Tool Material
- Thread starter oldtools
- Start date
-B-
Well-known member
Too bad no such thong exists on the tool steels list any where in the world, it is nothing more than marketing hype. Most reputable tool sellers are not going to tell what specific tool steel or propitiatory steel mix the use.
rsanter
Well-known member
most tool steels are intended for you to machine your desired part out of and then harden. the steel used for tools like wrenches and ratchets are intended to be forged. a good portion of their strenth is derived from the heating, forging (work hardening) and then the cooling after that.
bob
bob
Vinko
Well-known member
This is a very interesting topic to me -- maybe the most interesting topic that only occasionally comes up here and I wish I had more info (and knowledge) to share.
I wonder if Armstrong had to publish their specs when they bid for the gov't contract?
I wonder if Armstrong had to publish their specs when they bid for the gov't contract?
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
The knives industry specified which material they used on their blade and charge accordingly. They specify steel like 440C, 154CM, AUS8, S30V, etc....
Are all the hand tools only make from iron based alloy? Are there any made from Nickel base or Cobalt base alloy. I know those are very expensive metal, but they are super strong. They are known as superalloy.
Are all the hand tools only make from iron based alloy? Are there any made from Nickel base or Cobalt base alloy. I know those are very expensive metal, but they are super strong. They are known as superalloy.
theWORLDSaNAIL
Well-known member
To find out what steel SO is using send a sample to a spec lab they'll send you a whole read out of the steels make up for a small fee. And also on the non iron base alloy tools there are several nick and cobalt tools for aero spaces and high energy electromagnetic field world. If you think SO is pricely you haven't seen anything a wrench in those line can cost upwards of 20 grand
HandyManny
Well-known member
This is absolutely correct. Even the best of the best tool steel will be worthless for tools if not properly heat treated and tempered.
HandyManny
Well-known member
Still marketing hype. Those manufacurers using the cold forged or cold pressed method will tell you that cold forging yields a more durable tool. It's all a matter of how they want to market their tools. It's amazing to me how some companies will use a cheaper method or cut corners in the process and them market that method as being better than the rest. Another example: I know of a local whiskey distiller in my state who does not age their whiskey, and they know people know they don't, but they turn that into marketing hype trying to make people believe that their stuff is better because it's not aged. Off subject, but an example.
Now having said that I will say that Wright (at least the older Wright tools) are of very good quality. But, have seen a couple of unforgivable and inexcusable flaws on some recently made Wright wrenches.
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HandyManny
Well-known member
All steel is Iron based. Steel is an alloy from Iron. Ever seen 154CM steel that has not been heat treated corectly or tempered right? I have. It's junk. But, when processed correctly, it's an excellent steel for cutting blades and knives.
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
that was posted because it states the steel used. it was in answer to the post that mfr's will not disclose the steel used to make thier tools.
while it's true that most all sockets are cold formed, most wrenches are hot forged.
TRTOOLSUPPLY
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2009
- Messages
- 506
Hi Handy Manny,
Do you mind telling me what were the "unforgivable and inexcusable flaws on some recently made Wright wrenches".........................Did you purchase them? or just saw them.
Where at?Sold by whom?
Do you mind telling me what were the "unforgivable and inexcusable flaws on some recently made Wright wrenches".........................Did you purchase them? or just saw them.
Where at?Sold by whom?
Every tool company has duds get thru from time to time and my guess is wright is no different.
Bolster
Well-known member
It really is odd, when you consider that cutlery mfgrs crow and strut about, regarding the steels they use, one bragging more cobalt and another more tungsten, etc.
Possibly the user base is not sophisticated enough to grok the difference between one steel and another? (Present company excepted, of course.)
MY GUESS...is that tool mfgrs use uninspiring, common, generic steels, which is why they don't talk about it.
But perhaps all this gopher has made me cynical.
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Autoguy
Well-known member
Grades of steel and uses in USA and Europe
Hex tool manufacturers do not all use the same type of alloy steel. Chrome vanadium, 1050 carbon steel, S2, and 8650 are all common grades in use.
Protanium® Steel is a proprietary alloy steel developed and used only by Bondhus. It is the hardest, most ductile, and longest wearing steel that exists in the hex tool industry.
8650 is the most common grade in use throughout the U.S. and the Far East. It does not have the hardness or ductility of Protanium® Steel
Chrome Vanadium is about comparable in quality to 8650. It is used primarily in Europe.
Chrome Moly is similar to Chrome Vanadium, but is somewhat stronger and harder. Because it is fairly expensive, manufacturers generally only use it on their higher grade and higher priced tools like ball head products, and substitute lower grades for their other tools. Europe and Japan are the primary users.
S2 is used by only a small number of manufacturers. It is harder than 8650, but it is also less ductile, more costly, and far more prone to shattering.
1050 carbon steel is low-grade steel that is inferior to those listed above. It is still used by some manufacturers in Europe and Asia.
Some of the factors that affect the performance of steel, and the tools manufactured from it, are: hardness, ductility, grain size, alloy composition, and heat treating. Metallurgists and tool makers understand that behind these characteristics stand the deeper concepts of lattice structure, bonding, crystal formation, dislocations, phase transformation, quench rates, and heat treating to mention just a few.
What these concepts mean, and how they all work together, is fundamental to understanding why Bondhus® tools work better, last longer, and are safer to use
Hex tool manufacturers do not all use the same type of alloy steel. Chrome vanadium, 1050 carbon steel, S2, and 8650 are all common grades in use.
Protanium® Steel is a proprietary alloy steel developed and used only by Bondhus. It is the hardest, most ductile, and longest wearing steel that exists in the hex tool industry.
8650 is the most common grade in use throughout the U.S. and the Far East. It does not have the hardness or ductility of Protanium® Steel
Chrome Vanadium is about comparable in quality to 8650. It is used primarily in Europe.
Chrome Moly is similar to Chrome Vanadium, but is somewhat stronger and harder. Because it is fairly expensive, manufacturers generally only use it on their higher grade and higher priced tools like ball head products, and substitute lower grades for their other tools. Europe and Japan are the primary users.
S2 is used by only a small number of manufacturers. It is harder than 8650, but it is also less ductile, more costly, and far more prone to shattering.
1050 carbon steel is low-grade steel that is inferior to those listed above. It is still used by some manufacturers in Europe and Asia.
Some of the factors that affect the performance of steel, and the tools manufactured from it, are: hardness, ductility, grain size, alloy composition, and heat treating. Metallurgists and tool makers understand that behind these characteristics stand the deeper concepts of lattice structure, bonding, crystal formation, dislocations, phase transformation, quench rates, and heat treating to mention just a few.
What these concepts mean, and how they all work together, is fundamental to understanding why Bondhus® tools work better, last longer, and are safer to use
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-B-
Well-known member
A lot of these supposed big manufacturers have been cough lying about the steel they use and the heat treat processors. One steel companies brand name is another's digit designation. Tool steels are not that sophisticated super steels ans air hardened steels are as they have greater tensile strength compared to forged in hardness/ strenght.
Gedore uses 31CRV3 ( = 1.2208 , SAE = ?) for wrenches + sockets
http://www.metalravne.com/selector/steels/31CRV3.html
http://www.metalravne.com/selector/steels/31CRV3.html
jkeyser14
Well-known member
That right there is a load of marketing ****. It can't be both the hardest and most ductile, they are exact opposites of each other. They could nitride / carburize the tool in order to harden just the surface of the material and leave a ductile core, but that is a heat treating process and not a inherent property of the grade of steel used.
kythri
Well-known member
How do you get a "proprietary" steel alloy? (I'm not a metallurgist, so don't call me on this, but) If their alloy calls for 12 parts iron, 2 parts carbon, 3 parts chrome and 4 parts nickel, is the competition somehow prohibited from mixing the same ingredients up? Does a patent cover such a thing?
Stuey
Well-known member
It only means that instead of grabbing off-the-shelf steel they developed their own fabrication method and are closely guarding their secret formula.
kythri
Well-known member
I can't imagine a tool company has come up with some miracle-steel that's measurably "better" than what's available to everyone else out there...
Were it really quantitatively better, they'd be selling their "formula" to everyone and their brother.
Stuey
Well-known member
Give 10 artists the same paints and brushes, and they'll no doubt produce 10 very different works of art.
It's my guess that Bondhus simply tweaked a few parameters until they produced a final product that met their design expectations and demands.
-B-
Well-known member
too bad Bondhus tools wear out so fast I switched to PB Swiss hexs and have not had to replace them yearly. Bondhus can spout all the marketing **** they want there tools are great for occasional use but for daily use they wear out far too fast. You are better off buying Allen brand hexs as they are a better bargain and last twice as long in daily use.
rinny_tin_tin
Well-known member
The history of steel is quite interesting - and equates more to alchemy and trial and error than to science. Sure - there is the material science that talks about crystal lattice, oriented-grain, etc...however, the real secret of steel has more to do with the hardening processes than the ratio of materials. Many of the heat treating processes used today are based on the trial and error results from antiquity. It is said that the ancient Samurai sword got its performance by "quenching in flesh of seven live human slaves." Of course - the finest blades are made of Damascus steel - an unusually pretty and odd looking material made by folding ductile steel over layers of carbon - again and again - and again. You get the best of both worlds - ductility and hardness!
Stuey
Well-known member
I was told that about Damascus steel not katana steel.
Everything else you said is dead accurate.
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rinny_tin_tin
Well-known member
What's katana steel? I need to google that now!
Stuey
Well-known member
katana - the type of swords samurai used. Somebody needs to watch more cartoons and action movies!
rinny_tin_tin
Well-known member
Haha...apparently I do.....!
theWORLDSaNAIL
Well-known member
Steel blends are patentable and changing any parameter in the make of an alloy effect an alloy properties. How an alloy or pure element is processed after the cast phase (heat treating, forging, etc) effects the material process. Steels history is filled with accidental break throughs the majority of new steels since the late 19 century have be based in scientific methods.
The Rusty Gear
Well-known member
Easy. You patent the "receipe". As Stuey mentioned, most times it is a tweak of an existing alloy or heat treatment. ie a 1040 steel with a tighter range on impurities, or slightly more manganese etc etc etc
Some other company making "regular" 1040 steel may also be making the patented "Wonder" 1040 if they happen to hit those specs. They just can't call it that, and they won't know if they have hit those specs or not.
I was Quality Manager at a foundry and we had a patent on a couple of alloy lines. Through many years in the business, we learnt a bunch of tweaks which gave us a better product, so we develped our own specifications and patented them.
So to answer your question, another company can legally "make" a patented material, but it is illegal for them to use the same recepie. This may make more sense if you know that steel recepies are never precise. Using your example of 12 parts iron, 2 parts carbon, 3 parts chrome and 4 parts nickel, the real world specicifation for Kythrialloy(pat pending) would probably look like:
11-14 parts iron
1-3 parts carbon (1-4 parts carbon if less than 2 parts chrome)
2.5-3.1 Parts chrome
2-5 parts nickel (up to 1.5 times the carbon)
And that would only be Kythrialloy. KythrialloyV would also have .5-1 parts Vanadium.
So you can see kow someone making a "similar" material could also be within the specifications of Kythrialloy.
This isn't even taking into consideration heat treatments . . . .
Tons of fun. 
HandyManny
Well-known member
Bought about 4 different metric sized replacements from Fastenal. The 19mm and the 15mm box ends on these particular combos was not off-set very much, something like 2° to 3° if that, almost looked flat even with the wrench beam. The other two wrenches had a more appropriate off-set angle to them as they should. I know that defects and flaws do occasionally get by QC, but I expect better from a company who bills themselves as being a cut above the rest of the tool makers. I have owned and used many Wright wrenches before, most made decades ago, never had such flaws.