Tool prices over time. Cheaper or more expensive?

[zkling]

This is a topic that really fascinates me. I enjoy reading through the old tool catalogs, specifically 1930's-1970's. Some manufactures catalogs show the price of the item. Usually compared to current new prices those listed prices seem to be very low at first glance, inflation not factored in.


As someone who's childhood was the 90's, I don't have the ability to remember anything but the current times. I started purchasing tools in my early teens or ~2000. Only 13 years prior to today, I know I have seen definite price changes in those few years, but I wonder what it feels like to see 30+ years of price changes. I've heard some people say that things have gotten more expensive over time. I've heard others say that things have gotten much cheaper over time.

From the many hours I have spent researching this topic, I have reached the conclusion that "back in the day" people were more willing to save up for one specific nice item and spend quite a bit of money (time at work) on said item. Compared to modern times where the average consumer mentality seems to be "I want everything super cheap, now".

Here is an example. Yesterday at a garage sale I picked up a nice craftsman bench grinder for $20. It was dated 1970 on the bottom. Looking up the 1970 craftsman catalog that grinder has a retail price of $49.99 in 1970. According to the following site, the minimum wage in 1970 was $1.45/h. So it would take a guy roughly 35 hours of work to pay for that bench grinder. Now fast forward to 2013, minimum wage is $7.25/h. A basic bench grinder at sears cost ~$49.99 equating to roughly 7 hours of work. Right around 1/5 of the time. If the same 35 hours of work from 1970 was carried over to 2013 that would roughly equate to $250 dollars. Which could get a person a smaller Baldor (considered high quality) grinder, new, today.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

Now if you use a common internet inflation calculator one could translate $49.99 in 1970 to ~$300 in 2013. If you asked the average DIY'er today, paying $300 for a bench grinder would be pretty absurd yet in 1970 that was a basic entry level grinder from a common tool supplier, Craftsman. Another example would be a pair of craftsman pliers in 1960 had an average retail of $3 each. Using the inflation calculator that would give a ~$22 in 2013. Yet majority of the current craftsman pliers are $12 and under each. Almost half of the 1960 "value".

http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm



Here is the question I pose to my fellow GJ members. How do you feel tool prices have changed over the years? Can you give an example of what the average pay was for a working man through the years of your life. Yes I realize this may date some members, that is not my intentions. Although there are multiple inflation calculators floating around the net the factors and math that work behind the scenes don't really tell the entire story. I like to try and break things down to a # hours worked = a certain item. A common factor that I think is a fair basis of comparison. If you can share specific first hand experience examples for different manufactures, tools and years that would be much appreciated. Please share your thoughts on this topic as I'm looking forward to the discussion.

 

[bobtheman04]

Remember that wages for working-class people have gone down drastically compared to the 70s. While the minimum wage was $1.45 in 1970, a lot of people were getting paid more than that.

My dad said he made about $13 as a machinist in the 70s. That would be 9x minimum wage, or $56/hour in todays money. I can tell you that nobody, not even union car company machinists, makes $50/hour (overtime notwithstanding). In fact, it wouldn't be uncommon to see machinists today in the $15 range, 2x minimum wage.

With global competition what it is today, a lot of people's wages have gone a lot closer to the minimum wage mark.

Also, aside from technological improvements in electric motors, what was the build quality like in the 1970s? I have several power tools from the 1970s, and they are mechanically bullet-proof compared to today's models (electrical components notwithstanding). That new $50 bench grind from Craftsman is probably a throw-away, whereas the older one could be repaired. So strictly comparing prices without taking into account the intrinsic value of the item purchased may not be a fair comparison. Compare it to Baldor's (made in USA) economy line grinder http://www.baldor.com/products/deta...Buffers&family=Grinders|vw_GrindBuff_Grinders, and you will see it is about $300, or $50 in 1970s money. I'm also curious as to the horsepower rating on your 1970 grinder. The $50 one today is 1/6 hp.

I doubt the $50 new Craftsman grinder you purchase today will last for 43 years.

So we've just gotten a lot better at making cheap (HF quality) tools. Quality tools probably cost about the same in 1970, but the consumer didn't have access to cheap (HF) tools because the Asian companies were not tooled up enough to saturate our market.

 

[Big Pete]

IMO, tools are cheaper now than they ever have been (relatively), especially machine tools and welding equipment. A lot of it is due to the far East production costs, and we can argue the quality pros and cons all day, but your average DIY/hobbyist can do far more now than ever before. Just for 1 item look at how many people have TIG sets now compared to even 10 years ago, let alone 20.

 

[oldtools]

Wage in China, Vietnam, Pakistan, etc is less than a dollar an hour.

 

[bobtheman04]

Anybody have a Snap-On or Proto catalog from the 1970s? That would be a good comparison.

 

[scaron]

i'm stocking up on the good stuff now because, if american history is a sign of things going forward, our purchasing power is only going to decline (further) in the future. no cheap junk for me, please.

 

[Polski-Chevy]

Nothing political to be said with this statement but taxes and energy costs were a lot lower too.

Last year I was at an estate sale, I bought an old Craftsman circular saw with a crown top metal carrying case for $10.

When I opened the case I found the Sears receipt with a total of $37.62, back in the 1960s had to be pretty salty

 

[lilredex]

No question... things are cheaper since the influx of imports.


You can go to PAL/HD, etc today and buy a quality set of SAE/Metric wrenches up to 3/4" for $10-11. That would be unheard of forty years ago. More like $150.

Lots of other examples out there. ....4 1/2" grinders??

 

[Tarheelgarage]

I know where this thread will go......so


IBTL

 

[dandan111]

Good comparison guys. Many ups and downs. I feel quality is down on most of our tools produced. Compare say snap on tool boxes. They are still about the same quality now as they were way back when. The craftsman bench grinder isn't a fare comparison. Let's keep the bargain china **** out.

 

[JoeFin]

I wish there was a definitive way to gauge the "Hours per Life" of tools, because from my experience I would say they are plummeting.

Even if cost stays the same over 30 years, compared to inflation, and increased wages to cost of tools has gone down. But as in cost of operating a vehicle over the course of its projected useful life span are we really saving anything.

My 2 Hp Craftsman Compressor has led a VERY hard life over the last 25 years and is still going strong running my roofing stapler today. Would never have thought I would be using it to provide all day long pneumatic support for CNCs and Surface Grinders, but that's what I do with it mostly now

A Milwaukie 1/2 Hole Shooter Drill bought approximately the same year was given to my son last year and is now taking up residence in his tool box fixing helicopters. I roughed electrical in a couple friends homes as well as all the around the garage duties with that thing

My point being Hrs vs: Cost

Sure you can get a $10 grinder but if it only runs 50 hrs vs: 500 hrs for the $50 grinder - you paid more for the cheap grinder

 

[scaron]

well, that's what i'm saying, the argument of TPTB has always been hey, it's OK that wages and benefits has stagnated or even gone down since the 1970s because you can go over to walmart of HF and get as much cheap imported chinese junk you want... all this imported sweatshop junk helps to maintain the illusion that our standard of living hasn't been hurt too much by all this "globalization" and NAFTA and so on. but if you look at good, high-quality stuff manufactured here or in europe where there are labor standards and a focus on quality and engineering, things that are built to last, it is just as expensive as it's always been, or even more so. thus, i'm saying, if you prefer the good stuff like me, you might as well get it now because it's not going to get any less expensive. and, yeah, we're not even talking about stuff like housing, vehicles, food, gasoline. cost of living's going up every day. over the last 20 years, fuel has what, quadrupled in cost? food has maybe doubled? can't hardly get out of a fast food joint without spending a tenner now'days. want a new car? it's at least twenty grand at the low end. maybe double what you'd have paid in the early 90s? thank god for the adjustment in housing prices because that was just blowing through the roof during the bubble years. i'm trying to get as much locked in now as i can. i wish the american people as a whole would develop some class consciousness and start holding their elected representatives accountable (again).

 

[rollscanhardly]

I know where this thread will go......so


IBTL

good discussion in this thread, interesting.

it always amazes me that people feel the need to be cute or whatever it is to post "ibtl", it's like really dude? that's your contribution???

besides passing their personal judgement on the content it's like wtf, go do something worthwhile.

 

[woody 73]

I am not so sure about "Quality going Down"; With all the new Technology things are improving by leaps and bounds. I remember the ratchets with the fewer teeth and today you have the much higher count and less of a swing to get the job done.

I remember back in the past your dollars went further then they do today; sure back then if someone wanted HF like tools you could get them just as easy as today, but instead of china they were coming from Japan.

I remember in the 1970's when I needed a textbook it cost a whooping $10.00 dollars, and that was a lot of money, today they are 10 times that and more.

Back then my parents working at very low paying jobs still could help me in school, today kids are leaving school with large debt that will take years to pay off, the money is just not going as far as back in the day.

 

[Nick Danger]

I would guess that tools are less expensive now. I'm not a tool expert, but I know how other things have changed.

Back in the 1980s, bicycles improved yearly because of improvements in metallurgy. It was amazing to watch. In the 1990s, cameras made vast improvements because computer aided design of lenses allowed manufacturers to do things that had been impossible a decade earlier. Improvements in metallurgy and design, as well as advances in engineering mean that I can go to the motorcycle dealer and buy a street bike that's more powerful than a full race bike from the 1980s. I suspect that tools are doing the same.

My desk phone is a Western Electric 300. I love it, it works great after 60+ years, and it's sturdy enough to be used for a murder weapon. But my Samsung cell phone has enough calculating power to send a man to the moon and it fits in my pocket. The Samsung even has a better microphone and speaker, for when I use it to call someone. The Samsung won't last 60 years, but I don't care. It gives me so much that I'm happy to replace it every few years.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Here is an example. Yesterday at a garage sale I picked up a nice craftsman bench grinder for $20. It was dated 1970 on the bottom. Looking up the 1970 craftsman catalog that grinder has a retail price of $49.99 in 1970.

As a person who acquired most of his tools in the 70s,I can tell you no one ever paid "retail" for anything from Sears. It was probably on sale often for $39.99 and once or twice a year for $29.99.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Anyone who doesn't think that the quality of tools has gone down should look at the socket, ratchets and wrenches I have from the 70s and compare them to what you hey today.

Sadly I had to exchange a 3/8" flex head ratchet. I wish I had got a repair kit. nowhere near as nice.

 

[wmartin]

Nothing political to be said with this statement but taxes and energy costs were a lot lower too.

Last year I was at an estate sale, I bought an old Craftsman circular saw with a crown top metal carrying case for $10.

When I opened the case I found the Sears receipt with a total of $37.62, back in the 1960s had to be pretty salty

Exactly.

One good place to check this out is old newspapers on Google news. Old power tools are especially pricey.

It's funny really. I have so much more good **** laying around the house than my dad ever did. In terms of stuff, I think people are tons better off than they used to be. On the flip side, we can be a lot poorer in terms of real estate...especially in desirable locations. It just seems a natural side effect of higher tech combined with too many people.

 

[mech-tech]

One thing to consider is ease of purchase. Back before eveyone sold everything, if you wanted something you had to go find a dealer and buy it there, or mail order it from places like sears. From what I hear, back around the 70's and early 80's, things like chain saws and pressure washers where quite pricey, but then again, you couldn't just go to walmart and buy one or run to lowes around the corner. Around my area, you went to an equipment dealer because they were the ones that sold equipment and the things related to equipment. Back then, black and decker made heavy duty tools, not store knock offs. Tools had more metal and less plastic, so cost was higher.

 

[CWP1616L]

From the many hours I have spent researching this topic, I have reached the conclusion that "back in the day" people were more willing to save up for one specific nice item and spend quite a bit of money (time at work) on said item. Compared to modern times where the average consumer mentality seems to be "I want everything super cheap, now".

I'm still one of those "back in the day" people. If I can't afford to get the quality tool I want, I'll wait until I get the money rather than substitute it with a cheaper version. I'm stubborn that way.

 

[Skin]

Anyone who doesn't think that the quality of tools has gone down should look at the socket, ratchets and wrenches I have from the 70s and compare them to what you hey today.

Thicker and heavier doesn't automatically mean it was better quality. Things like wrenches and sockets have thinned out intentionally to help with confined spaces. Another big factor is the fact that so much is made by automated machines these days which cuts way down on tolerance variations. It was plainly obvious old tools were hand ground when you measure them and find one side a few tenths thicker than the other. I've also seen a lot of old tools which have seen daily use missing good portions of their plating.


Many things were built to last, primarily because companies didn't substitute plastics and rubbers in machines like they do now, but I cannot agree that basic hand tools have gotten worse.

 

[d.mcfarland]

Strictly price based, tools are cheaper to purchase. The cost to create one unit is cheaper no matter where it is made (aka lower production costs). Quality can be argued all day and is mainly dependent on the tool itself, not in general.

 

[rick carpenter]

I think a "linear" approach to tool prices increase logic would only work for a single model tool from a mfr for a set price, with no account for ups and downs in the economy, supply/demand, improved models, better warranties, present condition, perceived customer quality rating, competition, ignorance/lack of concern of worth by seller or buyer, etc.

The variables, with supply and demand being the main one, are the key. For instance, I think ca 1930s-1940s Stanley planes are the best there are. Restoreable condition gives the best/fairest prices unless you pick up a bargain at a garage sale. Properly fettled condition will cost you. Made all shiney and polished and "new" (destroyed! in my opinion) will cost someone a lot but not get a dime from me. And a rusty donor with missing pieces will cost next to nothing unless the seller knows just how bad you need that one part. Cost for a restoreable? Reasonable. Worth? Priceless.

It's not a tool, but consider beryllium copper Ping golf clubs. They are considered the absolute tops among Ping collectors and vintage Ping clubs golfers. No longer made due to health concerns, they are thought to be softer and offer more control and just in some way (always) better. I think a matching number set will cost you a kidney these days. But in reality, what you want in your heart of hearts are ooohs and ahhhs from your golf partner when you pull one from the bag. And you'll ecstatically paaaaay for that! Now, substitute "Snap On" for BeCu Ping.

So, in the end, the only logic that will make me happy is if I'm OK with the amount of money I spent for the tool I got. And that's not really logic...

 

[Packard V8]

Used tools in general are much less expensive than their replacement cost. Younger guys aren't into DIY, whether around the home or car. I can buy good used woodworking, plumbing, mechanics tools and machines, whatever, for much less than they would have cost 20-30 years ago in constant dollars.

The one thing which has gotten drastically less expensive is inch sockets and wrenches.
Everyone wants metric, so used inch tools are going for much less than their cost of replacement with new.

jack vines

 

[plier_able]

I'm with the 'they are cheaper' crew. Tools certainly seem cheaper now in Oz than some time ago and this is largely because of Chinese imports.

But the quality stuff is also cheaper - although not by as much.

 

[justanengineer]

Remember that wages for working-class people have gone down drastically compared to the 70s. While the minimum wage was $1.45 in 1970, a lot of people were getting paid more than that.

^^^This. Its one thing to look at catalog prices and pass judgement about how things are "cheaper" now, but if my father's any judge they certainly arent. He started buying truck brands new in the 50s and continued on up into the 80s. By the mid-late 80s he was out of it bc he couldnt afford it any longer despite being decades into his career and making much more money numerically. He made more, but his buying power had dropped dramatically.

 

[zkling]

Wow guys, great input and discussion, please keep it coming. Very informative.

Remember that wages for working-class people have gone down drastically compared to the 70s. While the minimum wage was $1.45 in 1970, a lot of people were getting paid more than that.

My dad said he made about $13 as a machinist in the 70s. That would be 9x minimum wage, or $56/hour in todays money. I can tell you that nobody, not even union car company machinists, makes $50/hour (overtime notwithstanding). In fact, it wouldn't be uncommon to see machinists today in the $15 range, 2x minimum wage.

Hi bob, thanks for taking time to write that very insightful post. That is exactly what I was looking for, first hand info that the calculators don't really account for. Very eyeopening for me.

Anybody have a Snap-On or Proto catalog from the 1970s? That would be a good comparison.

Yea, they are very easy to access online. PM me if you can't find them. The downside is that (to my knowledge) they didn't list prices like the craftsman catalogs did. Well, the VERY old ones did list price, but post war Snap On catalogs did not. I think they left that up to the distributor to release the price.

I'm still one of those "back in the day" people. If I can't afford to get the quality tool I want, I'll wait until I get the money rather than substitute it with a cheaper version. I'm stubborn that way.

I'm not sure if I would call that stubborn, or at least not in a negative way. My parents were older so they had and instilled that mentality with me. Quality over quantity, you save up for what you want. As much as I try to practice that sometimes the quality item just isn't an option so either the used (my choice) or low quality market is the solution.

 

[Bikes&Bowties]

Everyone is looking at lower grade consumer brands. They only change to fit the market... If you look at snapon. I believe their quality has gone up... I would bet money a wrench or ratchet from the 50's is much weaker and has a less durable finish than what is being marketed today. Now that's only an uneducated opinion but they are proud to make quality tools and they have better technology to do so

 

[bcradio]

..... Now, substitute "Snap On" for BeCu Ping......

Why would I substitute Snap-On (A Brand) for BeCu (A line under the Ping brand)?

 

[sberry]

Tools have gone down in price and up in quality. You can buy a world class wrench set from Walmart about 99% as good as the best for 25%, Stevie Wonder couldn't tell them apart.

Even a cheap dollar wrench is pretty good these days, there is no room for most junk. It used to be a flea mkt adjustable was pure junk for 3$, now you cant hardly find one but for 4 or 5$ can get one made from the same blank as top of the line. No one is willing to spend 3 when the spread has shrunk.

The cost of making good steel had dropped, the difference so low that in many cases its cost prohibitive to carry 2 lines,,, cheaper to let a nickel go as it is to carry 2 lines. Say 10 wrenches, take 2 blanks, the 2 ugliest ones come down the line shipped to Cman or Wallmart, 7 others to various vendors and one to truck tool gang, maybe double chrome or better polish done to it,,, same wrench.

 

[sberry]

It looks like the ATD sold at auto parts stores are from the old SK or maybe Fuller die and I see it must be the same blank as Irwin. I have at least 10 brands and its about the best designed wrench of them all.

 

[DCarr]

people want to make Cadillac wages and pay Pinto prices

 

[wrenchr]

Around 2003 my Wife ordered me a GF936 snap on ratchet from snap on and it was $67.00, they are now around $90.00 I think.

 

[Wakefield]

Seems like I remember that the Snap On catalog did not have price but I think they used to have a price list booklet to go along with the catalog-perhaps cheaper to release a new price list rather than a whole new color catalog

I think the most expensive tools tend to get more expensive but the middle line and lower line tools get less expensive (adjusted for inflation)

rather than cheap imports the real competition for the truck brands might be Japan and Germany (brands such as KoKen Hazet and KTC (nepros)) but I would think that for a serious professional mechanic using the tools hard the truck service would count because of warranty issues (if they have a good driver/dealer)-don't all brands break sometimes when used to the max?

 

[wrenchr]

Unless I'm misremembering, they don't sell the 36 tooth ratchets anymore. They've been bumped down to the Williams brand. So, you could buy the same thing as your old ratchet for about $30 shipped.
http://www.toolsdelivered.com/view_cart.asp
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DNV4Y4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

According to the BLS inflation calculator, $67 in 2003 would equal $85 now.

For $92, you can buy the Snap-on GF80, which has replaced the 36 tooth series. So, it's gone up in price a few dollars over the $85 adjusted-for-inflation price, but I think most people would agree that it's also a significantly better ratchet than the old 36 tooth.

I know they were replaced by the 80 tooth design but that is a helluva price hike.

 

[d.mcfarland]

I know they were replaced by the 80 tooth design but that is a helluva price hike.

United States manufacturing costs went up during that time also, don't forget!

 

[Polski-Chevy]

You may want to re-read my previous post. As I note, when you adjust for inflation, it's really only a $7 price hike.

I suppose you could claim "that is a helluva inflation rate," because inflation actually accounts for the vast majority of the increase in price.

Absolutely, 2003 I remember less than $2 a gallon for gas

 

[wornoutoldman]

If you compare apples to apples, the price of everthing has gone up, and for most US workers, wages have stagnated or gone down. I complain about this all the time. And then the wife chimes in, as if on cue, and doing her bet impression of me with "I remember when a full size candy bar was a nickel" Whaddya gonna do? Just gotta **** it up.

 

[kc-steve]

Remember that wages for working-class people have gone down drastically compared to the 70s. While the minimum wage was $1.45 in 1970, a lot of people were getting paid more than that.

My dad said he made about $13 as a machinist in the 70s. That would be 9x minimum wage, or $56/hour in todays money. I can tell you that nobody, not even union car company machinists, makes $50/hour (overtime notwithstanding). In fact, it wouldn't be uncommon to see machinists today in the $15 range, 2x minimum wage. . . .

Wow guys, great input and discussion, please keep it coming. Very informative.



Hi bob, thanks for taking time to write that very insightful post. That is exactly what I was looking for, first hand info that the calculators don't really account for. Very eyeopening for me. . . .

It is not accurate to use the old minimum wage as a baseline for determining anything today. Minimum wage has gone through many changes, some increases and other times not keeping up with inflation. It has been accurately argued that minimum wage hurts low income people rather than helps them, therefore the different changes over time.

Even inflation has been in question as being an accurate measurement. It is based upon a specific "basket" of goods and services, which do change over time. Today, I think even gasoline and energy costs have been dropped from the official government measurement, so it isn't highly inflationary. The Federal government uses the measurement to keep transfer payments such as social security relevant in the current economy, which it is not.

I would say tools have decreased in price over time when comparing how much work time an individual has to perform in order to purchase specific tools. That is Adam Smith's original "Labor Value" of price determination from the 1700s. The primary reason for the lowered prices is due to improvements in manufacturing, technology and techniques.

If your wages disagree with my assessment then maybe you should talk to your employer, but keep in mind that there may be 100 or so willing to take your place. YMMV

Steve

 

[wrenchr]

You may want to re-read my previous post. As I note, when you adjust for inflation, it's really only a $7 price hike.

I suppose you could claim "that is a helluva inflation rate," because inflation actually accounts for the vast majority of the increase in price.

You may want to re-read mine, $67.00 to around $90.00.