[ishiboo]

Nope...just pointing out the the wetland issue is Federal...not state. The Corps becomes the permitting agency for discharge into any wetlands...and pumped water is a controllable and controlled function.

Two weeks of hydric soil classifies it as jurisdictional wetlands...which is why the OP should look into either preventing further discharge...or getting the neighbor to compensate for damage.

There are some basic tennants of water rules and rights/obligations that tend to align between the state rules and feds. I am not an expert in Ohio...but the typical "rights"of discharge do not allow harm to be caused downstream of the discharge point...especially concentrated flow.

Hence the recommendation that he seek a lawyer or civil in the area to assist and advise.

Lol. Sump pump runoff into a yard is not going to qualify that area of yard as a federally-protected wetland... and why would you want it to? Would only complicate the matters.

As he already knows, it is cheaper to deal with the situation than to deal with attorneys/etc... and that's with his local court system, ignoring how much more of a pain it would be to deal with in federal court.

As long as it's not in a municipality that would deal with this, I think handling the issue has already been found to be the way to go.

 

[ambenz]

I have the same issue on my property as my uphill neighbor has runoff streaming to my property. The existing 4" clay tile failed so I dug it up and replaced it with green 4"drain PVC. Runs 130' to the street ditch in front of the house along my property line. The neighbor next door also drains his downspouts in my drain run so having an extra 2" in pipe diameter is never a bad thing....add drains along the run. I used nonperf pipe and no rock, just fill. Multiple rain inlets.

 

[sands35]

I would put in two lines. One is for surface collection and solid pipe. The second is PVC perf pipe. Both would run to a dry well away from the impacted area, but short of the creek.

A dry well is basically a fully buried open bottom barrel sitting on top of a crushed rock load. The less absorbent the ground, the more gravel and the bigger the barrel needs to be. If the ground slopes enough, you could just have the pipes go to daylight and dump onto a rip-rap pad to prevent local erosion.

You may want to make some discrete "hypothetical" calls to your local zoning board or an engineering firm. Dumping water, even surface water, into a creek can create a lot more problems than it's worth.

 

[strutaeng]

If it's just a trickle of water, then 4" SDR 35 is what I would use, assuming you have a 1% slope difference between inlet and discharge. I would not recommend the corrugated stuff if you are staying there for the long run because it can clog and augering it destroys it.

A 6" line is much, much more expensive than 4". The advantage is that it can be installed at a less slope. It doesn't sound like you need 6".

As for fill, excavated material is fine, unless it has a lot of rock. If you look at most technical installation literature, they state that there needs to be a minimum of sand bed around the pipe. See pages 11-12:

http://www.royalbuildingproducts.co...r_Heavy_Wall_Fittings/M_GskSewerPipe_IGV3.pdf

Good Luck

 

[ddawg16]

Nope...just pointing out the the wetland issue is Federal...not state. The Corps becomes the permitting agency for discharge into any wetlands...and pumped water is a controllable and controlled function.

Two weeks of hydric soil classifies it as jurisdictional wetlands...which is why the OP should look into either preventing further discharge...or getting the neighbor to compensate for damage.

There are some basic tennants of water rules and rights/obligations that tend to align between the state rules and feds. I am not an expert in Ohio...but the typical "rights"of discharge do not allow harm to be caused downstream of the discharge point...especially concentrated flow.

Hence the recommendation that he seek a lawyer or civil in the area to assist and advise.

Key point right there.

What it boils down to....he is 'pumping' water onto your land and causing a problem.

If it was me, instead of a lawyer (and it sounds like your's *****), I'd be talking to the county.

 

[tarmy]

A couple of folks have called me out on my take...fair enough. All I Was pointing out is a different way to look at OPs issue.

Me, I tend to just fix things that bug me to my satisfaction, which is what I may do here.

BUT..I have found that small amounts of water over a long period of time can turn into wetland problems or liquifaction issues. And yes, the Feds do regulate down to very small areas that can attact species they tend to like to protect. I wouldn't go running to the feds...but they look for these issues via aerial photos of land to identify habitat.

So the amount of water isn't the issue..it is that it is ******* off the OP...and it could become a bigger problem.

 

[ddawg16]

Tarm.....I'm on your side.

What it basically boils down to....a person has a right to 'protect' his/her property but they can't do it to the detriment of another person. In other words, you have a right to remove the trash from your place...but you can't dump it on your neighbors place.

 

[Firebrick43]

Don't you have a county drainage board? Around here an issue like this would not need any lawyers. The drainage board would come look at the issue. The neighbor has a right to drainage through your property (but no pump it out onto the surface) but the county would charge the neighbor a percentage of the tile or drainage system depending on area drained for each party. And the county has the means to collect.

 

[05r50]

It's been a while since I was on the site and wanted to provide an update. If you recall my original post was for proper installation of the 6 inch drain pipe. Thanks much for all the responses.

While there are many good points about the legality of the situation, I've been down this road for years. There is one recourse. Court. No other local or state board or government group to swoop in and claim jurisdiction. However, if you find yourself in a similar situation, take the time to learn the law and seek professional advice even if it costs you a few dollars.

I did consult a water rights specialist law firm. Paid them good money and they explained that the law of Ohio is "best use" because that is how the law was written; full of ambiguity. So spend money to fight and maybe lose to a judge that thinks its no big deal, or get on with life. Besides, nothing says I can't sue for damages after the fact.

For the record, the neighbor in question is not uphill or upstream from me. Topographically he actually sits lower and has to have an outdoor lift station to collect curtain drain water and keep it from flooding his leech field. That gets pumped into a private line the developer put in, and carries across my land to my private ditch runoff.


OK. Now for the fix. With the help of some good friends they came in with their bobcat and I rented a trencher attachment. With the slope of the yard it was easy to get the fall needed to drain the water. I went with the 6" pipe, 1 12" drain box and 2 6" drain grates along the surface just to grab any excess run that might happen in a major rain. Ended up using 270' of pipe and a few connections.

The 12" drain box sits below grade of the existing driveway pipe which brings the water onto my yard. So far it works perfect to catch his hourly dump of sump water. And in the rains we have had since the install, it keeps up nice just like a running faucet and connected drain.

Here is a few pics of the project.

 

[machsnell]

Well done nice work

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[AndyA]

The neighbor's discharge pipe runs across your land??? Does he have an easement? If not, I'd consider cutting and capping his pipe where it enters your land.

 

[kbs2244]

If it is fixed, it is fixed.
Just keep your PICs in case of any future need.

 

[BADSIX]

I think I would have put a couple of clean outs here and there. it depends on your soil but if you had trouble with silting you my have it again even with smooth pipe.
Jay D.

 

[NUTTSGT]

FWIW, you may some type of cover over the end to keep the varmits out of it.

 

[Firebrick43]

Nothing ***** more than try to poke a dead bloated muskrat out of a drainage pipe plugged by it!

 

[Farmall450]

The neighbor's discharge pipe runs across your land??? Does he have an easement? If not, I'd consider cutting and capping his pipe where it enters your land.

I thought this was 'Murica!

 

[toyotadriver]

The OP did the right thing. If you get the lawyers involved in something simple like this all that ends up happening is that they get richer, you get poorer, and you might not even win. With what the OP did, yes it cost him some money but it looks like it's fixed now....which is all that really matters.....and that means the OP won.

 

[kbs2244]

When I did mine I was concerned about critters going up the open end.
After 4years I have found that with the constant outflow of a sump pump and downspouts they look elsewhere.

 

[05r50]

Yea, I did put in clean outs thru the run and a varmit guard.

I don't have the final grading done as I am letting it settle so right now the clean outs are a couple of stove pipes.

To answer the other question, no my neighbor does not have a discharge pipe on my land. All of his tile comes out to the front of his property to the ditch along the road, through his driveway pipe and then on to me. With his permission years back I connected to his driveway pipe and ran that across and under my driveway. (He never disclosed he was sending his sump water this way).

Nothing out here is correct to plan. Original land developer short cut everything. The road ditch easement is not in the correct location to platt. The private road is not built to code. The community drain pipe that does run across my land and is used by my neighbor to drain his curtain drain from his septic field is not recorded correctly at the courthouse. The ingress/egress agreement for him and one other neighbor to use the road which is on my land also is not recorded at the courthouse.

I thought about putting up a gate and locking him out of his own land, but the lawyer says it won't stand in court. They will issue easement by "necessity" . Just because no one did their job correctly 20 years ago, you can't hold him hostage now.

Someday Karma will come back around.

 

[59 wagon man]

Build a wall sorry I couldn't resist

 

[NUTTSGT]

When I did mine I was concerned about critters going up the open end.
After 4years I have found that with the constant outflow of a sump pump and downspouts they look elsewhere.

I thought the same thing at one time. Then I saw a **** wading her *** up the drain. I set up a live trap, caught three little ones and feed the buzzards.