Tools from the old world

[Jure]

bought unior open end wrenches... dimensions are fu..ed up,if you buy a set you will have 5 keys with the same size lol

dimensions : 8 x 10, 10 x 11, 11 x 13, 12 x 14, 17 x 19, 19 x 22, 22 x 24, 24 x 27, 30 x 32 i dont get it why they made it like that...

i got...

 

[Trucky]

@Trucky
No offence. By average quality I meant compared to Knipex, look at some pics I have posted on page 330 of this thread. If you look at Home Depot prices of Klein tools and Online prices of Knipex, the Knipex is maybe 10% more compared to Klein. Try Knipex Cobra or even better Knipex wrench pliers and I garantee you will never touch Channellock again! I know, it happened to me already!
So, if you are looking to upgrade, by all means get Knipex, it's a life-long investment that will itself pay-off at least a dozen of times. Just make sure these tools do not walk away from you

I have both! Channellock for the really rough stuff and Knipex for everything normal use. I consider Knipex better more for their innovative products (cobolt, cobra, etc.) than the quality of the metal. And I do like the comfort grips, but they add a lot to the price.

Jure, maybe they just want you to pay more? I always thought they went size-by-size, never repeating one for efficiency. That's news to me.

 

[Jure]

Jure, maybe they just want you to pay more? I always thought they went size-by-size, never repeating one for efficiency. That's news to me.

yep i tought the same!! since you have to pay around 20 USD / wrench...

 

[BigRussian_from_NYC]

Average quality? Man, you must have some nice tools! I like Klein better too, but they're even more expensive. I prefer to get the Channellock versions (for price and quality, but also because home depot is a long ways away and they sell the Klein ones )

And I kind of prefer Dewalt be made in Mexico. It's not China like a lot of brands, or Malaysia like Bosch. At least it's sort of close.

I was thinking of getting some of the Dewalt 18v stuff, how's it working out for you?

I have both! Channellock for the really rough stuff and Knipex for everything normal use. I consider Knipex better more for their innovative products (cobolt, cobra, etc.) than the quality of the metal. And I do like the comfort grips, but they add a lot to the price.

Jure, maybe they just want you to pay more? I always thought they went size-by-size, never repeating one for efficiency. That's news to me.

@Trucky,
You have some nice tools too!!!

 

[Trucky]

Well I would have never bought 90% of those unless I had discovered this forum

This website has "made" me spend a lot of money, but I feel like I'm getting something good that will last a very long time now. It's worth it! I hope

This thread specifically has brought my attention towards European brands I didn't know existed. Knipex, Wiha, Wera, Facom, etc. All new to me.

 

[BigRussian_from_NYC]

Knipex 8" diagonal cutters and mini-bolt cutters (compound action):

<a href="http://s1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/?action=view&current=S1050036.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/S1050036.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/?action=view&current=S1050033.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/S1050033.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

More of Knipex Electrician's pliers:
<a href="http://s1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/?action=view&current=S1050032.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/S1050032.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Felo Ergonic insulated screwdrivers:
<a href="http://s1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/?action=view&current=S1050037.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/S1050037.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/?action=view&current=S1050039.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/S1050039.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Witte insulated screwdrivers:
<a href="http://s1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/?action=view&current=S1050040.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/S1050040.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/?action=view&current=S1050042.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z416/BigRussian_NYC/S1050042.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

 

[Altec]

Well I would have never bought 90% of those unless I had discovered this forum

This website has "made" me spend a lot of money, but I feel like I'm getting something good that will last a very long time now. It's worth it! I hope

This thread specifically has brought my attention towards European brands I didn't know existed. Knipex, Wiha, Wera, Facom, etc. All new to me.

Don't even get me started... After joining GJ, I am now coupon hunting, searching every store for clearance, searching ebay, hunting on Cripe, and *gasp* cleaning my tool box!

I've spent more on tools since joining then I have in the last six months. Not counting machine tools...

 

[T20]

I'd email Wiha and ask them, just to make sure. Maybe they'll send you one with the stamp. I know when I'm around anything dangerous, I like to see that kind of labeling on the product to put a bit of confidence in me. If it's not there, I "know" the product is still good, but it feels like of awkward.

All right. I did overcome my lazyness and asked Wiha.

They said that those bitflip handles are tested but due to changes in IEC 60900 they aren't allowed to use any check characters or VDE stamps with these type of bit drivers anymore.
As far as I understood, it's that the changes were made regarding whether a bit is held just by a magnet or locked with a different mechanism. While removing the handle after use, the magnet could loose the bit that might stick to an electrical contact and cause danger.
On account of these changes, they seemed to have developed the new SlimVario blade system with insulated bits. I found this here:

Seems to have a locking mechanism instead of just a magnet.

I know now that my bit driver is tested, they just could have mentioned it on the package, like they did on the Wiha US site I think. But anyway. I'm pleased with it so far and rather stick to it as I can use standard bits with it, instead of changing to a propietary system with special bits by a certain company.

But all told nice to know. That problem never came to my mind!

 

[AutomatiquE]

@mrtools : the Hazet breaker bar is 396mm lenght.
@Jure : Nice Unior flare wrenches


Facom 2011 sales, found in a local store. Locking plier+centerpunch for EUR 43.- Couldn't resist :







Facom "501"






Chrome-Molybdene jaws






Non-rolling profile

 

[Jure]

@mrtools : the Hazet breaker bar is 396mm lenght.
@Jure : Nice Unior flare wrenches


Facom 2011 sales, found in a local store. Locking plier+centerpunch for EUR 43.- Couldn't resist :







Facom "501"












Non-rolling profile

nice! btw i will buy 4 more flare wrench so ill complete the set

 

[american lockpicker]

or Malaysia like Bosch.

Almost all of mine are Swiss the grinder is German. If you shop around and research you can get all EU made Bosch.

Should be adding more soon...

Facom 2011 sales, found in a local store. Locking plier+centerpunch for EUR 43.

I like those locking pliers.

 

[franzdom]

I have that same planer, Swiss. Did you buy the others all in person or have to do mail order?

 

[PrecisionTools]

These Gedore pliers look nice.

 

[AutomatiquE]

@americanlockpicker : I know very well that you like the Facom "501", actually i decided to buy mine after watching one of your video on "Youtube"

@Jure : How much you paid for your 5 flare nut wrenches ? Are they made in Slovenia or imported ?

 

[pacsguy]

New tools for me..

Couldn't resist the Wera stainless steel price reductions at amazon.. Also there are two 8" felo M-Tec PH2 drivers. Got the wera 3/8" metric set at chadstoolbox.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/63611986@N08/5913364751/" title="DSC02567 by pacsguy, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6034/5913364751_5d076abf84_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC02567"></a>

The 1/2" and the 5/16" were not included in the set and had to be purchased separately.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/63611986@N08/5913364947/" title="DSC02568 by pacsguy, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6010/5913364947_180b80cf66_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC02568"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/63611986@N08/5913925946/" title="DSC02570 by pacsguy, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5271/5913925946_4dfe425d06_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC02570"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/63611986@N08/5913926600/" title="DSC02576 by pacsguy, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6003/5913926600_bd6ffb5b7e_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC02576"></a>

Hex 2.5 mm and 3 mm. Offset screwdriver.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/63611986@N08/5913926440/" title="DSC02573 by pacsguy, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5078/5913926440_2bba2eb1b3_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="DSC02573"></a>

 

[Trucky]

Almost all of mine are Swiss the grinder is German. If you shop around and research you can get all EU made Bosch.

I've found that all the corded Bosch is Swiss made, but the cordless is all Malaysia at the local stores. Meh.

Facom 2011 sales, found in a local store. Locking plier+centerpunch for EUR 43.- Couldn't resist :

Those are beautiful, and functional. Do you know where that plier is made? I might have to pick one up for myself

All right. I did overcome my lazyness and asked Wiha.

As far as I understood, it's that the changes were made regarding whether a bit is held just by a magnet or locked with a different mechanism. While removing the handle after use, the magnet could loose the bit that might stick to an electrical contact and cause danger.

I never would have guessed that. At least you know it's properly rated now.

Just be careful so you don't get

Pacs, nice sets! I was thinking about the driver set with the long bits, but I think I would be afraid to use it, I think would mess up one of the bits or something, and for that price, I don't want to risk it lol

 

[AutomatiquE]

Trucky, all Facom "serie 500" locking pliers are made in France.

 

[Trucky]

Trucky, all Facom "serie 500" locking pliers are made in France.

Good news! But man, are they expensive! I'll probably just ask for them as a Christmas present or something. The family will probably just laugh at the idea, but I can try

 

[american lockpicker]

I have that same planer, Swiss. Did you buy the others all in person or have to do mail order?

All in person at Lowes(mostly), Fastenal, and a Bosch dealer with most of the lineup. Home Depot is also a good source.

@americanlockpicker : I know very well that you like the Facom "501", actually i decided to buy mine after watching one of your video on "Youtube"

I've found that all the corded Bosch is Swiss made, but the cordless is all Malaysia at the local stores. Meh.

The 18V drills are mostly Swiss(you will need to open the box with an employee present to confirm COO as it varies) and the 18V cordless grinder is German, the 12V sheetmetal cutter is Swiss and maybe some other stuff.

 

[mrtools]

@mrtools:
- Thanks.
- Speakers are "Made in Brazil" brand Akron.
- No, I not fanatic, almost ...
Details of my saga:

Oh, I see

Thank for forum link sadly I am not understand your language.
Btw : looks at a pic it awesome project congratulation
Nice to meets Brazilian Audio Fanatic

@BigRussian_from_NYC

Nice Knipex pliers, Wiha, and Klien
They all awesome pliers Manufacturer
sadly not Channellock
Are you electrician? if yes
What your opinion with a Felo insulated screwdrivers?

Or just for collection

bought unior open end wrenches... dimensions are fu..ed up,if you buy a set you will have 5 keys with the same size lol

Nice Unior do you used it?

@mrtools : the Hazet breaker bar is 396mm lenght.

Thanks
Nice and elegant Facom
maybe I need to buy one from my Facom local suppliers

New tools for me..
Couldn't resist the Wera stainless steel price reductions at amazon.. Also there are two 8" felo M-Tec PH2 drivers. Got the wera 3/8" metric set at chadstoolbox.

Congratulations
Nice tools Wera tools fanatic?

 

[PrecisionTools]

PB Swiss Hex/Torx L-wrenches don't get much attention. Great range and innovation in some of their designs. Even get them gold plated if you want! Or Titanium if your more practical.

 

[Olafur]

Farnell COO declarations are not reliable.

Thanks. Actually I suspected as much. The definition: "Country in which last significant manufacturing process was carried out." only goes so far. Even if correctly stated it only tells part of the story.

Oldskool English hacksaw

I am not sure but I think my father had one like this.

You can wait for Iceland to enter the EU and things will ease, or maybe have someone buying it and then sent to you... or maybe a tools trip to Europe .

I think I will have to wait for a very long time for Iceland to join the EU. Until then I use ebay.de/uk/fr/com. I would like use local dealers to keep them alive and maintain some kind of service alive over here, but at current prices it is just not possible.
----
@BigRussian_from_NYC ; Nice pliers collection!!

 

[Jure]

Nice Unior do you used it?

got em yesterday,i will use em,yesterday just did a test how they are sitting on the bolt (6 point one) and they are awesome!

 

[Jure]

@americanlockpicker : I know very well that you like the Facom "501", actually i decided to buy mine after watching one of your video on "Youtube"

@Jure : How much you paid for your 5 flare nut wrenches ? Are they made in Slovenia or imported ?

@ Filip,they are made in slovenia,i paid for smallest one around 13 E large one was around 20, 5 was 90-95 E

 

[AutomatiquE]

@Jure : Ok thank you.

@Trucky : I just wanted to add some precision about Facom locking pliers and teir COO. Please, read this :

- Facom locking pliers T.5L/T5.L65/T5.L100/T5.1L/500/501/506/511/516/505 are 100% made in France.
- 580/582.7 are rebadged "lockjaws". Made in China.
- 507A/509 : I don't know the COO, maybe made in Taiwan.
- 513/517/502A/504A/503/512/514A/520A : Probably made by "Grip on" in spain.

 

[Jure]

any info about this? its made in china or?

 

[servito]

I think I will have to wait for a very long time for Iceland to join the EU. Until then I use ebay.de/uk/fr/com. I would like use local dealers to keep them alive and maintain some kind of service alive over here, but at current prices it is just not possible.
----

I would like to support my local dealers, too, as long as they would like to keep me as a customer, not pulling my leg always with retail prices, never doing any sales at all. Hence I usually buy at ebay.de/uk and sometimes at amazon.uk/de

One thing that I don't understand is why amazon.de does not offer free shipping to my country whereas amazon.uk does. If they did I would buy from them more often.

 

[BigRussian_from_NYC]

any info about this? its made in china or?

The company is US-based, http://www.proxxontools.com/, but all tools look cheaply made, most-likely China-made

 

[BigRussian_from_NYC]

@BigRussian_from_NYC

Nice Knipex pliers, Wiha, and Klien
They all awesome pliers Manufacturer
sadly not Channellock
Are you electrician? if yes
What your opinion with a Felo insulated screwdrivers?

Or just for collection

@mrtools
Electrical engineer, but I do all of my electrical/mechanical/plumbing/construction work around house myself.
Regarding my comment about Channellock: @ Home Depot or Lowes, average price for a pair of Channellock pliers is $16-$20. Heck, I would just add another $5 and buy a German-made Knipex instead. I have noticed that steel quality of Channellock had gone down over the years significantly, new pliers do not hold the cutting edge long, riveted joints develop play, etc. Also, Channellocks are rather made crudly these days, the real craftsmanship and quality are long gone, but none of this applies to old Channellock pliers (1960's), they were real tools back then. I have an old Channellock 8" diagonal cutter made in early 1960s, the plastic handles had peeled off 20 years ago, but cutting edge is still perfect and the rivet joint is still solid, no play at all, both halves are symmetrical and match each other.
By the way, went to Home Depot last night, saw a pair of linesman Klein pliers MADE IN MEXICO!!! for $39.97!!! Hell's no, I'm not buying that ****! Sadly, here goes another quality brand
The Felo insulated screwdrivers are quite good and comfortable, were made in Germany.
The Ergonic handles have hard and soft lobes, excellent fit in your hands and you can squize them to get more grip while you tighten some screws. Tips are hard and match screws perfectly, the way it should be.

 

[PrecisionTools]

PB Swiss SWISSGRIP.

Torx, Phillips, Pozidrive, Pozidrive/Slotted, Slotted

 

[ultgar]

@Jure : Ok thank you.

@Trucky : I just wanted to add some precision about Facom locking pliers and teir COO. Please, read this :

- Facom locking pliers T.5L/T5.L65/T5.L100/T5.1L/500/501/506/511/516/505 are 100% made in France.
- 580/582.7 are rebadged "lockjaws". Made in China.
- 507A/509 : I don't know the COO, maybe made in Taiwan.
- 513/517/502A/504A/503/512/514A/520A : Probably made by "Grip on" in spain.

Been getting a lot of Facom stock in lately.......country of origin is all over the place....France, Germany, UK, Spain, Italy, US, Taiwan and China. Received a 517 lockgrip plier set yesterday and this has changed drastically now that its made in China. Finish and machining on the set are not typical Facom.....need to make sure the rest of the 500 series lockgrips doesn't go downhill.

Here's the Chinese 517.6 photo details.....see http://www.ultimategarage.com/shop/part.php?products_id=4283 . The consumers want cheap pricing and this is what the manufacturer's are giving us. SD

 

[FARA]

any info about this? its made in china or?

Taiwan

 

[Trucky]

PB Swiss Hex/Torx L-wrenches don't get much attention. Great range and innovation in some of their designs. Even get them gold plated if you want! Or Titanium if your more practical.

I would have some of their hex keys if I didn't already have a Bondhus set. I was looking at their website, and I think the Titanium ones are just that. Made of titanium... it may explain the ~$300 price tag

@Jure : Ok thank you.

@Trucky : I just wanted to add some precision about Facom locking pliers and teir COO. Please, read this :

- Facom locking pliers T.5L/T5.L65/T5.L100/T5.1L/500/501/506/511/516/505 are 100% made in France.
- 580/582.7 are rebadged "lockjaws". Made in China.
- 507A/509 : I don't know the COO, maybe made in Taiwan.
- 513/517/502A/504A/503/512/514A/520A : Probably made by "Grip on" in spain.

Merci! I had started to look around a bit myself but this helps a lot.

Been getting a lot of Facom stock in lately.......country of origin is all over the place....France, Germany, UK, Spain, Italy, US, Taiwan and China. Received a 517 lockgrip plier set yesterday and this has changed drastically now that its made in China. Finish and machining on the set are not typical Facom.....need to make sure the rest of the 500 series lockgrips doesn't go downhill.

Here's the Chinese 517.6 photo details.....see http://www.ultimategarage.com/shop/part.php?products_id=4283 . The consumers want cheap pricing and this is what the manufacturer's are giving us. SD

Yuck! I'm not buying that. What the heck are they thinking

 

[american lockpicker]

Taiwan

All the handtools are from Taiwan but most of the powertools are from Luxembourg.

 

[PrecisionTools]

I was looking at their website, and I think the Titanium ones are just that. Made of titanium... it may explain the ~$300 price tag

Yep...all Ti, not plated.

 

[Jure]

thanks guys,seems like i will stay away from proxxon lol

 

[Monte]

I thought Barcelona is a big city with a lot of stores
if Bhae don´t get back to you you could try www.irimo.es



Looks like "Wiha Classic" ?


@cliceu
very nice Stahlwille, Wiha, NWS, Wera, Top.... tools + pictures !!!!!!
Are the Gedore pliers VDE tested (insulated) ? Because they have "1000V" printed on them ?
But the Gedore insulated VDE pliers have red/blue handles ??

@Monte : Both Hilti drills are presents from my father and both bought in France in 2004/2005. I don't use them very often, only when needed for some houseworks but they always perform well. Also, a Fein BOP-2 is still on my wish list...

nice presents !!! Can you adopt me ?? i want presents from Hilti too

I am torn! I am usually good at deciding, however I can't pick one. I need a 1/2" ratchet! I only have 2 in 3/8, and one in 1/4. I want something from Europe.

take a look at the pics Cliceu just posted maybe it helps for your decision

Perhaps here we have the difference between a German and an Icelander
I was so happy finding wiha pliers on sale I did not care I did not find any pin punches. Of course this makes no sense - a pin punch mission is NOT accomplished without any pin punches. Your logical and well organized German brain spotted this in a second!

To buy "on sale" items is more important than to accomplish the pin punch mission

I sometimes work on full size trucks (Scania, MAN, e.t.c), construction machinery ,modified 4x4 SUV's and so on. Actually it is not bad idea to have one 3/4" braker bar and 3/4-1/2 connector (or few 3/4" sockets) for the DIY guy. This takes the strain off the 1/2" gear like braker bars. Cheap 3/4" T-bar can handle much more than even the best 1/2" brakers.

i want a Hazet set like yours so badly They have the coolest looking sockets and nice metal tool cases in this nice Hazet blue with the Hazet badge on the lid

Does Facom make wrenches in Taiwan and France? Or italy too??

I'm confused -.-

everywhere aside from France i guess

While it lacks a lot of the practical design features of US folders, my Maserin knives are very nice to look at! Like a lot of things Italian, sometimes function can be secondary to design...

nice looking knive !

http://www.facom.com/fr-en/i-59-Manufacturer.html

This isn't too helpful for the items in question, but gives a little info. The ratchet has no mention of the 161 series being made in Italy.... or anything about the wrenches... a little fishy if you ask me.

I do have a 14 piece set of metric 440 wrenches, $110 shipped to the States. Regardless where they are made, they are a quality set for a reasonable price.

Thanks for the link ! interesting tool box manufacturing video !

Knipex Cobras, 7" and 12":

nice pliers + screwdriver collection !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ps: Where did you find the "Will" pliers ?

Malaysia like Bosch.

They had swiss made 18 Volt cordless drills, the 18V angle grinder is made in germany, the rotary hammer too, cordless jigsaw is from switzerland, the large impact wrench "Made/Assembled in USA" . Bosch has the least amount of outsourced cordless products compared to the other major players. Of course some products are from Malaysia (drills, impact drivers) or China (Cordless recipro saw) which can´t be that bad since the Bosch recipro saw is sold as "Snap-On" too.

All right. I did overcome my lazyness and asked Wiha.

Thanks for the info !

Facom 2011 sales, found in a local store. Locking plier+centerpunch for EUR 43.- Couldn't resist :

ohhh nice !!! The locking pliers of my dreams !!!

- 507A/509 : I don't know the COO, maybe made in Taiwan.

They have this french look....

New tools for me..

sweet Wera + Felo tools

any info about this? its made in china or?

China or Taiwan. Wrenches + sockets are from Taiwan AFAIK

PB Swiss SWISSGRIP.

nice tools from switzerland

Been getting a lot of Facom stock in lately.......country of origin is all over the place....France, Germany, UK, Spain, Italy, US, Taiwan and China. Received a 517 lockgrip plier set yesterday and this has changed drastically now that its made in China. Finish and machining on the set are not typical Facom.....need to make sure the rest of the 500 series lockgrips doesn't go downhill.

Here's the Chinese 517.6 photo details.....see http://www.ultimategarage.com/shop/part.php?products_id=4283 . The consumers want cheap pricing and this is what the manufacturer's are giving us. SD

damn Stanley

ps: which products are made in Germany except the Cable Sheath Stripper ? Crimping pliers ? Swivel Suction Cups ?

 

[Trucky]

They had swiss made 18 Volt cordless drills, the 18V angle grinder is made in germany, the rotary hammer too, cordless jigsaw is from switzerland, the large impact wrench "Made/Assembled in USA" . Bosch has the least amount of outsourced cordless products compared to the other major players. Of course some products are from Malaysia (drills, impact drivers) or China (Cordless recipro saw) which can´t be that bad since the Bosch recipro saw is sold as "Snap-On" too.

The only things I were looking at was the drills and impacts, so forgive me if I appear a bit miffed that none of the battery powered ones are from Switzerland. Looks like i'm buying a few more extension cords! If I had a use for the other stuff, I'd buy it.

 

[bimmer630]

Here`s the answer

There is also a "KS-Tools" version

but this one from Facom seems to be a little bit different

I own one from blue-point

Nice Collection. Ive tried to collect a few Facom, Hazet, Stahlwille tools. they are great

 

[y20dth]

I thought Proxxon was German?

I have some proxxon stuff, and although it is not Hazet or Stahlwille, it is very well made, especially if you look at the price. a lot of tool for your €/$.

Downside are the size-markings. They are burned/lasered on, meaning you need to wipe them of when looking for a certain size.
No knurling on sockets either, so a bit more difficult to work with in tight spaces and dirty conditions.