Tools from the old world

[mr.lemons]

Done a lot of filing,

Cheers Dave. Hardest metal I use files on is sharpening old tools with damaged blades. Reason for liking diamond files is that I find them easier to use than normal files because they don't snag and can be used in any direction. They work particularly well on thin plastic where a normal file can snag and snap the plastic. May be a little user error on my end.

Hadn't seen MDT before. Thay are rather pricey.

 

[_Ben_]

Don't let that stop you. Maybe you need a travel tool set or a clean set for in the house or a set just for electrical work etc etc.

Officer thinking!

Fein die grinder - fed up with my overheating Dremel. Fein branded Systainer and foam inserts courtesy of eBay..

View media item 101195
Some Knipex goodies.

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View media item 101192
View media item 101193
View media item 101194

 

[upgrading]

Nice Knipex stuff

 

[Kasal]

19 mm magnetized Famon socket, Knipex Cobra 150mm and 1 liter claw.

 

[Reed Prince]

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_-jCV2iDaDc" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[mr.lemons]

^ Both look interesting. Trade show coming up in a couple of weeks so I should get to have a play with them.

Also some new tools from Knipex here.

https://www.knipex.com/en/innovations2020/

100mm Cobra XS. Not sure how the adjustment works. 'Single-handed fine adjustment - simply slide for optimal fitting to various workpiece sizes.'

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7ha9_4Q3UE8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[rice rocket]

That Joker open end ratching looks interesting, head looks huge for how little adjustment it has though (10-13mm?). I wonder how much clamping force it provides vs the pliers wrenches.

 

[mr.lemons]

Looks like there will be five sizes.

X Small 7-10mm
Small 10-13mm
Med 13-16mm
Large 16-19mm
XL 24-32mm

Spotted a similar tool

 

[upgrading]

The Joker stuff looks very interesting.

Hopefully the trade shows are not canceled and we can hear more.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Spotted a similar tool.

Me too. In my antique wrench collection. That Wera Joker looks, and looks as if it functions, exactly like the SPEED-NUT wrench first patented here in the US in 1914. More info in a thread down on the Vintage Discussion board linked here.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

But that's now why I'm posting. I came up here to ask if anyone knows anything about this wedge-adjust type adjustable wrench. My example is 6" OAL, but they came in 8", 12" and longer. Mine has a faint, worn mark that seems to be "SUL." Fellow GJ member roy_olson has an 8-incher that has the "SUL" mark, but also a marking that looks like this...

HAxxxER
SCxxMAN
GExxxxY

...where that last word is most likely GERMANY.

Can anyone fill in the blanks on the name? And if that's the OEM, what is "SUL"?

 

[superautobacs]

100mm Cobra XS. Not sure how the adjustment works. 'Single-handed fine adjustment - simply slide for optimal fitting to various workpiece sizes.'

I think they just adopted Orbis' Speedy mechanism-a mechanism I first saw on Unior and later DEEN's WP pliers (both Orbis made). The "single-handed fine adjustment" is likely more marketing than reality. You could do it, but not efficiently. The key point is that you don't need to depress a button to make adjustments.

Wera's JOKER 6004... I knew I've seen it somewhere before....but didn't think it was as old an idea that Private Lugnutz uncovered. It's really another example of a reminder on how "new" innovations in hand tools is actually not new at all.

In more recent years, I saw Signet (there was another American name, but can't remember any more) offered these:

Wera's JOKER 6003... Another old idea .... just with a Wera facelift.
I first saw this design on a Unior wrench (I have a few, but no photo handy), and TOPTUL had as well. But it's quite likely that this design was invented/patented a century ago.

In actual use, these are quirky to work with. You have to make sure you insert the open end all the way, otherwise you will round the corners of the object you're trying to turn or the wrench itself.

TOPTUL used only offered it in stubby:

but now offer them in their SuperTorque series wrenches too:

 

[OMMP]

But that's now why I'm posting. I came up here to ask if anyone knows anything about this wedge-adjust type adjustable wrench. My example is 6" OAL, but they came in 8", 12" and longer. Mine has a faint, worn mark that seems to be "SUL." Fellow GJ member roy_olson has an 8-incher that has the "SUL" mark, but also a marking that looks like this...

HAxxxER
SCxxMAN
GExxxxY

...where that last word is most likely GERMANY.

Can anyone fill in the blanks on the name? And if that's the OEM, what is "SUL"?

Looks like Hanover and Schuman

 

[Skin]

That Joker open end ratching looks interesting, head looks huge for how little adjustment it has though (10-13mm?). I wonder how much clamping force it provides vs the pliers wrenches.

The other issue is the pivoting handle so you're going to need some good area to swing it. Im not sure I can think of a single scenario where that would be easier or even necessary on a single fastener where a ratcheting box end wouldn't fit.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Looks like Hanover and Schuman

Thank you, sir.

EDIT: Follow-up - Anybody ever hear of them? Cursory searches not turning up anything. Maybe an import/export house. And SUL was the OEM?

 

[Qualitytools]

^ Both look interesting. Trade show coming up in a couple of weeks so I should get to have a play with them.

Also some new tools from Knipex here.

https://www.knipex.com/en/innovations2020/

100mm Cobra XS. Not sure how the adjustment works. 'Single-handed fine adjustment - simply slide for optimal fitting to various workpiece sizes.'

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7ha9_4Q3UE8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Great things, always improving, thanks for sharing

 

[mr.lemons]

Me too. In my antique wrench collection. That Wera Joker looks, and looks as if it functions, exactly like the SPEED-NUT wrench first patented here in the US in 1914.

Wow. Very nice.



Wera Innovations and Spring / Summer Campaign 2020

'We've been hard at work, and are happy to now reveal some new products for you, including some range face-lifts - and three new blockbuster innovations!'

https://products.wera.de/en/innovations_and_spring__summer_campaign_2020.html

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Wow. Very nice.

Thank you, sir. It's funny. My participation on this thread consistently falls into one of two categories: (1) queries about vintage European tools I can't identify or have further questions about, or (2) commenting on new-fangled European tools that seem to be take-offs on 100-year-old old-fangled USA tools! Seriously. I was just as jaw-droppingly astonished a few years ago by the new line of FACOM cles-a-pipes wrenches, which Braunsdorf-Mueller and Vlchek were making here in in the US 100 years ago. And I say that not with scorn but full admiration for their resistance to change for change sake, and their insistence on elegant simplicity and function over form, no matter how regressive it seems.

 

[mobiledynamics]

I got quite some Hazet, Knipex, some Wera, and my Hilti's are made from the OW....

Was quite surprised today. Was thinking PRC....my copper Press Jaws/Dies came in (for copper plumbing press fittings). Ridgid - the dies were made in Romania. Wasn't expecting said Ridgid brand to be coming from there...

 

[JBH]

I’m surprised by the new Wera adjustable wrenches’ limited span. They don’t seem like they’d save any space compared to DOE wrenches, and the set is much bulkier than a pliers wrench/Powergrip. Unless the whole set costs less than a 10” pliers wrench I don’t see it.

However, I want that 4” baby Cobra Speedy. No idea why; just do.

 

[Reed Prince]

These Knipex 29 25 160 slim long nose pliers came today. $20 off from Amazon warehouse because of "damaged packaging". Tool is fine. Quite a bit shorter than my other Knipex long nose, which are often bigger than I need. I also like that the new ones have a crosshatch jaw pattern.

edit: I see they are called telephone pliers in stores other than Amazon.

 

[Kasal]

Some things about Knipex.

 

[mr.lemons]

PB Swiss 'Innovations 2020'

Cannot see anything new apart from some packaging but always nice to look at PB Swiss anyway.

https://www.pbswisstools.com/en/tools/quality-hand-tools/innovations/innovations/#c15435

Didn't know the short end on their allen keys could be used at different angles.

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[Dave455]

PB Swiss 'Innovations 2020'

Cannot see anything new apart from some packaging but always nice to look at PB Swiss anyway.

Didn't know the short end on their allen keys could be used at different angles.

Generally, you can’t use the short end at different angles. I’m guessing that’s the innovation!

 

[JBH]

A few recents from amazon.de and other sources:

First, Wiha System 6 (Drive Loc VI). The whole kit, with metric and AF nutdrivers and all bits. (The kit did not come with PZ1 + PZ2, so I added it.) Overpriced, but I think I’ll get use out of it. It's different enough that it won't walk out of the place, unlike standard bits. Also, I have a few System 6 handles now (Topra clutch ratchet, Dynamic collet, Dynamic Microfinish collet, Softfinish ball bearing) so insert a few needed blades/nutdriver and it’s more like carrying regular screwdrivers than bits.

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Wera hex plus keys. The short set is metric.

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I’ve never seen an SAE hex screw, but the price was so low that I did not feel bad basically buying that set for the nice cloth case, and just in case.

Second, two staples for the kiddie tool box. Goal is to keep them out of my stuff!

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Hazet was one of the least expensive 27mm soft face hammers on amazon.de at the time of purchase. Cobras are just overall super useful.

Hazet bit screwdriver, Gedore 1/4” drive composite T-ratchet, Gedore 3/8” to hex bit adapter.

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Hazet has a great handle shape but considering the bit is secured both by magnet and collar there is more play than expected. It was also about 8 bucks, so…

Gedore’s ratchets are uniformly excellent in feel (low backdrag) and precision (low backlash). I’m thinking this one with an extension and bit adapter may be useful when high torque is required. You can get more power behind this handle than the Williams/Snapon baby stingray t-handle.

The bag for the bit adapter said made in Taiwan. It looks no different from their German socketry. COO snobs may be offended. I’m happy with the great quality and lower price (6 or 7 bucks). The retainer ball held on by outer clip keeps the bit very stable in the holder.

There’s been some discussion here about Gedore socketry not playing nice with USAG/Facom QR ratchets. This one holds without issue.

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And the best for last: Wera 2020 Osterei-satz.

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I’m not sure why KC Tool didn’t import this set, because it’s a great complement of tools to stash in, for example, an audio equipment rack. You’ll typically need a 2.5mm slotted, 1.5mm hex, and PH2 ready available. Add PZ1 if you use Neutrik speaker connectors.

The 4mm bit handle is tops, as expected. Wera really needs to offer this as a separate piece and expand their 4mm bit range. The thin stubby is also surprisingly comfortable in the fingers.

Wera hex plus is my choice for hex bits, so it’s no surprise their 4mm hex plus bits are so excellent. The pleasant surprise was the hollow ground slotted tip, unlike their precision drivers. Here’s a comparison of Wera 2.5mm SL bit and 2.5mm precision screwdriver.

View media item 101392
And a larger roundup:
View media item 101390

Wiha likewise has a hollow ground slotted 4mm bit and wedge-shaped tip on the fixed driver. precision driver tip. I think only PB Swiss Swissgrip (not the old style, at top left which has a Swiss norm beveled parallel tip) fixed drivers are hollow ground. Felo and PB Swiss interchangeable blade screwdrivers hollow ground. 4mm blades from Wiha and Engineer are wedges. Fixed drivers from Engineer and Facom/USAG are also wedged. From memory, Oplast and Witte are also wedge tips, but they weren’t easily at hand. The other 4mm bit set I have is Würth, with wedge tip slotted bits.

Oddly, these 4mm Wera bits are a little longer than standard. While I wouldn’t expect that to be an issue in most cases, they actually have shorter neck down than Wiha. If Wera had doubled the length machined down to 2.5mm, the bit could work more deeply recessed fasteners. Then they’d basically be perfect.

View media item 101393

 

[OMMP]

A few recents from amazon.de and other sources:

First, Wiha System 6 (Drive Loc VI). The whole kit, with metric and AF nutdrivers and all bits. (The kit did not come with PZ1 + PZ2, so I added it.) Overpriced, but I think I’ll get use out of it. It's different enough that it won't walk out of the place, unlike standard bits. Also, I have a few System 6 handles now (Topra clutch ratchet, Dynamic collet, Dynamic Microfinish collet, Softfinish ball bearing) so insert a few needed blades/nutdriver and it’s more like carrying regular screwdrivers than bits.

View media item 101143
Wera hex plus keys. The short set is metric.

View media item 101385
I’ve never seen an SAE hex screw, but the price was so low that I did not feel bad basically buying that set for the nice cloth case, and just in case.

Second, two staples for the kiddie tool box. Goal is to keep them out of my stuff!

View media item 101386
Hazet was one of the least expensive 27mm soft face hammers on amazon.de at the time of purchase. Cobras are just overall super useful.

Hazet bit screwdriver, Gedore 1/4” drive composite T-ratchet, Gedore 3/8” to hex bit adapter.

View media item 101388
Hazet has a great handle shape but considering the bit is secured both by magnet and collar there is more play than expected. It was also about 8 bucks, so…

Gedore’s ratchets are uniformly excellent in feel (low backdrag) and precision (low backlash). I’m thinking this one with an extension and bit adapter may be useful when high torque is required. You can get more power behind this handle than the Williams/Snapon baby stingray t-handle.

The bag for the bit adapter said made in Taiwan. It looks no different from their German socketry. COO snobs may be offended. I’m happy with the great quality and lower price (6 or 7 bucks). The retainer ball held on by outer clip keeps the bit very stable in the holder.

There’s been some discussion here about Gedore socketry not playing nice with USAG/Facom QR ratchets. This one holds without issue.

View media item 101387
And the best for last: Wera 2020 Osterei-satz.

View media item 101389
I’m not sure why KC Tool didn’t import this set, because it’s a great complement of tools to stash in, for example, an audio equipment rack. You’ll typically need a 2.5mm slotted, 1.5mm hex, and PH2 ready available. Add PZ1 if you use Neutrik speaker connectors.

The 4mm bit handle is tops, as expected. Wera really needs to offer this as a separate piece and expand their 4mm bit range. The thin stubby is also surprisingly comfortable in the fingers.

Wera hex plus is my choice for hex bits, so it’s no surprise their 4mm hex plus bits are so excellent. The pleasant surprise was the hollow ground slotted tip, unlike their precision drivers. Here’s a comparison of Wera 2.5mm SL bit and 2.5mm precision screwdriver.

View media item 101392
And a larger roundup:
View media item 101390

Wiha likewise has a hollow ground slotted 4mm bit and wedge-shaped tip on the fixed driver. precision driver tip. I think only PB Swiss Swissgrip (not the old style, at top left which has a Swiss norm beveled parallel tip) fixed drivers are hollow ground. Felo and PB Swiss interchangeable blade screwdrivers hollow ground. 4mm blades from Wiha and Engineer are wedges. Fixed drivers from Engineer and Facom/USAG are also wedged. From memory, Oplast and Witte are also wedge tips, but they weren’t easily at hand. The other 4mm bit set I have is Würth, with wedge tip slotted bits.

Oddly, these 4mm Wera bits are a little longer than standard. While I wouldn’t expect that to be an issue in most cases, they actually have shorter neck down than Wiha. If Wera had doubled the length machined down to 2.5mm, the bit could work more deeply recessed fasteners. Then they’d basically be perfect.

View media item 101393

Few things... After the purchase of these few things did your lady divorce you?

 

[JBH]

Few things... After the purchase of these few things did your lady divorce you?

I’m pretty sure a simple 1/4” socket set from one of the US white van brands would cost more than the tools in that post cost me!

 

[OMMP]

Good catch, then. Or... Because of the white vans, no one, I mean no one, should put a mortgage over tools

 

[Reed Prince]

And the best for last: Wera 2020 Osterei-satz.

I bought one of those too, after being alerted here of a one day Wera sale at Amazon.de. I picked up last year's Easter Egg Set in November, when Amazon had them on sale for a few days. Already owned the standard green one, but the price was right and perhaps the stainless steel version will be the perfect tool for some task in the future.

 

[JBH]

To be honest in real world usage you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between most Hex bits or even Hex key sets especially if you're already comparing good brands or COO's.

In real world usage, I rounded a 2mm hex screw with a bit (Toptul or USAG, don't remember). I tried to get the screw out with bits from Wiha and Würth, and keys from Bondhus, Gedore, and VBW (presumably HaFu based on the case). Then as a last resort I tried a Wera precision screwdriver. Wera gripped the hex opening well enough to back the fastener out.

Since then, I've replaced all the hex bits in every bit set with Wera hex plus.

The reason is not anything stupid and irrelevant like COO. The reason is simple design superiority of hex plus over flat-faced hex. I like Bondhus pricing a lot better, but can't argue with results. It's possible that the advantage dissipates with larger keys/bits. I'd rather not find out. It's also possible that hex plus keys/bits will be shorter lived because of the extra strain on the corners. That's a fine tradeoff to me.

In my opinion for 4mm microbits you don't need hollow ground.

You're arguing with yourself. My only subjective comment was that the hollow ground tip was "a pleasant surprise." Everything else on the subject was merely descriptive - x has this style tip, y has that style tip.

Otherwise skip slotted unless the screw requires it (there are Phillips/Slotted or Pozidriv/Slotted screws but those are intended to be used ideally with combination drivers)

Believe it or not, the fastener determines the tool. My primary use for small slotted screwdrivers is Phoenix connectors. At least in the styles I see most often, these connectors have captive screws with 2.5 or 3 mm slots.

4mm microbits aren't standardized.

All the others I've seen - admittedly a small universe: Wiha, Würth, discarded sets from Husky and iFixit - were the same length. I assume everyone just copied Wiha. Wera's are a bit longer. That's neither here nor there, just an observation. I would have liked the smaller diameter heads to be necked down lower, so they could engage more deeply recessed fasteners.

Obviously categories of small bits other than 4mm hex are out of the scope of a discussion of 4mm hex bits.

 

[SRSemenza]

I am thinking that the 4mm Wera 822 is an older model? And being phased out through special sets. They have the one that takes the HIOS (?) and halfmoon bits now. So Wera probably wants to get people buying that system rather than the 4mm.

Seth

 

[mr.lemons]

Gedore 1993 TU-10 Telescopic Reversible 1/2" Drive Ratchet.

Posted about this ratchet before but just watched a video on it. The direction switch has three positions with a lock in the middle presumably so it can be used as a breaker bar. Not seen this feature before and would be interested to know if using the locked position protects the mechanism.

Link to vid. (Ratchet is at about 30 mins into the vid)

 

[JBH]

I am thinking that the 4mm Wera 822 is an older model? And being phased out through special sets. They have the one that takes the HIOS (?) and halfmoon bits now.

Wera's had the wildly overpriced Hios set for at least 5 years. Their 822 hex bit handle made its first appearance ca. 2017.

 

[measuredtwice]

Nice photos as usual, JBH. Nice to see the side-by-side comparisons.

I had been looking at that Hazet bit holder but I'm no longer interested based on the feedback. Good to know.

I disagree that COO is stupid. To me saying it's stupid is stupid but I don't mean any disrespect to you. You are a valued content contributor to the forum not a shill. We just have a major disagreement on that topic. One should not make an assumption about the quality based on COO. I agree with that. But downplaying COO as stupid only benefits China and shills that push that propaganda. Economies depend on COO. There's nothing at all stupid about COO.

 

[rice rocket]

Not seen this feature before and would be interested to know if using the locked position protects the mechanism.

I'd say extremely doubtful.

Most of these mechanisms are just a set of ramped teeth sitting against another set of teeth. To "protect" it, you would need to drop a pin in on the rotating bit, which would be nearly impossible given the number of gear positions. If you had to rotate it to a certain position to lock it, then it might exist, but then you would have to reset the position to switch from forwards to backwards, which would be a royal pain in the ***.

 

[measuredtwice]

To be honest in real world usage you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between most Hex bits or even Hex key sets especially if you're already comparing good brands or COO's.

I do like Wera's hex plus. I have noticed a difference in performance. I have several brands that I enjoy using but for some stuff I do prefer the hex plus over regular hex. I paid less than $4 from KC Tool for the set. They're the shorter ones. I haven't bought the more expensive sets but I would.

In my opinion for 4mm microbits you don't need hollow ground. It's optional.

Everything can be considered as optional. I do like the hollow grind and I do prefer it. I got into PB Swiss specifically because my wedge shaped Wiha slotted precision drivers were damaging screws. I now have the precision drivers with the Swiss style parallel tips (older) and the hollow ground tips (newer) from PB Swiss for that reason. No more damaged fasteners.

 

[mr.lemons]

Orbis. New products 2020.

http://www.orbiswill.de/fileadmin/orbiswill/pdf/Neuheiten_2020_Druckbogen.pdf

 

[OMMP]

Stahlwille is my favorite... Or one of few. However, though I have sort of urge for tools, this is my only sort of decent sockets set.

 

[measuredtwice]

If I encounter any situation where I need Hex Plus (and keep in mind that I have Hex Plus) I can always use a twisted hex key or wrench which works just as effectively and efficiently. In real world usage I've yet to see a difference with Hex Plus versus other good Hex bits or Hex wrenches. Just for comparison I used Hex Plus wrenches and bits and compared with Bondhus and Taiwanese twisted hex key sets. I saw little to no difference in performance. The Wera Hex Plus wrench set was the Blacklaser Imperial and Metric sets.

I'm not exactly sure I understand your meaning of "twisted hex key". If you are talking about a damaged tool, then it is not going to have the uniform shape of a hex-plus key. Twisting is random. You might be lucky and get a twist just right that you can wedge it into a damaged fastener. Or you may be causing more damage by using it.

(For other readers who may be interested, I think it's worth looking at them in actual use rather than just comments on the interwebz. The German Tool Review guy on Youtube did several reviews on the hex-plus keys. They work quite well.)

Hollow grind doesn't matter for precision work. It's there to minimize cam-out and grip the screw better. However a precision bit holder with a non hollow ground slotted bit will grip and hold the slotted bit just as effectively.

You repeated what you said previously. I disagree. Because of the wedge shaped tip, the Wiha drivers distort the shape of the slot on stainless precision screws with frequent use. This becomes a problem on fasteners that are frequently removed. The Swiss type and hollow ground drivers don't cause this damage. I have not talked about cam out.

 

[measuredtwice]

Twisted Hex keys exist (for additional torque and for removing damaged hex fasteners). They come in both ball-end and non ball-end versions and are made by a specific Taiwanese manufacturer (can't remember the name but they're rebranded by multiple others including Toptul https://www.toptul.com/en/2-2179-57...nt-Hex-Key-Wrench-Set-Extractor-id623263.html). Also hex plus doesn't matter for ball-end as they aren't intended for that kind of torque.

Ahh. Those look interesting.

I've seen the video by German Tool Reviews. He compared them to Bondhus and a unbranded Hex Key Set. His conclusion was that Hex Plus was better but only at the tiny Hex sizes (and even then that was against the Chinese unbranded hex keys). The bigger sizes didn't matter.

Could be. I've mostly used the small ones.

I don't remember the specifics. I think he talked about them in several videos. I remember him damaging one and not being able to remove it with the same key but being able to remove it with the hex plus.

As for stainless slotted screws you need to use a matching stainless driver. It doesn't matter the profile because it's precision work and you do not need to apply torque for small size slotted screws especially when using a precision screwdriver (you aren't going to get much torque anyways) . Otherwise change the fastener type to something other than slotted.

I'm not aware of any quality stainless precision drivers. I have full size but have not seen precision sizes.

The PB Swiss drivers are working well so there is no need to switch. Switching all the fasteners would not be practical and sometimes not desirable.