Tool Batteries for Other Brands

[FMC1959]

I saw this being advertised by an online vendor, and thought it was a great idea. I have no idea if Graco is part of SB&D

390 PC Cordless Airless Sprayer, Stand

www.graco.com

If Dewalt, Milwaukee, and Makita (other tool brands also welcome) would offer to power or make an alliance with small home appliances or any other item which the market is starting to see cordless as popular, they could make a very good market share for the infrastructure of their batteries. At the same time, they would be helping us, the consumer, by possibly having to go one less battery platform.

Take a Lincoln grease gun, if you really like Lincoln's grease gun and want to go cordless, another platform, which if you aren't greasing, sits there. There are tons of these dustbuster type hand vacuums or also the stick vacuums, by Hoover, Shark, Dyson and others; if a few years back Dewalt and others had made some kind of agreement with Lincoln, or Hoover, or other brand, it's a win for that company. They do not have to spend R&D to make the battery platform, as well as come out with newer, better generations for future products. If say Dewalt got the contract, and say Hoover was going to accept Flexvolt or standard 20v, depending on what the product required, all they would have to do is make the adapter section to accept the battery. Dewalt has more battery sales, Hoover can worry more about the vacuums and less about the ever developing battery technology.

We the consumer would also win provided we have that platform...if not, you are no worse off than now....except if it had an M18 battery or Flexvolt, going forward you would now have that platform which easily has more tools to use than Hoovers battery.

In Europe, I know the some of the tool makers have got together and made CAS (Cordless Alliance System). I do know Metabo (not HPT) and Mafell are part of it, I do not know many of the other brands, maybe they are popular in Europe. This would be similar concept but by going into markets outside of tools.

I believe that Chevron is the parent company of Skil, SkilSaw and EGO, which recently introduced the new Flex brand (The German Flex is different, or bought out by Chevron) of cordless tools at Lowes. 24v, more power, lifetime warranties and other goodies to try and get people on board and buy into the platform. I think they really missed the boat; what is everyone's biggest negative about Flex..."I do not want another battery platform". What they could have done is used one of the existing platform, from Skil, SkilSaw or EGO (maybe EGO a bit on the big side).

They would have at least a small shoe in the market with the battery by owners already on the platform ,although these 3 do not have a huge share of the market, the still have something. At the very least, the owners of the battery platform Chevron would have used, these people would be more open to trying a new tool that is compatible with their existing tools.

I have multiple cordless platforms (11 but I am sick puppy), but Makita might be my favorite. I was not happy with their XGT. For me to, for example, buy the XGT 10 1/4" saw, I would need to buy into a whole new platform. No different than anyone buying a tool that they don't have the batteries for. On the other hand, I have loved their 36v (18x2) tools, I have 5-6 and love the extra power while still maintaining my 18v LXT batteries, which I have over 30 batteries.

Let me see if I can rope this back into what I was originally talking about....this Graco paint system, your Shark stick vac, and any other household product you now have with a proprietary battery system, all ran on M18 (Flexvolt, LXT...etc.) batteries...wouldn't that be pretty cool?

 

[JradM]

It would be cool. Sadly no one seems interested.

Bosch has a cordless "alliance" where they make batteries for a few specialized companies - none the average homeowner would every think to buy.

 

[FMC1959]

How long ago was the Bosch attempt? And was this in NA or Germany?

I think today, more and more items are going cordless and the marketplace is definitely growing. I am sure there are companies that have products they would like the idea of going cordless, but are just too small to start a whole department for battery tech. This would be an ideal solution

 

[dnschmidt]

In Europe there is a battery alliance of top tool manufactures which includes Metabo, Fein, and Mafell All premium brands. All of batteries by any can be used with any other tool. Chances of this happening in the USA is slim and none.

 

[FMC1959]

In Europe there is a battery alliance of top tool manufactures which includes Metabo, Fein, and Mafell All premium brands. All of batteries by any can be used with any other tool. Chances of this happening in the USA is slim and none.

"In Europe, I know the some of the tool makers have got together and made CAS (Cordless Alliance System). I do know Metabo (not HPT) and Mafell are part of it, I do not know many of the other brands, maybe they are popular in Europe. This would be similar concept but by going into markets outside of tools."

As far as I know, Fein was not part of CAS. But they recently joined or were bought out by, not sure, Metabo(?). If this is the case, then going forward may have a new design to their battery and could then be part of CAS.

This is their website, which may be up to date or not, and Fein is not shown

CAS - Cordless Alliance System

www.cordless-alliance-system.com

 

[neophyte]

In Europe there is a battery alliance of top tool manufactures which includes Metabo, Fein, and Mafell All premium brands. All of batteries by any can be used with any other tool. Chances of this happening in the USA is slim and none.

Fein as far as I’m aware is not part of the Cordless Alliance System, unless something recently changed.
Mafell may be part of the CAS, but it likely has to do with Mafell knowing they need to offer Cordless tools to their customers, and kniwing their customers in the past were probably pissed off with Mafell switching the battery system they used for each new cordless tool.(Mafell, before the CAS, used battery systems from Bosch, Milwaukee/AEG, Metabo, and maybe others)
The reason something like the CAS works in Germany, is because there are a large number of independent power tool manufacturers, many making niche types of tools, and many of them don't even manufacture their own regular voltage tools( ie. 120/240) let alone cordless tools or a battery system.
Trumpf and Draco are two manufacturers os sheet metal nibblers/shears, and both companies rely on motors from outside manufacturers, and they seem to switch motor suppliers with every other tool model, or newer model of a tool.
Many other specialty European manufacturers are similar. Lamello for instance doesn’t manufacture any of their own motors.
In the US, most of the major power tool brands are their own entities, and ise their own designs and their own motors, both for corded and cordless tools. Even if they don’t manufacture their own cordless motors or batteries, the housing and battery designs are usually proprietary. Kett(a manufacturer of sheet metal shears) is an exception.
For most major tool manufacturers, the money is in selling the new/extra batteries and chargers to their customers.

As far as Bosch supplying a battery system to other manufacturers, it didn’t seem to be as common as some other manufacturers like Milwaukee/AEG, but Bosch did supply Mafell with batteries and maybe motors for one of Mafell’s cordless saws, and I think they might have supplied one of the companies that made cordless strapping tools.

Flex isn’t a new brand. They’ve been around decades, if not close to a 100 years at this point, but I’m not sure when they started using the “Flex” brand name.
Flex was originally a German company. At some point, Porter Cable( pre Black & Decker) purchased Flex, maybe early 2000s, and started selling the Flex tools in the USA, then Porter Cable and related companies got bought out by Black & Decker, and then I think Flex got purchased by some British group, and then later hot sold to Chervon, a Chinese manufacturer of cordless tools that has been around a little over 20 years.
Chervon was manufacturing private label brands for companies like Lowes Kobalt before this, so Chervon probably just leaned on Lowes to get better market distribution, and Lowes went with it because the Flex brand was an “Industrial” brand when Chervon purchased it.

 

[FMC1959]

Fein as far as I’m aware is not part of the Cordless Alliance System, unless something recently changed.
Mafell may be part of the CAS, but it likely has to do with Mafell knowing they need to offer Cordless tools to their customers, and kniwing their customers in the past were probably pissed off with Mafell switching the battery system they used for each new cordless tool.(Mafell, before the CAS, used battery systems from Bosch, Milwaukee/AEG, Metabo, and maybe others)
The reason something like the CAS works in Germany, is because there are a large number of independent power tool manufacturers, many making niche types of tools, and many of them don't even manufacture their own regular voltage tools( ie. 120/240) let alone cordless tools or a battery system.
Trumpf and Draco are two manufacturers os sheet metal nibblers/shears, and both companies rely on motors from outside manufacturers, and they seem to switch motor suppliers with every other tool model, or newer model of a tool.
Many other specialty European manufacturers are similar. Lamello for instance doesn’t manufacture any of their own motors.
In the US, most of the major power tool brands are their own entities, and ise their own designs and their own motors, both for corded and cordless tools. Even if they don’t manufacture their own cordless motors or batteries, the housing and battery designs are usually proprietary. Kett(a manufacturer of sheet metal shears) is an exception.
For most major tool manufacturers, the money is in selling the new/extra batteries and chargers to their customers.

As far as Bosch supplying a battery system to other manufacturers, it didn’t seem to be as common as some other manufacturers like Milwaukee/AEG, but Bosch did supply Mafell with batteries and maybe motors for one of Mafell’s cordless saws, and I think they might have supplied one of the companies that made cordless strapping tools.

Flex isn’t a new brand. They’ve been around decades, if not close to a 100 years at this point, but I’m not sure when they started using the “Flex” brand name.
Flex was originally a German company. At some point, Porter Cable( pre Black & Decker) purchased Flex, maybe early 2000s, and started selling the Flex tools in the USA, then Porter Cable and related companies got bought out by Black & Decker, and then I think Flex got purchased by some British group, and then later hot sold to Chervon, a Chinese manufacturer of cordless tools that has been around a little over 20 years.
Chervon was manufacturing private label brands for companies like Lowes Kobalt before this, so Chervon probably just leaned on Lowes to get better market distribution, and Lowes went with it because the Flex brand was an “Industrial” brand when Chervon purchased it.

"For most major tool manufacturers, the money is in selling the new/extra batteries and chargers to their customers."...this is the case for the big "battery" companies, like Dewalt, Milwaukee...etc. For small companies like Lincoln, I doubt they sell many batteries. I would suspect the tool dies, the user buys a newer model, or a variety of other reasons to scrap the gun rather than buy new batteries.

Flex isn’t a new brand. They’ve been around decades, if not close to a 100 years at this point, but I’m not sure when they started using the “Flex” brand name....this I was aware. IIRC, they started in the 1950's (maybe 1957) and are credited with being the inventor of the grinder. I have a Flex HEPA vac with the self cleaning filter (Like many high end vacs, OEM'd by Nilfisk), in the classic burgundy color.

Many companies will OEM many parts, like motors, batteries and other parts which they are not big enough to dedicate funds to a whole new department dedicated to MFR'ing. I am sure Lincoln has them made to their specs by someone like Emerson (example).

The point of the thread was that rather than either making their own batteries or OEM'ing the batteries, adopt one of the BIG battery MFR's but the big tool guys. Everything starts somewhere, but let's just say this slowly catches on. Graco uses Flexvolt. Lincoln decides their new generation of grease guns will use Flexvolt or 20v Dewalt. Then a company like you mentioned that makes nibblers decides, why bust our heads with the batteries, lets go with Dewalt.

These by themselves are not big numbers for Dewalt, but more importantly it is someone new on their battery platform. Someone that has this Lincoln grease gun, Graco Paint system, or nibblers...is now someone that if they need a drill, circ saw, SDS hammer, will look at Dewalt, since they have the system.

As it slowly grows, how long do you think before Milwaukee and Makita see what's happening and start knocking on the doors of 1000's of MFR of products, which they maybe have 1-3 items, and did not consider cordless because of the expense. If it caught big enough, I could see Dewalt, Milwaukee, Makita and any others offering incentives to use their battery.

Look around your house, how many items have rechargeable proprietary batteries, or even items that have internal batteries which could be adapted to rechargeable external batteries. Milwaukee has M12, M18 and MX. They could easily cater to so many small MFR's wanting an easy to use and easy to find battery system, that already has a large infrastructure.

I don't know how well MX Fuel is catching on, and maybe Milwaukee will follow Ryobi and EGO and introduce a ZTR mower. but what if Milwaukee approached all the OPE MFR's, that specialize in tools that Milwaukee themselves would probably never consider adding to their own MX tool line, but offer their battery system. Example, Wacker Neuson, for rammers and vibrating plates. Bomag for small rollers, and concrete finishers. Or even existing battery powered equipment like scissor & boom lifts.

This would give their MX Fuel line a massive boost. On the consumer/contractor side, same think one less platform to worry about.

 

[gfd_703]

There are some Fire/Rescue tools that use the old Milwaukee 28v batteries.

 

[JradM]

This post on Toolguyd is where I first heard about Bosch's efforts. There are others too.

Battery Alliance

 

[dnschmidt]

Whatever your question is in life the answer never changes: MONEY

 

[FMC1959]

Whatever your question is in life the answer never changes: MONEY

You don't think that have other brands using your batteries would be a money maker? Like this Graco, money for Dewalt, saved money for Graco, and heck, even saved money for us...the consumer.

390 PC Cordless Airless Sprayer, Stand

www.graco.com

 

[subroc]

If these battery companies you speak of believe there is a tool out there that would benefit from using their battery platform, they will make the tool themselves. No need for the other guy.

 

[FMC1959]

If these battery companies you speak of believe there is a tool out there that would benefit from using their battery platform, they will make the tool themselves. No need for the other guy.

I am talking about any type of household item that could have a market for a cordless version. Say Singer decides to make a cordless sewing machine, do you think the tool companies would swoop in a make it before Singer gets there's to market, I don't think so. I don't know the need for a cordless sewing machine, but if it could work, a company like Singer could use a Dewalt, M18 or Makita battery.

 

[FMC1959]

There are certain limitations; high wattage items like toasters, boilers, coffee makers...etc, can drain a battery quickly. But Makita made a coffee maker, and yes there are those that complain they **** batteries dry, but still, there are people who use and like them.

 

[neophyte]

I am talking about any type of household item that could have a market for a cordless version. Say Singer decides to make a cordless sewing machine, do you think the tool companies would swoop in a make it before Singer gets there's to market, I don't think so. I don't know the need for a cordless sewing machine, but if it could work, a company like Singer could use a Dewalt, M18 or Makita battery.

Bosch manufactures kitchen appliances, so they would be an obvious fit.
maybe a hand mixer or hand blender using the Bosch 12v lithium batteries to avoid getting the cord in the mixing bowl.

 

[FMC1959]

Nailers. All the tool brands have cordless nailers. Should Senco, Max, Grex, Omer and all the others brands close up shop? No, I know Senco made their own. I can't speak for all the others, but rather than OEM'ing someone like Emerson to make a battery for them (because I doubt many of these companies would build the batteries in -house, adopt a battery from Dewalt or Milwaukee.

To me it would be a win-win for the tool maker, the battery brand adopted and us, the consumer. if in 10-15 years from now, all cordless items but 1000's of makers, were on M18 or other popular brands, it would be great for us.

 

[FMC1959]

Bosch manufactures kitchen appliances, so they would be an obvious fit.
maybe a hand mixer or hand blender using the Bosch 12v lithium batteries to avoid getting the cord in the mixing bowl.

Yes...battery tech keeps improving. We keep seeing more items go cordless that were never thought to be possible as cordless. If I was...example Milwaukee, I would be knocking on the door of so many brands, especially smaller guys that may not have the resources to expand on their own, to adopt an M12, M18 platform, or MX platform.

 

[dnschmidt]

Alright, look at it from MIlwaukee's point of view. One of the reasons a person would buy a Milwaukee air nailer is that they have a shitload of M18 or M12 batteries. So we (Milwaukee) supply batteries to Senco. Now MY CUSTOMER has the option of buying a Senco air nailer and only buying the batteries from me. **** that. I want the whole pie not just a piece of it. Did any of you guys ever go to business school?

 

[FMC1959]

Alright, look at it from MIlwaukee's point of view. One of the reasons a person would buy a Milwaukee air nailer is that they have a shitload of M18 or M12 batteries. So we (Milwaukee) supply batteries to Senco. Now MY CUSTOMER has the option of buying a Senco air nailer and only buying the batteries from me. **** that. I want the whole pie not just a piece of it. Did any of you guys ever go to business school?

Fine, but Milwaukee can't make everything. First their nailer line is limited compared to the dedicated nailer companies. Second, my aim was more at the multitude of items that are now coming on the market as cordless and Milwaukee just can't be bothered to get into yet another line of products.

 

[subroc]

I am talking about any type of household item that could have a market for a cordless version. Say Singer decides to make a cordless sewing machine, do you think the tool companies would swoop in a make it before Singer gets there's to market, I don't think so. I don't know the need for a cordless sewing machine, but if it could work, a company like Singer could use a Dewalt, M18 or Makita battery.

I don't believe the tool companies are all that worried about being first. I believe they want to get it right the first time. Now, don't get me wrong, sure they would !like to be the first to market but a company adding a few more items to a battery line just isn't worried about being first.

BTW, If you believe you have some innovation that these companies just haven't thought about, send them a letter or e-mail showing how they are doing it wrong.

 

[Mallen]

It would be cool. Sadly no one seems interested.

Bosch has a cordless "alliance" where they make batteries for a few specialized companies - none the average homeowner would every think to buy.

Metabo as well. (Not Metabo hpt though)