Tool quality matters a lot

[brookscooper]

I know you know that. But let me tell you a short story.
I am fabbing an elevator (material lift). Just using plain old steel and it's functional so I don't care toooo much about weld appearance.

A buddy of mine and I share tools that aren't used that often. So, I own the plasma cutter and he owns the MIG unit. The MIG is a Clarke 180EN.

Perfectly adequate. Well, during this job the feed hose in the trigger assembly developed a snag so I replaced the hose. Happened again with the new feed hose so I told him "done with this. Not buying more parts for this POS." Snagged even though I kept the hose from kinking, didn't let people step on it, etc. Whatever.

I scored a new-to-me Millermatic 211. Made first welds with it tonight.

It's like going from a 125cc scooter to a superbike. OMG!! Amazing! Same technique and skill produces cleaner welds, faster. It's much easier to put wire in, all the controls are well thought out.

So, if you need a tool, especially a power tool remember "The heartbreak of low quality continues long after the pleasure of low price is forgotten."

The Clarke isn't bad but it can't compare to the Miller. Holy COW!!!

 

[waggie]

Just went through this with some carbide inserts for my boring bar. Cheap $3 made-in-who-knows-where cuts like **** (came with the tool). $13 high(er) end carbide insert? practically mirror finish.

same cutting radius, same material, depth of cut, feed speed, spindle speed. I literally just shut the lathe off, jump in the car and bought another insert, put it on (didn't even have to take the boring bar off), and turn the lathe back on with the same setting.

 

[ATC]

Miller Blue is the only color allowed in my shop! I love my Syncrowave and MM180

 

[4x4gearhead]

Miller Blue is the only color allowed in my shop! I love my Syncrowave and MM180

x2 At work miller is all we use. I own a millermatic 135 for home, hope to get a 250/251 at a later date.

 

[lilscorpion]

So, if you need a tool, especially a power tool remember "The heartbreak of low quality continues long after the pleasure of low price is forgotten."

The Clarke isn't bad but it can't compare to the Miller. Holy COW!!!

I learned this a long time ago in a similar situation. It also redefined the way I purchase tools. Whats odd to me is that some never learn the lesson for some reason.

 

[sberry]

Yes, with certain types of tools it matters more and there is more chances for difference and the savings are different. I can see by the general state of confusion here that its hard to make that value call. And its hard to figure where the difference is. With less critical steels the quality has shot up, wrenches, sockets even and some bits like in screwdrivers. Later.

 

[juwasco]

My father always taught me to spend the most money on good clothes good food and good tools. You can't go wrong buying quality.

 

[sberry]

These days much of it may be 2 level, many are, we got a pallet of bits and a pallet of handles in each level and brand. If one breaks you replace it with another cheap one, the higher price you sold it for all the better.

I see that 7750 grinder 30 day money back and 2 year warranty. As for the welder yes there is a difference. Its one of the things/fields that has been oustanding and poster children for American business. It cost a little more to make a better thing,,, and its not huge but it effects margins but these thinga are sold real reasonable and they (owners and companies that aquired these root companies,, ITW owns Miller etc) left the gang in charge of making and selling welders in charge of making and selling welders.

You can call 800 in Troy and talk to the engineer that designed it. They got rid of a ton of food chain and put some easy savings in to the product. The price has all but remained steady until a well deserved recent raise and more models that worked better came along. You can buy the same model Lincoln at Menards or Lowes for same or less than I bought it for 20 yrs ago. Miller made a few things under different labels, I think its gone now, good,,, !!!!!!

You didnt have to pay 10 x for the top brand, there are 3 or 4 worldwide all good and all competitive, super, so much that its foolish to buy a rebrand non standard, invest in anything not able to be considered disposable, the differences here were percentage points to a consumer and not real multiples,,, bargain for the guy that buys one.

Why pay 2 x off a truck for a pos when you can have the real deal for half,,,,,,,,,,,, Way different value situation than a common hand tool where a 20 will get a good set of end wrenches. Different again when tool specific, same 20 only gets one good pair of pliers depending on who the vendor is.

 

[sberry]

Quality welding equipment is so well made that vendors have little risk and can reduce margins competitively, look at list prices and street.

People get me wrong on occasion, I love the way the tool truck and that company do biz, they do it just like they should, they really do not discount and they should not, it would be bad business for them, they would have to make and move more product for the same $, they are probably getting all they can now, they got bean counters.

What Snap On should do is an entirely different question from a functional economical view. If I am paying I will stop at a flea mkt or used tool store and pick up a good Proto for a dollar before I would try to chase down a tool truck while waving a couple 20's.

Paid for 5 minutes in to the first job with it.

 

[sberry]

Quality is subjective and speculative. 30 yrs ago, maybe even 20 I would have jumped up and down and said it aint so but margins were less,,, a good import adjustable was 20 off the shelf and a Proto 30 the Proto got the go but today a good import even retail in welding type store 20 and brand 40 but,,, the one that is 20 retail can be had for less than 10 and is as fine a wrench in its type that I have ever used.

You wipe the label off and toss it in an Ironworker gang box and no one could tell the difference. In fact I think not only is it not inferior but is the base model subject to brand stamp for 3/4 of the wrenches sold in its class.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I remember using a friend's Chicago Electric welder years ago, what a piece of **** it was.

 

[Hiball]

Lol... We have went from miller to adjustable wrenches to grinders, threw in some business planning and included Snap on all in less than 10 posts.

Don't mix alcohol with da meds..

 

[sberry]

Everyone just assumes because they spend more they are getting a better product today, sometimes its the same,,, not the case for the welding machine. There is something fundamentally different in it. This gap is now narrowing with the advent of the inverter, allowing better machines cheaper again.

 

[woody 73]

Hiball I will try and stay on topic although reading some of the above posts I got rather confused call it my old age acting up.

Tool quality matters...yes Virginia their is a Santa Claus tool quality does matter (but not the end of the story).

About three or four weeks ago someone on the GJ pointed out a big tool auction in my home town of Central "AHIA" so I went to scope out the big sale.

The guy was an engineer that had the most amazing elecrtical set-up in his basement running to his Machines and he had a fantastic trolley system for moving heavy steel to his lathe ang mill. long story short version 85% of the tool sale was from China and the other 15% was from the USA. Yes quality matters but sometimes in the hands of a pro they can turn out fantastic things no matter where the item is made.

 

[Hiball]

Hiball I will try and stay on topic although reading some of the above posts I got rather confused call it my old age acting up.

Tool quality matters...yes Virginia their is a Santa Claus tool quality does matter (but not the end of the story).

About three or four weeks ago someone on the GJ pointed out a big tool auction in my home town of Central "AHIA" so I went to scope out the big sale.

The guy was an engineer that had the most amazing elecrtical set-up in his basement running to his Machines and he had a fantastic trolley system for moving heavy steel to his lathe ang mill. long story short version 85% of the tool sale was from China and the other 15% was from the USA. Yes quality matters but sometimes in the hands of a pro they can turn out fantastic things no matter where the item is made.

Absolutely Woody.. Lets not allow everything turn into a USA versus the World debate (Especially in regards to anything with USA Electronics.. Gone for the most part, probably not coming back/TheEnd).. I can't speak for everyone, but in my lifetime I've seen the changes that have come along in regards to Import/domestic tools. I'm also the owner of a Clarke mig welder, it was the first mig I ever bought and like the OP. It was night and day when I stepped up to a miller, not only in regards to quality of weld that was being put out, but customer service, parts etc..... Does that mean that the occasional user can't stick 2 pieces of steel together with a Clarke? Absolutely not... There is a difference between what the occasional user needs and the guy melting steel on a daily basis. Anyone that says differently.. Hasn't had to sit and wait for there welder to cool off so they can weld again or noticed the weld strength change during a Simple bead run. I own tools from every Era, probably every country that has ever produced a hand tool, I prefer Domestic brands (when feasible)I don't care that I might be able to save money by buying "Brand X" I choose based on my values, not the values of others.. I try and buy my specialty tools from companies who thrive in that area, I want service after the sale...I don't want someone to hand me a replacement, I want to know they care about "why" that tool failed and there gonna look into it.

 

[sberry]

I care about how well it works and if its cheap its a bonus and a huge incentive to step up my infractructure. If I can buy something at a price that is a no brainer to save or make some money I am all over it. The price and the quality change the equation. Lots easier to make return on a 4$ wrench vs a 40 in a lot of cases. The Miller has several factors that enhance the value but I could care less about forensic service on a 2$ wrench I busted hitting it with a sledge hammer, most of that should be obvious.

 

[Hiball]

I care about how well it works and if its cheap its a bonus and a huge incentive to step up my infractructure. If I can buy something at a price that is a no brainer to save or make some money I am all over it. The price and the quality change the equation. Lots easier to make return on a 4$ wrench vs a 40 in a lot of cases. The Miller has several factors that enhance the value but I could care less about forensic service on a 2$ wrench I busted hitting it with a sledge hammer, most of that should be obvious.

Comparing a $2 Wrench that "Busted" while hitting it with a Sledge hammer and a 220V Mig Welder? Is Very Obvious.. btw, As far as that goes "IMO" trying to compare any Hand tool to one of todays complex Mig Welders is Silly. And Please.. Lets not go down that Road of trying to compare Hand tools... Its is a Never ending Road of "Wasted Bandwidth". If swinging "Brand X" makes you Happy, Do it.. If your a "Brand Y" type of Person.. So be it.

 

[Danglerb]

China took a long time to figure out electricity IMHO, they didn't know what corners they could cut and get away with it, and that was true all the way down the supply chain, so it took a long time to sort out, but its getting better.

Story on NPR today, family members buying baby food in the US and shipping it back to China. China only allows each person to ship a small amount into China, so extended families have each member ship one carton.

 

[NC-Fordguy]

WOW

I've been using a re-badged 110v clarke welder for years for sheet metal applications. I didn't know until now it was such a POS.

While it's not made in China where we know POS stuff comes from, I now know to add Italy to that group.

I'm glad though that my Lincoln 220v welder should be ok since it's made in the USA

 

[sberry]

A point I was trying to make is that,,, even though the wrench and the machine dont seem to have much in common they do, in todays world, mot so much money to be made in squeezing a pinch on a wrench and in manuy case its the same wrench with a different name. Hobart and Miller do some of this, often this public opion stiffles inovation, remember when no one would buy cheap plastic, now its the norm,,, but there is some money to be saved on the welding machine and you can not simply change the pricepoint and put it in an off brand box and sell it for less than it costs to make it.

When you do this you cant make it work as good as it does. Common hand tools a different story and in fact would cost money to make it cheaper,,, this is why I harp on the B&D 4 1/2 grinder as a bargain, the cheap parts they did change to actually helped it and due to shere numbers, $ it didnt make sense to change to a cheaper one for the internal parts, they ****** the same guts, change jacketsa,, spend 30 on one,, spend 50 or spend 100,,, same grinder. Stanley wrench, buy it at walmarts or anywhere else, can buy it under hi prices, same tool.

Miller or Hobart welder,,,, not a change to it if you could find it under another jacket. Lincoln,,, has some ******* model numbers for different markets but same machine,,, Clarke,,, not the same machine, doesnt work the same, it will work but not the same. Today you can buy a 2$ wrench works like a 50 one, cant buy a 100$ machine that works like a 500 one. Thermal Arc is really hitting the button, they are getting to a 600$ machine that works like a 1200 one.

I havnt use an Eastwood, its super cheap in comparison but the savings between it and a Hobart are relatively minor and the Hobart is a sure bet, can get a 190 maybe for 700?

Doesnt make great economic sense to save a pinch in the grand scheme but the design of the Hobart cant be beat. As it relates to combo wrenches,,, I got 10 grand sitting in my toolbox,, the guy bought it retail off the truck got 110, looks pretty good regardless of its "resale" value and 95% of it just sits there.

 

[Kevin54]

I found out years ago.....buy what you need and don't depend on someone else. Nine times out of ten, just like the OP's example, when you need something and you have a share deal like that, the other person doesn't take as good of care of their stuff as you do. Or at least that's what I always find. I'm not REAL **** about tools and such, but when I want to use something, I don't want to have to borrow it. I have a nephew who tried to put the screws to me. His FIL has a skidloader that he rents out, but it stays at my nephews business. I had to rent it one day, so I got the loader, got it home, pulled it off of the trailer, made it to the backyard and it wouldn't move. I got off and looked and it busted a hydraulic line. So I call him up and tell him what happened. He said that the hose had been rubbing, so he knew about it. Damn if he didn't try to pin the cost on me for a new hose. My wife told me to not rent it off of him anymore and if I need a skidloader, just go find a decent used one and buy it and quit depending on other people.

I made the mistake of buying a trailer off of a guy. It was my friends FIL. His FIL bought a two car enclosed trailer, my buddy bought a smaller enclosed trailer, and I bought the FIL's open car trailer. It was one of those deals that if someone needed a trailer, each of us had a different type to use. That only lasted one year as they both needed the open car trailer I had a few times for long hauls. Eff that, I sold mine. So now, they can't ask to borrow the trailer nor can they ask about borrowing the tractor of mine because of no way to haul it. I don't mind helping, but damn, they make as much money as I do.

 

[srmofo]

Try To Find Parts Or Consumables For Those Chinese Machines Locally. Now Imagine Doing That In 5 Or 10 Years

 

[Hyster Gareth]

Tool quality is very important. My Dad said to me " Buy **** buy twice " I have found that to be very true!

 

[brookscooper]

So, my point wasn't to bash the Chinese stuff - they've come along way. I've Harbor Freight tool chests which fit my needs just fine. The Clarke is English made, not chinese. But, you gotta balance your frequency of use, need for precision and cost.

If I welded once or twice a year I'd probably keep buying parts for the Clarke and live with it. But I'm on my 3rd spool of wire for this job (Clarke couldn't handle the 8" spools) alone.

I have a couple Harbor Freight socket wrenches that I choose to use when it's a light duty job, or there's a chance of F@#$%# up the wrench. I wouldn't buy a low-cost torque wrench, but a low cost crescent - maybe.

 

[wafrederick]

I finally found a good set of drill bits,ordered yesterday.Went through an auto parts store flier and found a set of Knkut drill bits in there made here in the USA,not cheap at $165.00.Same with taps and dies,I won't buy the $20.00 made in China sets.I admit the Germans make quality tools too.Knipex pliers and the Fein Multimaster are two the Germans make very well.

 

[oldtools]

It is pretty obvious that high quality is better than low quality and everybody prefer high quality. It is just a matter how much quality can someone afford or need.

 

[sberry]

Almost all the low cost crescents with any kind of branding, even like NAPA and ATD are as good as any anymore, You got to go out of your way to find a real junk one even at flea mkts, someone will buy junk if there is a 20$ difference in price but when it gets down to a dollar or 2 people will pick a better one.

I wouldn't be a fan of Sears if it was 8 or 10$ like an SK and if a guy wanted to spend 30 you might as well get the big brand name to go with it but at 2$ I like it.

If you re badged the MM211 at 2500 or 3K from a truck it would make a 4 or 500 off brand generic feeder similar to the Clarke look a lot better but at the price the Miller is there is no sense not to own the best especially as sophisticated as it is and where performance could be an issue as well as some features....... which,,,, by the way were added to allow for some price jumps as well as be appealing as a sales tool.

One of the best deals in the welding world is a simple Hobart 190 and if alum is never in the question a Lincoln T version from the box stores. Have seen them cheaper than they were 20 yrs ago.

 

[sberry]

Try To Find Parts Or Consumables For Those Chinese Machines Locally. Now Imagine Doing That In 5 Or 10 Years

I agree but there is a point at which it can be bought cheap enough that its irrelevent 10 yrs from now,,, if you paid the same today that would be a greater issue,, but when you buy something that cheap do you expect the same thing? Do I pay 4 times today so I can buy a part in 10 yrs that would cost more than the replacement machine which may be way better by then?

 

[sberry]

The warranty beauty of welding machines is that they are so good that its rarely needed. We are seeing some componant pricing in repairs beyond that period that make the machines obsolete cost wise to fix, even units with low use hours. I am hesitant to put a 880$ part in a 10 yrs old machine I can buy all new for 1600. So much for parts.

 

[sberry]

You love the diversion now, wait till 3 yrs off warranty with 80 hrs on the clock and it shits some logic chip. The post or thread will have a different ring to it, bet money.

Having said that still worth the bet, the machine works better than the clone. Same for torches, a good brand name torch lasts so long and the difference between good and not so good is fairly minor. You can walk in to a real welding store and buy a decent torch set off the shelf for 250 or maybe less. No effort shopping, not getting robbed.

 

[Hiball]

WOW

I've been using a re-badged 110v clarke welder for years for sheet metal applications. I didn't know until now it was such a POS.

While it's not made in China where we know POS stuff comes from, I now know to add Italy to that group.

I'm glad though that my Lincoln 220v welder should be ok since it's made in the USA

Come on Now... Did anyone say the 110V Clarke wasnt capable of sticking Sheet metal together? Geez.. for someone who is always complaining about Coo debates you sure like to.. Well ill just leave it at that.

BTW.. I still own my Clarke 110 Welder, And due to its Size, Its suitable for Patch welding in my Garage. Any Yes.. Your 220V welder has its Uses also.. Although i like my Old Powermatic versus the Newer Tombstone welders. It probably has twice as much copper in it.. But im not skilled enough to weld patch panels with it.. LOL.. It would have more holes when i was done, than when i started.

 

[Hiball]

I agree but there is a point at which it can be bought cheap enough that its irrelevent 10 yrs from now,,, if you paid the same today that would be a greater issue,, but when you buy something that cheap do you expect the same thing? Do I pay 4 times today so I can buy a part in 10 yrs that would cost more than the replacement machine which may be way better by then?

I know you like to throw Numbers around.. Blindly IMO.. But the Handful of Welders ive Rebuilt havent required anywhere near the "Cost of a Replacement Machine".. Obviously Every situation is Different, Not Every machine is Worthy of a New Circuit board or Drive Motor etc.. You need to sit down and put "Pencil to Paper" and see if its financially feasible to invest in Parts. Personally? Im the type that like's to have that Option Available (which you get with Miller Customer Support), I was Brought up with the Mentality to Fix what was Broken, Not this New "Fangled" movement where its OK to just to just buy another one.. I guess it just depends on what Era or how you where Raised. <--- and that doesn't mean one way is better than the other.

 

[RCStocker]

Quality welding equipment is so well made that vendors have little risk and can reduce margins competitively, look at list prices and street.

People get me wrong on occasion, I love the way the tool truck and that company do biz, they do it just like they should, they really do not discount and they should not, it would be bad business for them, they would have to make and move more product for the same $, they are probably getting all they can now, they got bean counters.

What Snap On should do is an entirely different question from a functional economical view. If I am paying I will stop at a flea mkt or used tool store and pick up a good Proto for a dollar before I would try to chase down a tool truck while waving a couple 20's.

Paid for 5 minutes in to the first job with it.

All my tools are used. I got all my gearwrenches new because they were on sales that were so low even the used ones were more. Every tool I own and 80% of the machinery I own is use. Some is new used but still new. Proto makes dang good tools and you can put sets togeter for $1 a wrench and the larger $2 I have been doing it for years. After 50 years of yard sales, barn and farm sales along with auctions I have almost every tool made and pennies on the dollar. When the swap meets hit I started reselling them becaue I found so many. I only run down a tool truck to get one replace. That has not been very many times. The companies make damn good tools and if used properly they just don't ware out. Sure a ratchet will go but that is normal.

Some weeks I come home with good sockets 3 for a dollar or 2 for a dollar
A fool and his mony are soon parted. Good tools are the only thing to buy. You will bust your slef up using cheap ones and then get PO'ed

 

[srmofo]

So, my point wasn't to bash the Chinese stuff - they've come along way. I've Harbor Freight tool chests which fit my needs just fine. The Clarke is English made, not chinese. But, you gotta balance your frequency of use, need for precision and cost.

.

Im aware of that, the title of your thread was about quality. Chinese welders are not quality welders. Worse yet, when they do break even if it is some small seemingly irrelevant part , you dont even have the option to repair it because spare parts are not made.

Your machine was a clarke and you had the option to repair it even though you choose not to. When purchasing a machine like that at a lower cost and it still has support for it, then I think its a wise choice.

When you pay 1/3 of the cost of a high end machine, make do with less than optimal operation, and then it dies after a few short years where are you at? Do you pony up and buy another POS (at which point you are now at 2/3 the cost of a high end machine) or do you **** it up and buy that high end machine (where you are now at 4/3 the cost of said machine). No you simple look at the lower priced options that a reputable company like miller has to offer (Hobart) and go with it since its usually less than 25% more.
That was the only point I was trying to make

Besides my diversion, I also have a Hobart MVP 210 which I picked up for $725 shipped IIRC might have been $825.

Dont even get me started on their duty cycle.

 

[sberry]

725 is a deal considering how good the 210 is. Yu will never wear out anything in it out besides a couple tips. They wont make one that welds better any time soon.

 

[ZRX61]

Miller Blue is the only color allowed in my shop! I love my Syncrowave and MM180

MM210, Syncrowave 200 & Spectrum 375 here.

 

[sberry]

I have some engine drives also. One I should sell.

 

[sberry]

Just ike wheres Waldo, one white, 2 blue and 2 red in the center pic.