Tire machines questions

[katit]

Folks,

Seems like I'm going to shop for 3 reasons this days:

1. Inspections
2. Tires
3. Alignment

#1 is necessary evil
#3 is pretty rare

#2 becomes royal PITA. My cars go through tires pretty fast and it seems like I'm paying for mount/balance every year or even more. Plus, sometime I need to re-balance but don't do it because it's PITA to take my car there. My shop charges $25/wheel this days and it's just too much time for me to drop car off and pick it up. I can probably do it faster myself.

So, I've been thinking about getting machines and do this myself. I've see once on local CL pair of mount/balance machines for less then $1k

Questions:
#1: How big those machines? I don't have space in garage but I can find some in basement. I store wheels in basement anyway.
#2: What is a minimum kind of equipment I need to mount up to 18" wheels?
#3: Do I really need it?

Bonus question
Can I do alignment myself?

Thanks!

 

[Cryptic1911]

well, the reason you go through so many tires may be because you need an alignment. whats happening to the tires as far as wear?

as for 18"+ wheels, you'll need a fairly recent machine. Most of the old stuff wasn't made to accomodate rims of that size

 

[katit]

Alignment is not really a problem. 540 is heavy car and kills rear tires i 6-7k. I'm using summer/winter performance tires on all cars and those don't last like this 60k miles plastic..

All my wheels for today is 17" or 16", I'm thinking 18" to cover my bases, Most likely I will never have car with bigger than that wheels.

 

[Stuart in MN]

A BMW 540? About the only alignment adjustment you can do is toe-in on the front wheels, everything else is pretty much just bolted in place without provisions for adjustment (unless you've added aftermarket camber plates or something like that.) Any alignment problems besides toe-in are going to be either due to worn parts or collision damage. You can buy or make a measurement device for toe-in for not a lot of money.

 

[Cryptic1911]

When you have gotten them, were they front end alignments? or did you do a 4 wheel? reason I ask is because if the toe is off, it will chew up tires like no tomorrow.. I'm no BMW expert, but I'd think that they have adjustable toe in the rear

is it the edges of the tires that wear? or do they wear evenly?

sorry for going off on the alignment subject, but 6-7k seems awful low even for summer tires

 

[katit]

A BMW 540? About the only alignment adjustment you can do is toe-in on the front wheels, everything else is pretty much just bolted in place without provisions for adjustment (unless you've added aftermarket camber plates or something like that.)

Well, thats not true.

Rear:
#13,15,16
http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DE53&mospid=47588&btnr=33_0519&hg=33&fg=30

Front tires wear OK. Alignment was done and everything is OK. This is just beasts "feature"

 

[cjbcpa]

I went down this road because I'm changing tires on my track car fairly often. Being able to do the daily drivers is a bonus.

First, these things are heavy. If you find one used, be sure you have the extra hands, trailer and other odds and ends to get it home and positioned in you shop safely. I don't think "down in the basement" is going to be a possibility.

Two, size matters, older machines have a limit to the size tire they can manage. I bought a Ranger and it changes up to 17" or 18" rims which is fine for my needs.

Three, if I had it to do over again, I would look for a machine with a hydraulic helper arm that articulates around the tire as you are mounting/dismounting. Mine doesn't have one and it can require a lot of muscle to mount and dismount. Also, since I don't do this for a living, I probably don't have enough practice yet.

Four, you'll need to balance your tires once mounted. This requires another machine. You'll need a compressor for the mounting machine as well if you don't already have one. I assume most here do.

Getting all this made sense for me. Over time, these pieces will pay for themselves. When I do get rid of them, I can probably get nearly all my investment out of them, and; perhaps most important, two more cool pieces of equipment for the shop! You'll be surprised how many new friends you'll make when folks learn you have the gear to mount and balance tires.

CB

 

[katit]

I just did quick search on 540i issue and many people complain about same. They state inner side wearing though. Mine is alway even wear.

I will do alignment again, but let's get back to topic on tire machines, it's a garage board afterall

I can use tire balance every 5k or so and just can't go to shop every time.

 

[Cryptic1911]

I googled this, and some people say the rear is fixed except on "M" models, but I see others with 540i's talking about getting rear alignments, like this guy: http://www.bmwdiy.info/alignment/index.html he's even got before and after specs.

Also, this site here says that its common that 540's will tear up the rear tires if the toe is off: http://www.540i6.com/probsfixes.html check the suspension /drivetrain section.

I'd seriously find a good alignment shop and find out what your rear toe is set to right now, that has to be your issue

 

[katit]

I went down this road because I'm changing tires on my track car fairly often. Being able to do the daily drivers is a bonus.

First, these things are heavy. If you find one used, be sure you have the extra hands, trailer and other odds and ends to get it home and positioned in you shop safely. I don't think "down in the basement" is going to be a possibility.

Two, size matters, older machines have a limit to the size tire they can manage. I bought a Ranger and it changes up to 17" or 18" rims which is fine for my needs.

Three, if I had it to do over again, I would look for a machine with a hydraulic helper arm that articulates around the tire as you are mounting/dismounting. Mine doesn't have one and it can require a lot of muscle to mount and dismount. Also, since I don't do this for a living, I probably don't have enough practice yet.

Four, you'll need to balance your tires once mounted. This requires another machine. You'll need a compressor for the mounting machine as well if you don't already have one. I assume most here do.

Getting all this made sense for me. Over time, these pieces will pay for themselves. When I do get rid of them, I can probably get nearly all my investment out of them, and; perhaps most important, two more cool pieces of equipment for the shop! You'll be surprised how many new friends you'll make when folks learn you have the gear to mount and balance tires.

CB

Thats a reply I was looking for

How heavy is heavy? How big? Do you think I can move it to the basement? I have 32" door and stairs..

I have compressor and 220, so none of that is a problem.

Do you mind telling how much you paid for 2 machines? Obviously, it makes sense to buy both, what is the point in mounting and not balancing..

As far as "making friends" - no kidding. I already have plenty of friends with because I have lift in garage

 

[Stuart in MN]

Well, thats not true.

Rear:
#13,15,16
http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DE53&mospid=47588&btnr=33_0519&hg=33&fg=30

Front tires wear OK. Alignment was done and everything is OK. This is just beasts "feature"

Oops, sorry...my mistake. I was thinking of the older e34 cars (I have an e28 myself.)

 

[csp]

A friend has a tire machine and it probably takes up and area 3' wide by 4-5' deep. It has to weigh between 300-400 pounds.

See if there are any retailers that sell them online. They should have dimensions and shipping weights in the descriptions.

 

[katit]

http://www.harborfreight.com/semiautomatic-tire-changer-with-air-operated-tilting-arm-90589.html

 

[Cryptic1911]

I'd be sure to find reviews before buying something that expensive from HF. I like them, but ya just gotta be careful with what you buy. Have you looked at any of the Ranger tire changing equipment? I know greg smith sells some stuff for that too

 

[katit]

Yeah, ranger stuff on asedeals has very comparable prices and I would select them first. It's still too expensive. I will monitor local craigslist. I've seen decent stuff last year for less then 1K

 

[Dewaynep]

I'll second the idea that you aren't going to get a tire machine in a basement. That is, unless the basement is on the ground floor, they are very heavy. I bought a ranger rim clamp for my shop. It works great, no problems. I would suggest you check out ranger's offerings at asedeals.com. They are cheaper than Harbor Freight, free shipping and no sales tax. I suggest the Ranger units over the Workhorse brand because of parts and service availability. You could always keep a lookout on CL or Ebay, but I found that most decent tire machines were selling for what I could get a new machine for.

Edit: I was too slow...

 

[Dewaynep]

Yeah, ranger stuff on asedeals has very comparable prices and I would select them first. It's still too expensive. I will monitor local craigslist. I've seen decent stuff last year for less then 1K

It always looks "decent" until you go look at it and it's a wreck...

 

[katit]

I guess I need to drop that idea if it's not going to my basement. And it seems that it won't..

 

[Raze]

could always do a manual changer, on the low end are HFs, but there are much nicer, not terribly expensive ones with the right tools to prevent scratching even the finest rims...

 

[katit]

Really? Can you post example? Will they do runflats? I might potentially have newer BMW..

I was thinking about it. I'm pretty strong and I don't need to do 2 second tire changes. If there is manual changer that will not damage aluminum rims in 17-18 size range - it will work

 

[ket-tek]

Run flats and tires that are smaller than 45 series or so have such stiff side walls that you might be fighting pretty hard with it manually. That's why even tire machines have optional secondary tire helper arms, to keep pressure on the other side of the tire while it mounts, as it can come back off as the otherside goes on with lo-pros or otherwise stiff sidewall tires.

I plan on getting a changer and balancer in the future. The ranger stuff is nice, but you can get alot cheaper than that as well, you can get like Atlas stuff for under $1,900 combo deal for both changer and balancer and will do a 20". Most new machines these days will all do a 18" they are so common OEM now. The extra money comes in on extra bells and whistles. Second arms, super power bead blasters, and huge rim or tire sizes.

http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/Atlas-WB11-Atlas-TC221-p/wb11-attc221.htm

And a Hunter roadforce balance is awesome and can help determine bad tires that are too out of round, and split weights behind spokes for visual reasons.. But a normal balancer and plenty of time to learn and tweak you could keep your tires balanced on your own cars quite nicely.

And as for the basement, unless it's a walkout it'll be a chore to get one of these 500lb monsters through the house and down the steps.

I say go for it!

And yeah the 540 has rear toe adjustment, and improper rear toe will chew apart tires in a few thousand, no doubt. Been there before. One shop said it was in spec, two sets of rear tires later I took it to a different shop, and they said toe was way off. Got 40k out of the next set of tires, same brand and size as before too..

 

[rwhite692]

IMHO, owning a tire machine, even if you were to get the machine for free, is not worth it. Operating a tire machine (Unless you don't care about buggering up your wheels, or losing a finger) requires some skill and you are not likely to change so many tires for your own cars that you are going to get really good at it.

Not to mention that the machine takes up a lot of space sitting there for the remaining 364 days each year when you aren't changing tires, and you also need a rotary balancer, supply of weights... (A "bubble balancer", no way).

You'd be far better off to make friends with somebody who works at a garage or tire shop. I have a hunting buddy who takes care of all my tire changes after work or on weekends, I usually toss him some beer money and we call it done.

Manual changer? Yeah, way fun, if you are a masochist with unlimited time on your hands. Then you still have to balance....Wait! You could toss some 2oz. sinkers in the tire when you mount them! Self balancing!

 

[kesslerbmw]

I'm always watching for a tire machine/ balancer on the cheap...

I go though tires pretty quickly, and buy and sell a lot of wheels which need tires mounted or dismounted.

There is a reason that 540I'6's eat up tires... Because they've got a manual and a V8. Not totally sure on the e39, but on e34's if the dog bones are worn out, it eats the inside of the tire. Has nothing to do with the alignment.

 

[Vicegrip]

I have a Coats 5030 rim clamp tire machine and a Coats 700 dynamic spin balancer. I found the spin balancer for under $500 almost unused and it came with a rack of bins and many full sets of weight profiles. I see the Coats 700 for sale from time to time but not often. It is a great spin balancer as it has a small footprint and no big tire cover. The modern spin balancers do not spin the tires very fast and the big covers is more for certain work place rules than any real safety. The 700 will balance as well as the larger dynamic units.

The Coats 5030E is a good rim clamp type machine and you can mount and dismount all kinds of tires. They are $3000 + new and can often be found in the sub $1000 range used. they are very durable and I would not worry too much about buying a used 5030. All parts are available and are not gouge you expensive. This can not be said about some of the rebranded machines from Hunter or Snap -On. I mount and dismount low profile racing tires all the time. it will do an 18 inch rim and low profile tires. The better you are at tire mounting the less effort you will need wrestling tires. you have to lift them on and off but the machine does the work unless you are not using good methods and form. You can fight or you can coax the tires on or off. I can swap tires on rims without touching the metal or painted fronts. The clamp works by gripping the inside of the barrel pushing out or from the rim pushing in. clamping in does not leave visible marks but the push out to grip method can leave bite marks. These machines are small and light enough to move on a hand cart through standard doors.

That said I would hate dragging tires and rims into a basement to swap / flip / change them and then drag them back out. I might bet you would consider the tire shop a bargain after doing a set or 3.

Your return on investment will be very long unless you are a track rat or have a fleet of cars to take care of. Tires are work to do even with good equipment. They are dirty and you have to know what you are doing or you will loose fingers. Tire machines like to eat stupid fingers that wander in places they are not supposed to.

 

[fefarms]

I have a Coats 5060E rim clamp tire changer and a Hunter DSP9500 balancer. I paid about $600 each at a going-out-of-business auction. I put them in a barn separate from my main shop because they take up so much space. It is painful to shuttle tires and wheels back and forth -- I use the loader bucket on my backhoe to minimize the lifting.

The machines are heavy. 600 pounds plus. I used a forklift and pallet jack to move them.

I feel basement location is a real challenge from getting them down there to using them once in place.

It isn't that hard to learn to use such machines. There isn't that much skill required. I don't see this as an issue at all. Practice on some cheap steel wheels.

The Hunter required 3 phase power. I didn't notice nor expect this when I bought it as the prior owner had a 240 volt single phase plug on it. It wasn't until it failed to power up that I took the covers off the machine and found it was 3-phase. Fortunately, I've got 3-phase at the barn.

There is a thriving aftermarket on parts for the Coats tire changers. They have good support on their website. Hunter is not nearly so good -- manuals don't seem to be available and one has to go through the local rep for parts and sevice.

Living on a farm 6 miles from town it is really convenient to be able to fix a tire myself in 15 or 20 minutes, even when I could have gotten it fixed for free at Les Schwab in town.

 

[katit]

I don't have much space in garage and having 2 sets (winter/summer) for my cars I have to store them in a basement anyway. So, moving wheels in/out is necessary evil.


As far as 540i6 - like I said there is no abnormal wear. Just fast. I will do alignment now since I'm wondering myself now.. Will ask them to do tire-friendly alignment and see how it goes.

I guess I won't need tire machine until next year

 

[cjbcpa]

Thats a reply I was looking for

How heavy is heavy? How big? Do you think I can move it to the basement? I have 32" door and stairs..

I have compressor and 220, so none of that is a problem.

Do you mind telling how much you paid for 2 machines? Obviously, it makes sense to buy both, what is the point in mounting and not balancing..

As far as "making friends" - no kidding. I already have plenty of friends with because I have lift in garage

I found both machines on Craigslist, but searched regularly for over a year to find something close (2 hours) and reasonably priced. I paid $600 for the Ranger machine and $500 for a Snap-on hand spin balancer. Both were in used, but clean functioning shape and also included their respective user manuals.

The Ranger must weigh 400+ pounds. Really, they are awkward to move under regular conditions. Personally, I would never attempt moving up or down stairs (well maybe with a winch). The Greg Smith stuff is very attractively priced but I have no other knowledge of it.

One alternative might be to do a group buy with some buddies, one of which has the space to store it. That's what some fellow track club guys have done. New gear is quite reasonable split five or six ways and even with that number, the machines aren't going to get the kind of workout they would in a pro shop.

CB

 

[pamelascot]

I'm sorry if this sounds like a smart-alecky answer, I don't mean to sound this way, but, my husband pointed out that if I change my driving habits a little bit, the tires would wear longer. Brake in advance of red lights, try to pick routes with straight shots rather than turns, stuff like that. Also, we shopped around and found a mom and pop shop (but in business for 50+ years) and they align our tires for free every year. Is the cost hidden in the price of the tires? No, it is not.

 

[WhiffySpark]

Another option is equal balance bags or similar. We use them on mud tires never tried a car tire but it may be worth looking into.

 

[RocketScott]

I picked up an older hunter tire machine off craigslist a few years ago. It was a basket case that needed a bunch of work to get it going. Found a place back east that sells parts and ordered everything from them. I probably have around $500 into it and have used it enough times that it has paid for itself.

It does take up a lot of space but I think it's been worth it to have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jlbc212]

I have a NoMar manual tire changer that i bought to change out motorcycle tires, but I also do all my car and truck tires on it too. Balancing motor cycle tires is easy. With the car and truck tires I align the factory balance point on the tire with the valve stem and so far no balance issues. Since I started changing out my own tires I haven't had any pesky slow leaks because I take the time to clean up the bead seating area on the rim.

 

[vavet]

Wow...quite a thread rejuvination.

BMW E39s are absolutely alignable (camber and toe) in the rear. I was a BMW dealer tech for several years before moving to the parts counter and then out of the auto business. I also daily drove a 525it E39 (wagon) for several years.

My advice- find a competent independent shop who specializes in European vehicles. BMWs typically run a lot of rear negative camber to help them handle better, and it works. Worn parts (dog bones) exacerbate the problem. There are people who have gone through a lot of work to do their own alignments. You have to be detail oriented to make it accurate enough to work, strings, bubble levels, etc, but it can be done. The laser equipment in a shop does the same thing, it just does it faster.

If you want to do it yourself, take a rear wheel off to examine the parts you will need to adjust and figure out the best way to reach it before you're under the car with the wheel on. It's not impossible, but access can be tricky. I bought a particular wrench from the Mac truck for this purpose. It's a long-handled double box end wrench with no offset. One side is 16mm and the other is 18mm. I can't recall now which end is needed.

There will be limits, but factory settings probably call for around 2 degrees of negative camber in the rear. You can reduce that, but keep it equal from left to right side to prevent a pull.

 

[sberry]

I said I would never have one but,,,, I also have it in my storage building but it wouldn't scare me to put one in a basement either. I may look at another one, I do some alum on it and need a balancer, have a snap hand spin I would sell or trade for something else.

 

[WhiffySpark]

That style will tear his rims up easily. They're pretty much gone steel truck wheels is the only thing we used them for 8 years ago. I hate them lol. You don't NEED an assist arm but it's nice to have. Two hand bars can do the same thing