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To build on a slope

Highbeam

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
2,292
Location
Mt Rainier foothills, WA
I have plans to build a 32x60 shop/garage in my backyard using pole construction and a floating slab. About 4 years ago I used my tractor to plow, disc, and level out the humps and bumps so it is very flat. It is lawn now. It is not level. The building pad has a slope that runs the long way down the 60' length of the shop. The entrance to this shop, towards the road is the high side and I need to fill 2.5 feet at the low side to match. I plan to extend the fill pad 10' beyond the building in each direction and use rock walls to contain the fill.

So I have a nice consistent wedge that needs to be filled. I have a 4500# tractor that I will use to place the material that will arrive in 10 yard dump truck loads.

How do you folks suggest I place and compact the fill to prevent the settlement of the slab? Can I just wheel roll it with the tractor? The pole bases will be 4' below the level slab grade so they will set down on native soil.

I can't dig out for the building since I plan to have drive-in doors on each gable (32') end.
 
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larry_g

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Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
16,879
Location
oregon
I
How do you folks suggest I place and compact the fill to prevent the settlement of the slab? Can I just wheel roll it with the tractor? The pole bases will be 4' below the level slab grade so they will set down on native soil.

.

I don't know where your at but I failed an inspection because I thought 4' below the top of the slab was OK. The inspector informed me that the hole had to be 4' deep below undisturbed soil. Just trying to prevent you surprises in the future. Good luck on your build.

lg
no neat sig line
 

rsanter

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Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
18,514
Location
visalia ca
have someone else do it. to me the liability of not getting it right and the shop sliding would scare me

frankly I would be driving pylons/casons into the ground to suport my home/shop because I have seen houses shift or slide down hills because of errosion

bob
 

John in OH

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Joined
Jun 2, 2007
Messages
2,444
Location
SE Ohio & Eastern Virginia
Building on fill is always somewhat tricky.

Larry_g has a very good point regarding the depth of the poles being based on the elevation of the undisturbed soil rather than the fill elevation. You need to check what is required in your area.

Also, in my area any fill in excess of 12 in. must be "engineered" and you must have a letter from an engineer certifying the fill material, compaction, etc.
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
258
Location
EARTH QUAKE SHAKE PROOF...NORTH OTAGO,WAITAKI DIST
Assumming u got foundation perimeter forms set in? (ideal foundation is dig down to clay / hard base...incl setting in power cable,water and drainage etc).

Steps;
1,
compact clay sub base etc with pl8t compactor.
2,
lay down weed cloth...this is not common practice but i use it so the hardfill / gravel etc dont settle due to surface area but still allow drainage. Cloth is cheap from garden shops in big rolls).
3,
fill base and compact evry which way, inch by inch until compactor bounces then fill and repeat until finnish. (in hi traffic areas u mite need to cement stabilise fill by raking in cement into the damp fill prior to compacting).if u need to have heavy lathe etc u mite need to dig in and pour concrete piles in stage 2, but make up bags using poly sheet an tape then pour having reinforcing installed.
4,
cover with poly and install reinforcing,wall anchors etc then pour conk.

Make sure the wall footings are at least 1 1/2 foot wide and 1 foot deep below clay/ or hard sub base and reinforced.

Concrete is to be lo slump (very dry mix for max strength) and well vibrated (to increase density).... From bottom up, not dragged.

After setting the pad should be kept wet for 7 days min to cure so to avoid shrinkage, but 20 days max is best to fully stabilise.
The conk should not run out of water whilst curing...due to shock based on temperature cement reaction etc when curing.

if needed?, set up small garden sprinklers or micro sprinklers with timer to keep wet.

All the best
 
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OP
H

Highbeam

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Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
2,292
Location
Mt Rainier foothills, WA
I am on the wet side of washington. South puget sound. 2.5 feet of fill over a 60 length is a very shallow slope, nothing will slide anywhere. We don't have a frost depth here, I've seen ground frozen about 2" down at the most. The native soil is a sandy loam with some silty areas.

I am a civil engineer so I am now engineering this fill and using your real world experience to help me. You folks should never trust an engineer that thinks his books will have all of the answers.

Looking for real world methods of bringing up the grade. I have seen several examples on this site in the gallery of folks that bring in a guy with a dozer to level the ground. Sometimes they import fill, sometimes they cut the high side and use that material to fill the low side. Very little detail is given to the compaction methods. It seems that most allow the contractor to "just do it". The building will be a post building so will not settle. I'm a little worried that the 5" thick floating slab will see some differential settlement as the fill settles over time. I expect some settlement but want to minimize it using the best methods that you and I can come up with.

I will have a hard time digging a 6.5' deep hole for the post. I'll have to check the building details on those posts. The idea would be to place the fill with enough compaction to act like native ground around the posts. Glad you brought it up.

I can rent other equipment as needed.
 
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tvfd911

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Joined
Oct 13, 2010
Messages
104
I am on the wet side of washington. South puget sound. 2.5 feet of fill over a 60 length is a very shallow slope, nothing will slide anywhere. We don't have a frost depth here, I've seen ground frozen about 2" down at the most. The native soil is a sandy loam with some silty areas.

I am a civil engineer so I am now engineering this fill and using your real world experience to help me. You folks should never trust an engineer that thinks his books will have all of the answers.

Looking for real world methods of bringing up the grade. I have seen several examples on this site in the gallery of folks that bring in a guy with a dozer to level the ground. Sometimes they import fill, sometimes they cut the high side and use that material to fill the low side. Very little detail is given to the compaction methods. It seems that most allow the contractor to "just do it". The building will be a post building so will not settle. I'm a little worried that the 5" thick floating slab will see some differential settlement as the fill settles over time. I expect some settlement but want to minimize it using the best methods that you and I can come up with.

I will have a hard time digging a 6.5' deep hole for the post. I'll have to check the building details on those posts. The idea would be to place the fill with enough compaction to act like native ground around the posts. Glad you brought it up.

I can rent other equipment as needed.

Whether to cut into the hill and use that material as fill or truck in depends on what looks like will work best for your lot and what kind of quality the ground material is. Consider handling water running from uphill. For a shallow fill like that, we'd more often raise the site, rather than both cut & raise.

Once you make that decision, around here, you'd have to remove topsoil to get down to virgin mineral soil for code due to stability. As far as the method on how to compact, depends on the capacity of your compaction equipment. To properly compact, you had the idea right, compact well enough it can be considered virgin soil. The compaction equipment we had required no more than 10 inch lifts per time. That is, the compactor was only effective for a 10 inch depth. What you do is level out your fill that deep over the area with your tractor bucket or blade then go over it with the compactor. Place and level another lift of fill over what you just compacted, compact and repeat until you get to the elevation you're after. Be sure that the slope away from your building pad is plenty shallow for ease of getting up and maintaining around the building in the future. Once the building is complete, take the stockpiled topsoil that was removed and distribute over your slope so you can replant if desired.

A surveyor's/contractor's laser transit makes quick work of ensuring you're bringing your lifts up level and even. Bringing up the lifts isn't precision work, so just setting the receiver on the staff at a set point then raise or lower your staff until it beeps. Eyeball how far to the ground you are and compare to other areas. Once you're near your final elevation, set your receiver height so that the bottom of the staff is your intended elevation. As long as you don't move your laser transit or the receiver on the staff, you're golden. You don't need to go all out and do proper surveying as you're just doing relative comparisons, simply follow surveying ideas of consistent methodology.
 

destroked

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
16
Location
71110 zip code
I've built several buildings in Montana, Portland and Eugene Oregon and Spokane WA. I know the conditions you're dealing with climate wise and typical soil conditions.

Helical piers with post tension are the only guarantee to deal with fill dirt, I don't care how much the engineering prints prove the soil can be compacted, getting the excavation crew to match the calc's is rare, especially with varying soil composition with dump trucks being off-site fill material in. Running a tractor over the dirt is going to be hopeful at best, most V tread tractor tires are designed to partially float, not compact. Compactors can be found cheap for sale, even if it's at the end of it's life, you only need one job out of it. Sell it when you're done if you are dealing with a weekend project type of time frame.

Any chance you can level the site and let it settle over a winter freeze/ spring thaw before pouring the slab? That will help alot if you can't afford piers to put the load on to the virgin ground below the fill. I'd auger holes in with a post hole auger and fill with concrete if engineered piers are too costly, they will help if you tie them accordingly.

A rotating laser level on a surveyor's trip pod is going to be you best friend throughout the build. You can find good quality ones for under $400.00 that will last you for years. I have had a Porta Cable model since 2001 that has yet to give up. I use it weekly and find new tasks for it all the time.
 
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kbs2244

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Joined
Nov 11, 2006
Messages
14,065
I post construction it isn’t the bottom of the hole that supports the structure.
It is the friction of the soil against the sides of the pole.
That is why you need to continually tamp the soil as you back fill around the pole.
The dirt need to be tight against the post.

I would not trust the tractor alone as a compactor without some research as to what the ground loading is with your tire set up.

Some tractors are set up to “float,” with as little ground loading as possible.
This is to avoid soil compaction around the seeds while in the field.
Others are set up just the opposite.
They even fill the tires with water for more weight.

If you watch a construction site for a big box store or a road you will see a machine with a roller covered with what looks like oversized railroad spikes.
It is called a “sheep’s foot” after the old-time practice of herding a flock of sheep back and forth across a slab site.
The idea is to concentrate the weight into as small a spot as possible.
This insures compaction.

Whatever you use, you do it every six inches, after you wet it.
(That is why you see the “water trucks” at these sites.)
And to a to a perimeter at least two feet beyond where the posts will go.
(Remember, we want tight soil around the posts as well as under the slab.}

If you want to watch a real world crew plant poles find where the local power company is putting some in.
You will see tricks on drilling the holes, plumbing the posts, and back filling.
They do lots a day and few people realize the tension those wires put on the posts.
Especially a corner one.
They need to do it right or they have to come back in the bad weather and do it again.
 

Alfa Ron

Active member
Joined
Mar 12, 2011
Messages
35
Location
The Great Central Valley, CA
Highbeam,

Bringing up grade in the real world starts with a properly prepared subgrade. Engineered fill won't help you at all if you place the fill on unprepared expansive, compressible, or collapsible soil; or even on uncompacted soil of any type for that matter. I agree with kbs2244, a tractor will not give you enough compactive effort. You'll need a roller and a way of wetting and working the wetted fill material to distribute the moisture before placing and compacting. There are at least a hundred other details that need to be taken seriously if you are going to do this correctly.

Another thing to consider: You are located in a seismically active area. Your building pad needs to be built so that your building doesn't slide down the slope during the next good-sized earthquake.

Remember, this is not just a shed, this is a 1900 square foot building. The building pad fill is just as important as the pole foundations and the roof trusses.
 
OP
H

Highbeam

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Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
2,292
Location
Mt Rainier foothills, WA
Whether to cut into the hill and use that material as fill or truck in depends on what looks like will work best for your lot and what kind of quality the ground material is. Consider handling water running from uphill. For a shallow fill like that, we'd more often raise the site, rather than both cut & raise.

Once you make that decision, around here, you'd have to remove topsoil to get down to virgin mineral soil for code due to stability. As far as the method on how to compact, depends on the capacity of your compaction equipment. To properly compact, you had the idea right, compact well enough it can be considered virgin soil. The compaction equipment we had required no more than 10 inch lifts per time. That is, the compactor was only effective for a 10 inch depth. What you do is level out your fill that deep over the area with your tractor bucket or blade then go over it with the compactor. Place and level another lift of fill over what you just compacted, compact and repeat until you get to the elevation you're after. Be sure that the slope away from your building pad is plenty shallow for ease of getting up and maintaining around the building in the future. Once the building is complete, take the stockpiled topsoil that was removed and distribute over your slope so you can replant if desired.

A surveyor's/contractor's laser transit makes quick work of ensuring you're bringing your lifts up level and even. Bringing up the lifts isn't precision work, so just setting the receiver on the staff at a set point then raise or lower your staff until it beeps. Eyeball how far to the ground you are and compare to other areas. Once you're near your final elevation, set your receiver height so that the bottom of the staff is your intended elevation. As long as you don't move your laser transit or the receiver on the staff, you're golden. You don't need to go all out and do proper surveying as you're just doing relative comparisons, simply follow surveying ideas of consistent methodology.

Great post, you seem to understand the situation. I own a rotary laser level and it has been very helpful.

To be clear, this is a very shallow fill making a 60' long wedge. The slope is barely noticable, trucks don't roll in neautral. Kids on bikes don't know if they are riding uphill or downhill. The building is so long that the slight slope adds up though so I need to fill in such a way that the fill acts like native soil. There are pole shops documented on this site that needed more than 6' of fill in a low area, and nothing but a LGP dozer was used to complete the fill.

I believe I will use the method of stockpiling the fill off the pad and then spreading it over the pad in level lifts. I can rent a real vibratory roller to seriously compact the lifts. Hopefully all in one day. I'm expecting this to require about 200 CY of imported material.

I do believe that the bottom of the post supports the structure. This isn't pier or pile construction. In those methods, the friction of the earth acting on the sides of the pier provide the support. Those piers can go down 80 feet!. You won't get much any of that type of support acting on a 6x6 post in the top four feet of earth. Prepare your post hole bottom accordingly. The biggest reason for compaction of the post backfill is to provide lateral stability so you can't push the building over.

I actually like the geopier suggestion. I could dig out a series of 4 foot deep post holes and backfill with rock or concrete.

One of the best ideas is to wait. Give the fill, and the subgrade, time to settle under the weight of the new fill. This is not a bad idea either, and will likely be how it goes. I plan to pour the slab after the building is complete. This should allow time for settlement. If the floor is still settling then I will postpone concrete.

I'll be sure to make a gallery thread. I've got the pad cleared of junk now. Moved the chicken coop, the firepit, etc. Fill is lined up. The recent wet weather doesn't help but tomorrow is the first day of spring.:thumbup:
 

LEVE

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Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
1,727
Location
On the Willapa
When I have to settle fill (and I'm no expert) I usually figure a few weeks into the build plan to do the job.

My steps are:
  • do the grading and
  • then soak the area with water and
  • let it drain...
  • then soak it again and
  • let it drain and dry.
  • Then I'll compact, and
  • repeat the soak/drain/dry/compact cycle two more times.
Water is quite heavy, and seems to help settle the fill faster than any other method I could have used. You can really tell the difference between compacting the first time, and the third that the tamping/compacting cycle has done it's job.

It's worked for my last three house and garage builds. Any comments?
 
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Highbeam

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Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
2,292
Location
Mt Rainier foothills, WA
Okay folks so this is happening. I've lined up the 3 ton vibratory roller for Saturday and have just about 100 yards of fill on site to place in the building footprint and at least 10 feet beyond the footprint to make a way oversized pad.

The plan is to compact the existing hard ground for good measure and then start adding fill in four inch lifts.

The imported soil is high quality pit run gravel. A granular product that is basicly good fill dirt. No clay, no organics, some gravel, some sand.

The laser level has good batteries and I've got a lot of diesel on hand to power the equipement. Great weather on tap too.

Wish me luck.
 
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